A New Organization of Spell Schools

[NineInchNall]

Best use of time stop ever.

[Draco_Argentum]

See, the delineations between one school and another never make any sense outside the context of whatever the list of spells in the school happens to be.

The setup proposed for TNE Broad Classes could work. I don't care if you make a water spell fluff text for doing damage. If water is a weak damage school then you've just make a weak damage spell. It just requires discipline to actually stick to that setup.

[Caedrus]

If water is a weak damage school then you've just make a weak damage spell. It just requires discipline to actually stick to that setup.

Yup.

[Caedrus]

Likely list for Enchantment spells:

Charm: How to make friends and influence people! Warning: May not be friendly when effect ends.
Hypnosis: Hypnotize and fascinate people.
Drowse: Make people drift off to sleep.
Deep Slumber: Make someone into Sleeping Beauty. (May go over to Curses)
Crushing Despair: Make someone cripplingly depressed.
Confuse: Confuse someone.
Dominate: Make someone your puppet.
Animate: Make inanimate objects break out of their oppressive definition.
Stagnate: Mindless creatures forget their motivations and act genuinely mindless.
Numb: Subject cannot feel pain.
Courage: Subject thinks they have the triforce of courage.
Rage: Drive someone into a berserker rage.
Calm: Calm people's emotions.
Supplant Directive: Wrest limited control of undead or constructs that function on simple creator commands (like golems), and alter their directives.
Suggestion: You can tell someone what to do.
Geas: Person must go on a quest, or else their brain gets fucked up. (May go better in Curses, actually)
Insanity: Make someone go insane.
Hesitate: Cause momentary dissonance in a thing's motivations, causing it to hesitate and miss an action. Works on mindless and minded folks.
Halt: Causes momentary dissonance in a thing's motivation to move, causing it to hesitate and miss a move action. Works on mindless and minded folks.
Deathwish / Suicide: Target tries to kill themselves.
Backbiter: Target's weapon attacks them once.
Antipathy: Repels creatures from something.
Sympathy: Attracts creatures to something.
Demand: Is like sending except it comes with a Suggestion.
Cowardice: Make someone easily scared.
Empty Mind / Thought Shield: Shroud your mind against attacks like the ones you make.
Mind Thrust: Pretty much the only direct damage spell, and not a terribly good one. Does psychic damage to minded folks.
Mind Trap: Fucks up people who look into your head.
Telepathy: Link up with your buddies for a private chat.
Mind Seed: Target slowly becomes you.
Mind Switch: You switch your brain into the target's for a Freaky Friday.
Cloud Mind / Manipulate Memory: Mess with people's memories.
Mindwipe: Useful if you're a Man in Black.
Mind Blank: Pretend you're mindless.

That's 34 (33 if we move over Geas to Curses, 32 if Deep Slumber goes over too), which looks about right (a little more than 3 spells at each spell level). Am I missing anything anyone cares about that ostensibly goes with the theme described in the first post?

(Note: All the Mindreading stuff went in Divination.)

[CatharzGodfoot]

Looks good. I do wonder where the fear effects are: you seem to have one thing that makes characters easier to frighten (cowardice), but nothing to frighten them.

Backbiter and animate seem a bit out of place. I understand if backbiter is 'lesser deathwish' (although then the flavor should be changed), but I really don't understand why animating a horde of zombies is something that an enchanter should be doing.

Similarly, supplant directive seems like an enchantment that should be given to golemancers (whoever they are) instead, just as mind sight is a divination that should be given to enchanters and mind blank and empty mind are enchanters' abjurations.

Numb also sticks out as odd, as it's not clearly mind affecting, and doesn't have a clear purpose. Do you get to hide the target's HP total and record any changes yourself?

Finally, it's very important that mindlessness is clearly and reasonably defined. For example, there's little reason for big spiders to be considered mindless. 'Green slime' is almost certainly mindless, and animated object that lack their own volition probably are as well. However, if warforged aren't mindless then very few things that actually have minds should be considered as such. A better designation might be 'alien mind': something that can be detected via mind sight but which is difficult to control and dangerous to contact.

Anyway, don't let my criticisms get you down. That's a good list and you seem to be making a lot of progress.

[Caedrus]

Looks good. I do wonder where the fear effects are: you seem to have one thing that makes characters easier to frighten (cowardice), but nothing to frighten them.

Making people hallucinate nightmares and stuff is Illusion.

Backbiter and animate seem a bit out of place. I understand if backbiter is 'lesser deathwish' (although then the flavor should be changed), but I really don't understand why animating a horde of zombies is something that an enchanter should be doing.

Backbiter is basically lesser deathwish, but it works on constructs. And I talked a bit about why animate (as in animate objects like tables, not zombies) was enchantment in the first post. Basically that in the fantasy setting, the Pathetic Fallacy isn't so much of a fallacy and you can imbue a semblance of sentience (or at least a "motivation") into objects (or manipulate the semblance of sentience in things that already have that done, as with Supplant Directive). And if you wouldn't put it there, where would you put it?

Similarly, supplant directive seems like an enchantment that should be given to golemancers (whoever they are) instead

See, I kinda figured Enchanters / Summoners were the golemancers. You need to summon the elemental and then bind it to your will. I suppose I could justify Supplant Directive in Summoning for the same reason I put Binding there...

mind sight

Mind Sight?

Numb also sticks out as odd, as it's not clearly mind affecting

Why not?

and doesn't have a clear purpose

I disagree. It has the kind of benefits like the ones the guys taking the no-pain drugs in "Sword of the Stranger" gets. They're harder to interrupt with damage (your Concentration is better if you aren't feeling anything), you're immune to some status effects (such as Pain, which is actually a nasty status effect in this game, and is caused by things like being lit on fire), you get to ignore wounded penalties, and so forth.

Finally, it's very important that mindlessness is clearly and reasonably defined. For example, there's little reason for big spiders to be considered mindless. 'Green slime' is almost certainly mindless, and animated object that lack their own volition probably are as well. However, if warforged aren't mindless then very few things that actually have minds should be considered as such. A better designation might be 'alien mind': something that can be detected via mind sight but which is difficult to control and dangerous to contact.

I completely agree. Mindless vermin, etc, is retarded.

Actually, I could also see taking away the mindlessness of constructs. That is to say, they're bound elementals, right? Why can't you fuck with the elemental's head? Since when did they become mindless?

Anyway, don't let my criticisms get you down. That's a good list and you seem to be making a lot of progress.

Down? What would I do without criticisms? If I eventually get proved wrong on something, that's not something to be ashamed of, it's something to be celebrated, as it expands one's awareness ^_^

[CatharzGodfoot]

Looks good. I do wonder where the fear effects are: you seem to have one thing that makes characters easier to frighten (cowardice), but nothing to frighten them.

Making people hallucinate nightmares and stuff is Illusion.

It's interesting that you restrict enchantment to positive emotions. Why would causing people to feel irrational fear be different from causing them to feel irrational joy? I can see the mechanical reason for it, but then why isn't confusion an illusion effect?

Backbiter and animate seem a bit out of place. I understand if backbiter is 'lesser deathwish' (although then the flavor should be changed), but I really don't understand why animating a horde of zombies is something that an enchanter should be doing.

Backbiter is basically lesser deathwish, but it works on constructs. And I talked a bit about why animate (as in animate objects like tables, not zombies) was enchantment in the first post. Basically that in the fantasy setting, the Pathetic Fallacy isn't so much of a fallacy and you can imbue a semblance of sentience (or at least a "motivation") into objects (or manipulate the semblance of sentience in things that already have that done, as with Supplant Directive). And if you wouldn't put it there, where would you put it?

It does depend on the cosmology. Normally I'd place it under a 'life' discipline (restoring life to a corpse [which is an object] isn't especially different from adding life to an object). It could also fit under whichever discipline gets telekinesis if you posit direct control. Lastly, animating stuff might be worthy of being a discipline unto itself.

Still, if your cosmology is strongly animistic and getting objects to act is simply a matter of changing their minds, enchantment makes perfect sense. If that is the case, the "mindless" designation should not exist at all.

mind sight

Mind Sight?

It's like vision except illumination is provided by intelligence scores. With your strongly animistic setting it would basically be blind sight. May or may not also include thought detection.

Numb also sticks out as odd, as it's not clearly mind affecting

Why not?

and doesn't have a clear purpose

I disagree. It has the kind of benefits like the ones the guys taking the no-pain drugs in "Sword of the Stranger" gets. They're harder to interrupt with damage (your Concentration is better if you aren't feeling anything), you're immune to some status effects (such as Pain, which is actually a nasty status effect in this game, and is caused by things like being lit on fire), you get to ignore wounded penalties, and so forth.

Since it's a buff, a better characterization might be 'adrenaline rush' or 'greater rage'.

Actually, I could also see taking away the mindlessness of constructs. That is to say, they're bound elementals, right? Why can't you fuck with the elemental's head? Since when did they become mindless?

That depends on how golems work. If they exist only to serve the creators will and simply use the elemental as a power source (this is D&D canon), then there's a pretty good argument for them being mindless. You could still help the elemental mind break free (which would then be controllable, though berserk).

[Caedrus]

Looks good. I do wonder where the fear effects are: you seem to have one thing that makes characters easier to frighten (cowardice), but nothing to frighten them.

Making people hallucinate nightmares and stuff is Illusion.

It's interesting that you restrict enchantment to positive emotions. Why would causing people to feel irrational fear be different from causing them to feel irrational joy?

I don't think I gave them "Euphoria" either. But nevermind that. Cowardice *does* make people feel more fear than they otherwise would, and they will run screaming from someone who makes a basic intimidate check. Maybe it could synergize with using "Aversion" or "Antipathy." It's just a different kind of fear effect, really. But I see your point. It may be that it fits better in Enchantment after all. I'll see how the Illusion school shapes up as far as variety of effects go.

I can see the mechanical reason for it, but then why isn't confusion an illusion effect?

I suppose it could be Illusion instead. But remember what Frank said about needing to have arbitrary boundaries at some point. You really could justify anything as anything if you tried.

It does depend on the cosmology. Normally I'd place it under a 'life' discipline (restoring life to a corpse [which is an object] isn't especially different from adding life to an object).

So your vote is that it goes under the first Necromancy category? I guess I don't really see golemancy or animating inanimate objects as trapping a soul back in its dead body or any of those connotations that often goes with necromancy. But I guess that goes back to your comment about cosmology.

Still, if your cosmology is strongly animistic and getting objects to act is simply a matter of changing their minds, enchantment makes perfect sense.

That was basically the idea I was working with, except not so strongly that there wouldn't be a distinction between spells that work on complex minds and just "the will of the world."

Since it's a buff, a better characterization might be 'adrenaline rush' or 'greater rage'.

But it has nothing to do with adrenaline or rage. The kind of guys that I'm basing the effects off of have the exact opposite of an adrenaline rush. They are super calm and aren't bothered by pain at all because their pain centers just got turned off.

Actually, I could also see taking away the mindlessness of constructs. That is to say, they're bound elementals, right? Why can't you fuck with the elemental's head? Since when did they become mindless?

That depends on how golems work. If they exist only to serve the creators will and simply use the elemental as a power source (this is D&D canon), then there's a pretty good argument for them being mindless. You could still help the elemental mind break free (which would then be controllable, though berserk).

*Nod*
And I guess helping the elemental break free would go under Thaumaturgy.

[Kaelik]

fear as illusion vs enchantment ect:

Fear is a tag in D&D which can be applied to lots of different spells. That's a good system.

There is no reason enchantment can't have a spell: Fear that makes people really afraid and want to run away. Where Illusion has spells like Phantasmal X which might do different things (Paralysis, Death, the actual fear condition) and have the fear tag too. But also be illusions.

So for example:

Fear [enchantment][fear effect][mind affecting]

No save no attack role, single target makes some one feared.

Phantoms [illusion][fear effect]

Place a phantom in a location, everyone within X distance save or become feared, shaken on a successful save, higher spell level then Fear.

Anyone with True Seeing is immune to Phantoms. Anyone immune to Min affecting is immune to Fear. Anyone immune to fear is immune to both.

[Caedrus]

Sounds good to me, Kaelik.

[SunTzuWarmaster]

Just to chime in:

I've always found it stupid that affecting dreams was an illusion ability. Hypnosis and Dream affecting have always belonged firmly in Enchantment to me.

[Caedrus]

I think sending people visions goes more with Illusion, because as stated it deals more directly with perceptions and gets things like synesthete. And shadows of thoughts and feelings (like nightmares) fit straight into the description I gave on the first post.

[CatharzGodfoot]

So does invisibility bend light around the caster or cloud other's minds?

[Caedrus]

So does invisibility bend light around the caster or cloud other's minds?

Either way it's still illusion. Messing with people's vision and hearing is illusion. Like Frank said, any broad flavor category can get twisted to justify anything, and you need to set rather arbitrary limits. I described the limits of illusion in the first post as manipulating perception and messing with "shadowstuff," and specific trumps general.

But if I *did* ever make it enchantment I would make it EXACTLY the same way as when House pulled the invisibility trick in House. That was gold.

[Kaelik]

But if I *did* ever make it enchantment I would make it EXACTLY the same way as when House pulled the invisibility trick in House. That was gold.

Refresher?

[Caedrus]

But if I *did* ever make it enchantment I would make it EXACTLY the same way as when House pulled the invisibility trick in House. That was gold.

Refresher?

I would if I could find the episode to pull the clip from... but basically House has a hunch of what's wrong with the guy (and you're seeing from that guy's perspective, and House seems like a kind of an intimidating guy), and so he says "hey, wanna see a cool trick?" Stands up, starts flicking the lights, and then makes as if to move... and disappears, then reappears somewhere else. Because the guy's brain won't register movement when he has a seizure induced by lights or something.

It's kinda hard to really explain without showing you the scene, but he essentially uses a mind trick resulting from the guy's sickness to seem invisible.

[Kaelik]

I would if I could find the episode to pull the clip from... but basically House has a hunch of what's wrong with the guy (and you're seeing from that guy's perspective, and House seems like a kind of an intimidating guy), and so he says "hey, wanna see a cool trick?" Stands up, starts flicking the lights, and then makes as if to move... and disappears, then reappears somewhere else. Because the guy's brain won't register movement when he has a seizure induced by lights or something.

It's kinda hard to really explain without showing you the scene, but he essentially uses a mind trick resulting from the guy's sickness to seem invisible.

Comma guys son. Yeah, he had already flicked the lights and thrown bag of chips, so he just started moving real fast. Just needed a slight reference, because while I know all the episodes, I never thought about anything as an invisibility trick exactly.

[Caedrus]

I would if I could find the episode to pull the clip from... but basically House has a hunch of what's wrong with the guy (and you're seeing from that guy's perspective, and House seems like a kind of an intimidating guy), and so he says "hey, wanna see a cool trick?" Stands up, starts flicking the lights, and then makes as if to move... and disappears, then reappears somewhere else. Because the guy's brain won't register movement when he has a seizure induced by lights or something.

It's kinda hard to really explain without showing you the scene, but he essentially uses a mind trick resulting from the guy's sickness to seem invisible.

Comma guys son. Yeah, he had already flicked the lights and thrown bag of chips, so he just started moving real fast. Just needed a slight reference, because while I know all the episodes, I never thought about anything as an invisibility trick exactly.

That was awesome. So it'd be like the Scout's skirmish requirement, except for staying invisible. And you could counter Invisibility by, say, turning the ground to mud instead of throwing powder at the air.

[Kaelik]

That was awesome. So it'd be like the Scout's skirmish requirement, except for staying invisible. And you could counter Invisibility by, say, turning the ground to mud instead of throwing powder at the air.

Basically, Child of Shadow.

[Caedrus]

It's never Lupus.

[Caedrus]

Incidentally, the term Mesmerism comes from here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mesmer