ST/WH40K wanky fanboy question.

NoDot · Post by **NoDot** » Mon Jun 08, 2009 10:12 am

For those curious what Trek has empirically (for lack of a better term) demonstrated: SD.net, right column.

Alternately, Star Wars vs Star Trek in Five Minutes (right-hand side again).

Lago PARANOIA · Post by **Lago PARANOIA** » Mon Jun 08, 2009 10:16 am

I think your website might be a wee bit biased.

NoDot · Post by **NoDot** » Mon Jun 08, 2009 10:25 am

Show where it's wrong. Names are irrelevant.

And it's not my site.

Username17 · Post by **Username17** » Mon Jun 08, 2009 11:42 am

NoDot wrote:Show where it's wrong. Names are irrelevant.

And it's not my site.

It's a fanwank rant that doesn't bother to get any facts right.

Site wrote:Hyperdrive allows us to traverse a galaxy in hours or days.

Their warp drive is so slow that they require decades to cross their galaxy.

First of all, what the fuck? Secondly, the Kessel Run is 18 Parsecs long, and it takes days to complete. Now, Star Ways takes place long ago in a galaxy far far away, so maybe it's a fucking tiny galaxy or something. But try that bullshit in the Milky Way, which is 30 thousand parsecs long, and they'll be at it for decades too.

The attached links make some tirades about assuming constant acceleration with respect to relativistic velocity that should make everyone hurl.

-Username17

NoDot · Post by **NoDot** » Mon Jun 08, 2009 9:41 pm

FrankTrollman wrote:
NoDot wrote:Show where it's wrong. Names are irrelevant.

And it's not my site.
It's a fanwank rant that doesn't bother to get any facts right.

Then e-mail him. He's probably appreciate the break from the usual idiots.

(I once suspected you two were the same person by the Hate Mail page. Obviously, I was wrong.)

Secondly, the Kessel Run is 18 Parsecs long, and it takes days to complete.

Firstly, source?

Secondly, I raise you ANH (Tatooine (Outer Rim) to Alderaan (Core World) in... hours? days?) and TPM (Maul's Corsucant (Core World) to Tatooine (Outer Rim) in ~12 hours in the movie, day and a half in the novel). As traveling through masses on energetic events in hyperspace (stars and supernova by ANH) is a bad idea, that might be the cause of the slowdown.

Now, Star Ways takes place long ago in a galaxy far far away, so maybe it's a fucking tiny galaxy or something. But try that bullshit in the Milky Way, which is 30 thousand parsecs long, and they'll be at it for decades too.

Wookieepedia says 37,000 parsecs. Got a counter-claim?

The attached links make some tirades about assuming constant acceleration with respect to relativistic velocity that should make everyone hurl.

Where? I'm not seeing relativistic velocities anywhere under sublight.

Kaelik · Post by **Kaelik** » Mon Jun 08, 2009 11:08 pm

Frank, as the resident Star Wars nerd, I'm going to say that the Kessel run is an exception to normal hyperspace speeds.

Hyperspace is fast as fuck on established routes, and still pretty fast in general.

Smaller ships are faster usually (if designed for it), so capital ships might take a few months to go the entire Galaxy.

The Kessel Run is 18 parsecs, and takes a long time, however, it is a test of the pilot and nav computer as much as the engines.

Hyperspace doesn't work the same around large gravity masses. Right next to Kessel is the infamous Maw. A giant amalgamation of thousands of black holes in very close proximity, Like, measured in miles, not light years. Thus the fucked up Hyperspace near Kessel.

No that makes no sense, but that's okay, because it was probably made by an ancient civilization that is way better then you no matter what and died for no reason anyone can tell.

Kessel run is bad example of typical Hyperspace, and the galaxy crossing is seriously like months at most.

NoDot · Post by **NoDot** » Mon Jun 08, 2009 11:18 pm

I thought that was the cause, but Wookiee didn't mention it in the article, so I disregarded it.

cthulhu · Post by **cthulhu** » Tue Jun 09, 2009 12:51 am

In which case it is entirely fucking retarded. Why scrap past the big object that slows you down when you could just fly in a rectangle and you wouldn't have a problem.

Of course the reality is hyperspace is powered by plot and it is totally irrelevant, and 'plot speed' means that movies go faster than episodic TV series, but hey

NoDot · Post by **NoDot** » Tue Jun 09, 2009 12:55 am

They're smugglers trying to avoid the patrols.

And there's personal glory.

Kaelik · Post by **Kaelik** » Tue Jun 09, 2009 1:26 am

cthulhu wrote:In which case it is entirely fucking retarded. Why scrap past the big object that slows you down when you could just fly in a rectangle and you wouldn't have a problem.

Of course the reality is hyperspace is powered by plot and it is totally irrelevant, and 'plot speed' means that movies go faster than episodic TV series, but hey

1) Smugglers slipping in the back way to get the most illegal mind altering substance in the galaxy.

2) The "Kessel Run" is a fucking race, for sport, derived from the above.

3) Hyperspace is not powered by plot. This is fucking Star Wars. The one thing we have over every single goddam sci-fi series is that we fucking have actual bullshit catalogs of how fast are ships go and how many guns they have attached. It's actually there.

I own Star Wars, Vehicles and Vessels! It's a book with no plot at all, just a bunch of info about fucking ships. I can play Star Wars Rebellion, and tell an Imperial II class Star Destroyer to fly from one side of the galaxy to the other and look at the "ETA: 113 days" before confirming.

cthulhu · Post by **cthulhu** » Tue Jun 09, 2009 1:34 am

Sure, but it's not even remotely consistent. I mean, the link above specific disregards the third party sources (including starwars rebellion where the galaxy change change in size via a drop down box which also changes transit times..) because they are inconsistent with the main sources - for example, how effective a fight pilot is.

You are explictly in disagreement with the other guy and NoDot - which tells me that the sources are inconsistent.

And powered by plot - or game difficulty.

The really retarded thing about that SW vs ST website thought is he chooses to assume that the narrator is 100% reliable except when he decides that the narrator is unreliable.

Which is why the X-wing vs Tie figher narrator is unreliable, because after all a militatary similulator program is a less accurate source than an qualified pilot talking about... wait this is entirely fucking stupid.

Kaelik · Post by **Kaelik** » Tue Jun 09, 2009 2:20 am

cthulhu wrote:Sure, but it's not even remotely consistent. I mean, the link above specific disregards the third party sources (including starwars rebellion where the galaxy change change in size via a drop down box which also changes transit times..) because they are inconsistent with the main sources - for example, how effective a fight pilot is.

So, wtf? This has nothing to do with anything. There are official sources. They are really actually consistent. I'm not making this shit up, there are actual fucking books with hyperdrive speeds, and actual books talk about people traveling distances in approximately the same frame of reference.

If anyone on any ship with hyperdrive entered hyperdrive and did not exit at all, they would arrive on the other side of the galaxy in less than a month. The fact that sometimes when flying ship A they travel a distance in 3 days, and sometimes in ship B they do it in 5 doesn't mean anything.

Trek requires multiple years to cross the galaxy. That sucks.

cthulhu wrote:You are explictly in disagreement with the other guy and NoDot - which tells me that the sources are inconsistent.

No, I'm not. I'm explicitly talking about how hyperdrive is really fucking fast, and that some ships aren't as fast as really fast ships.

I'm also talking about going from one side of the galaxy to another and plotting around mass holes, not straight distance.

The sources seriously aren't inconsistent. (Yes, Star Wars Rebellion is, being a third party source, but I was merely using an example that wowedy fuck there is no way it can possibly take more than a few months in any source at all.)

You are never going to find a source where travel from Core to Outer Rim is less than a day (The Inner Rin + Outer Rim make up about 90% of the galaxy, so getting to someplace in the inner rim from the Core isn't impressive) (NoDot is wrong here, because he is assuming that at no point in any movie did they skip time) And also at no point is it going to take more than a month and a half. Yes it varies depending on route and ship. That doesn't mean it's powered by plot.

name_here · Post by **name_here** » Tue Jun 09, 2009 2:38 am

You know, Lucasfilm has an actual cannon policy.

Tier 1: movies
Tier 2: radio dramas, novels, ICS, things written by lucas directly
Tier 3: Most of everything else
Tier 4: Game mechanics, elseworld stories.

With the exception of tier 4, you're supposed to make the sources fit together if possible.

cthulhu · Post by **cthulhu** » Tue Jun 09, 2009 2:42 am

Kaelik wrote: Trek requires multiple years to cross the galaxy. That sucks.

No seriously it doesn't.. sometimes. In trek the writers just make up whatever they want the speed to be. If you use the actual written down books as capability estimates, some trek ships can travel unlimited distances instantly, because as you get closer to the limit of warp 10, your real speed on the ground increases to infinity.

But some federation ships can travel warp 13, i.e. faster than infinitely fast.

If you use voyarger, the ships are really slow.

If you use the new movie, the ships are really fast.

Remember this is a series where the writers for one series just abandoned technology in another series because they didn't like it. Why are we trying to apply logic to plotasers and warp drives that explictly and exclusively travel at plot speed?!?!?

Nihlin · Post by **Nihlin** » Tue Jun 09, 2009 2:58 am

cthulhu wrote:
Kaelik wrote: Trek requires multiple years to cross the galaxy. That sucks.
No seriously it doesn't.. sometimes. In trek the writers just make up whatever they want the speed to be. If you use the actual written down books as capability estimates, some trek ships can travel unlimited distances instantly, because as you get closer to the limit of warp 10, your real speed on the ground increases to infinity.

But some federation ships can travel warp 13, i.e. faster than infinitely fast.

If you use voyarger, the ships are really slow.

If you use the new movie, the ships are really fast.

Remember this is a series where the writers for one series just abandoned technology in another series because they didn't like it. Why are we trying to apply logic to plotasers and warp drives that explictly and exclusively travel at plot speed?!?!?

Even if it's bullshit, you can randomly sample bullshit and derive an average bullshit value. One may statistically approach a solution, even if one cannot find a solution that describes all data perfectly.

cthulhu · Post by **cthulhu** » Tue Jun 09, 2009 3:12 am

If there is no relationship between any of the results, using statistics to arrive at any other conclusions about the results is extremely dubious. But have fun I guess?

NoDot · Post by **NoDot** » Tue Jun 09, 2009 3:14 am

cthulhu wrote:
Kaelik wrote: Trek requires multiple years to cross the galaxy. That sucks.

That's how Trek moves. It lets you have shows like Voyager (even if the execution was... botched).

If you use the actual written down books as capability estimates, some trek ships can travel unlimited distances instantly,

Only a couple of Voyager novels are canon. (And Canon policy says things can be "canon" but not "true." This probably includes Threshhold.)

But some federation ships can travel warp 13, i.e. faster than infinitely fast.

Firstly, "faster than infinitely fast" is absurd. Secondly, in TOS, speed was the cube of the Warp Factor multiplied by the speed of light. In TNG, they recallibrated the Warp Scale wo integers represented "plateaus" on the energy requirements. (e.g. Warp 5 requires less energy than Warp 4.9.) Warp 13 could mena another recalibration of the Warp Scale upon finding other plateaus, or the previous scale's infinite scalability.

Remember this is a series where the writers for one series just abandoned technology in another series because they didn't like it. Why are we trying to apply logic to plotasers and warp drives that explictly and exclusively travel at plot speed?!?!?

So it's a semi-random data set. This excludes the Scientific Method, how?

If there is no relationship between any of the results, using statistics to arrive at any other conclusions about the results is extremely dubious. But have fun I guess?

Is there really no pattern?

[edit] A new way to look at this: everything is powered by plot. Either you go by what is shown (and ST has some consistency), or you can pull out anything. Most people don't like the second. ("Does too." "Does not." "Does too." "Does not." ...)

Kaelik · Post by **Kaelik** » Tue Jun 09, 2009 3:51 am

cthulhu wrote:
Kaelik wrote: Trek requires multiple years to cross the galaxy. That sucks.
No seriously it doesn't.. sometimes. In trek the writers just make up whatever they want the speed to be. If you use the actual written down books as capability estimates, some trek ships can travel unlimited distances instantly, because as you get closer to the limit of warp 10, your real speed on the ground increases to infinity.

But some federation ships can travel warp 13, i.e. faster than infinitely fast.

If you use voyarger, the ships are really slow.

If you use the new movie, the ships are really fast.

Remember this is a series where the writers for one series just abandoned technology in another series because they didn't like it. Why are we trying to apply logic to plotasers and warp drives that explictly and exclusively travel at plot speed?!?!?

You just proved my point for me!

My point was that Star Wars is not plot powered. It has actual speeds which are generally in the same damn ballbark figure as each other, and represent the same general sets of engines.

My point was that SW is not plot powered, unlike ST.

To prove my point, you showed that ST, actual plot speed, has both decades to cross the galaxy, and infinite speed.

Compare that to Star Wars, where people travel at a constant speed like object, and the largest variance you will ever see is the millennium falcon traveling a distance in 3 days where non military ships might take as long as a week.

That's seriously large variance.

I'm not claiming that Star Wars is the greatest and way better then Trek. I have no fucking clue what Phasors even do, much less what happens when one hits a particle shield (or maybe they wouldn't do anything to particle shields, because they are lasers? WTF! I don't know and I don't care.)

I am only saying that plot does not govern speed in SW, and that plots are actually written to make sense the prior established speed. (Technically, this is even true of the original movies, because the speed didn't even exist, and it was the locations which were later arranged to make sense of what had till then been arbitrary speed X jumps.)

PhoneLobster · Post by **PhoneLobster** » Tue Jun 09, 2009 4:35 am

Kaelik wrote:This is fucking Star Wars. The one thing we have over every single goddam sci-fi series is that we fucking have actual bullshit catalogs of how fast are ships go and how many guns they have attached.

...er...

Do you read what you are saying or do you just not know anything about sci fi fans and the crap they buy?

Well anyway I guess that makes you have zero things over every single goddamn sci fi series then since every god damn sci fi series has that sort of stuff.

But then I suppose you will always have Jaja.

RandomCasualty2 · Post by **RandomCasualty2** » Tue Jun 09, 2009 4:55 am

cthulhu wrote: No seriously it doesn't.. sometimes. In trek the writers just make up whatever they want the speed to be. If you use the actual written down books as capability estimates, some trek ships can travel unlimited distances instantly, because as you get closer to the limit of warp 10, your real speed on the ground increases to infinity.

But some federation ships can travel warp 13, i.e. faster than infinitely fast.

Well the warp speed is explained somewhere that they redefine the warp definitions in different series. Warp 10 is the maximum in TNG, Voyager and DS9, but in TOS time period warp 10 is achievable.

And that's okay. The real problem with ST is that they redefine distances. In Enterprise there was some bullshit that they could get from earth to Kronos (the klingon homeworld) in like 3 days or some shit, and that's with primitive warp engines. Obviously that doesn't make any fucking sense, but they did it anyway.

Josh_Kablack · Post by **Josh_Kablack** » Tue Jun 09, 2009 4:56 am

Oh yeah, Star Wars: the Empire's forces are so very bad-ass that they can be taken down by tripwires and chimpanzees with flint tools. Swords are a major part of any infantry conflict and one of the major hazards to spaceships are giant animals that eat them.

In comparison Captain Kirk fought off an actual greek god Glowing Green Hand Sold Seperately

Koumei · Post by **Koumei** » Tue Jun 09, 2009 4:59 am

PhoneLobster wrote: But then I suppose you will always have Jaja.

That was low. Really low. I'd disqualify you for that if I didn't hate Star Wars.

NoDot · Post by **NoDot** » Tue Jun 09, 2009 5:04 am

Josh_Kablack wrote:Swords are a major part of any infantry conflict

If you must lie, pick something harder to debunk.

Jedi are not standard infantry, and no one else uses swords.

and one of the major hazards to spaceships are giant animals that eat them.

Only for small ships.

Josh_Kablack · Post by **Josh_Kablack** » Tue Jun 09, 2009 5:06 am

However, the alternate reality version where Christopher Walken played Han Solo and David Lynch directed Return of the Jedi is fun to contemplate

And no doubt already part of the 40k continuity somewhere.

Kaelik · Post by **Kaelik** » Tue Jun 09, 2009 5:07 am

PhoneLobster wrote:
Kaelik wrote:This is fucking Star Wars. The one thing we have over every single goddam sci-fi series is that we fucking have actual bullshit catalogs of how fast are ships go and how many guns they have attached.
...er...

Do you read what you are saying or do you just not know anything about sci fi fans and the crap they buy?

Well anyway I guess that makes you have zero things over every single goddamn sci fi series then since every god damn sci fi series has that sort of stuff.

So does Star Trek have a speed listing next to the infinite speed ships? How about the decade ones? Hell, I think they are all the same ship.

I'm not saying that other things don't have numbers. I am saying we have hardcore numbers that are on the same scale and are adhered to.