[Pathfinder] More previews up

[Roy]

RC has a point. Why are you assuming D&D combats are long, or even medium length Frank?

[Username17]

Without haste you fucking cast more third level spells in one fight because you seriously don't even have enough 3rd level spells to be ahead on that metric on any round of combat when you are hasted.

The flaw with your thinking is that you're assuming you always last at least 3 rounds. 3 rounds is the maximum you're going to last, and that's if you're very lucky. You've got to figure the average is more like 2, and sometimes 1. Even if you only last 1 round, getting the haste boost to AC is basically free and worth doing.

But shit man, this is 3.0, rocket launcher central, 3 rounds is a best case scenario.

Fine. Haste doesn't pay off by any metric before Round 3. In a one round fight, Haste provides nothing at all. If you want to talk about faster combats, you should never prepare Haste.

-Username17

[ubernoob]

What if there are two casters in the party?

[hogarth]

What if there are two casters in the party?

3.0 Haste only affected one person. There was a Mass Haste spell, though.

[Username17]

What if there are two casters in the party?

Then you're in much the same situation. On the first round, a character spends an action and a 3rd level slot to put up the haste and the recipient gets an extra action. So Haste does not cost an action to cast, but it does cost a third level spell slot and it doesn't give you any actions until round 2. If the third level spell slot is at all important to you, it's not worth it except possibly to cast on a TWF Rogue. And Mass Haste happens at 6th level slots and affects the entire party. So when 11th level rolls around you won't care about Haste.

There's a window of opportunity, but it's insulting to our intelligence to act like that window of opportunity extends as low as character level 5 or as high as character level 13.

-Username17

[RandomCasualty2]

Fine. Haste doesn't pay off by any metric before Round 3. In a one round fight, Haste provides nothing at all. If you want to talk about faster combats, you should never prepare Haste.

Um ok... lets go through what you wrote before.

Without Haste:

* Round 1: Cast a third level spell.
* Round 2: Cast your second third level spell.
* Round 3: Cast your final third level spell.


With Haste:

* Round 1: Cast Haste, cast a second third level spell.
* Round 2: Cast your last third level spell, cast a second level spell.
* Round 3: Cast a second level spell, cast your third second level spell.

Well according to your own analysis... we have..
Round 1: Benefits: Haste gives you +4 AC. Drawbacks- none
Round 2: Benefits: Cast extra 2nd level spell. Drawbacks- none
Round 3: Benefits: Cast two extra second level spells. Drawbacks- Cast one less 3rd level spell.

And even at round 3, where there is actually a small drawback, you're still comparing 2 3rd level spells and 3 second level spells versus 3 3rd level spells. Given that shit like web and glitterdust are 2nd level, I think I'm still going to go with the haste as easily the favorite.

This idea that haste doesn't pay off is shown to be false. You are gaining something in Rounds 1-2 and not losing anything. Even in round 3, the net gain of casting 3 extra 2nd level spells outweighs losing a single 3rd level spell.

And of course, at levels other than 5, it becomes a totally moot point, because you don't even lose out on that extra highest level slot on the 3rd round, making haste obviously superior.

[Psychic Robot]

What if there are two casters in the party?

Uber, you should post more.

[Username17]

Round 1: Benefits: Haste gives you +4 AC. Drawbacks- none

No. The drawback is that you set one of your two third level spells known and one of your three third level spell slots for Mage Armor, Swift. That's a huge cost for a tiny buff. Remember that this is the edition where buffs tend to last an hour/level instead of a minute/level. You could just take your lower level slots and turn them into substantial buffs on the whole party.

Seriously, your Haste Explosion is competing against walking into the battle with Cat's Grace on all your party members an hour ago and then dropping an actual third level attack spell every round for three rounds of combat. You're out of spells either way, but at least this way you still have Cat's Grace on the whole party for four more hours.

Haste is a great spell for eighth to tenth level characters. Not for fifth level characters.

-Username17

[ubernoob]

What if there are two casters in the party?

Uber, you should post more.

Lol, why?

[Psychic Robot]

Because we need more different people to post.

EDIT: Paladin preview up.

Of all the base classes, paladins got some of the largest revisions between the Beta and the final version of the rules. Some of their defenses were increased, but the majority of the changes revolve around smite evil and the addition of the new ability called mercy.

Before we dig into those changes though, lets take a look at some of the other alterations. The first things you might notice are the new auras. These were introduced in alpha stages of the playtest and they have survived to the final game. The aura of justice allows Seelah to spend two uses of her smite evil ability to grant the ability to smite evil to all allies within 10 feet. She must use this ability right away and it lasts for 1 minute, but more on that later. The second aura, the aura of resolve, makes the paladin immune to charm spells and grants a +4 bonus on saves against such spells to all allies within 10 feet. Having a paladin in your party gives you a reason to stick together, even if it does mean that you are a little bit more vulnerable to area of effect spells.

The next change on the roster involves the paladin's saving throws. You might notice that Seelah's Will save is a bit higher than it should be. This is due to the fact that paladins now receive the faster save progression for their Will saves.

The paladin's lay on hands ability has been revamped a bit. The paladin can use this ability a number of times per day equal to half her paladin level plus her Charisma modifier. With each use, she heals 1d6 points of damage per two paladin levels. When she uses this on others, it is a standard action, but she can heal herself using this ability as a swift action. Seelah can also channel positive energy, as a cleric of her level, but she must use up two uses of her lay on hands ability whenever she channels.

In addition to healing damage, using lay on hands also comes with a number of new benefits called mercies. Starting at 3rd level, paladins can select one condition from a specific list (at 3rd level, that list is fatigued, shaken, and sickened, but the list expands the paladin gains levels). Whenever she uses lay on hands, if the target is suffering from that condition, it is instantly removed. As a paladin gains levels, she gains additional mercies, which expands her list of conditions cured though lay on hands. She can even cure diseases, poisons, and curses in this way, although she must make a caster level check to remove them (just as with the spells that remove these afflictions). These mercies allow a paladin to act as a healer in the party, but without stealing the focus from the cleric, who is more focused on larger healing spells and other buffs.

Divine bond allows a paladin to choose from one of two different effects. She can bond with a horse, which acts like an animal companion (using the paladin's level as her effective druid level), or she can bond celestial spirits to her weapon. Seelah has the weapon bond option, which allows her to add +3 to her weapon up to three times per day, with each bonding lasting a number of minutes equal to her paladin level. Instead of adding simple bonuses, however, she can instead transform those bonuses into special weapon qualities of an equal bonus. For example, Seelah could add a +1 enhancement bonus to her +3 defending longsword, making it +4 and she could also add the holy weapon quality. Instead, she could add axiomatic, flaming, flaming burst, keen, or merciful. As she gains in level, other options become available, such as speed or brilliant energy. The really nice part is that she can tailor these bonuses to the current situation, changing them each time she calls a celestial spirit.

Of all the changes, smite evil was perhaps the most contentious on the message boards. Everyone seemed to have an idea of how this iconic ability should work. In the end, it was decided that smite evil really should last until your evil foe is vanquished, making this ability useful even if you miss with your first attack. But we did not stop there, the amount of bonus damage dealt (that is, 1 point per paladin level) doubles if the selected foe is an evil outsider, dragon, or undead. Smite attacks also ignore any damage reduction the target might have. Finally, the paladin is protected from harm gaining a deflection bonus to her AC equal to her Charisma modifier against attacks made by the target. Suffice to say, you do not want to be on the receiving end of a paladin's smite evil.

There have been a few other changes to the paladin as well. Whenever she uses detect evil, she can focus on one target, to the exclusion of all others, to learn if that target is evil in just 1 round. In addition, her spellcasting progression is a little bit faster now (matching the ranger's), it is based off her Charisma modifier, and her effective caster level is her paladin level –3. Most of her spells are pretty straight forward, but there have been some changes to protection from evil that are worth noting here. This spell does not grant immediate immunity to mental control. Instead, it grants a new save at a +2 bonus against the control, but only if the source of the control is an evil creature or object (the other protection spells provide similar saves against their alignments). The spell does still provide immunity to new mental control or possession from evil creatures and objects while it lasts. Its protection from contact by summoned creatures now also only applies to evil creatures (instead of evil and neutral).

Seelah has a number of feats that are worth a closer look. Critical Focus gives her a +4 bonus on critical hit confirmation rolls, but the real star is Staggering Critical. Any foe that suffers a critical hit from a creature with Staggering Critical is staggered for 1d4+1 rounds (meaning that can only take a move or a standard action). A Fort save reduces this duration to 1 round (for Seelah, the DC is 23). There are a host of critical feats like this in the book, but you cannot apply more than one to any critical hit (unless you are a fighter with the Critical Mastery feat). These feats are good, but they have relatively high prerequisites. Staggering Critical, for example, requires a base attack bonus of +13, whereas Stunning Critical requires a base attack bonus of +17. Seelah also has Improved Sunder and Greater Sunder, both of which give her a +2 bonus on checks to sunder. Greater Sunder also allows Seelah to apply excess damage from the sunder directly to the creature holding the item. Each combat maneuver has a pair of feats that works like this, granting up to a total of +4 bonus along with another benefit.

[RandomCasualty2]

No. The drawback is that you set one of your two third level spells known and one of your three third level spell slots for Mage Armor, Swift. That's a huge cost for a tiny buff.

Only if you're a PC who isn't using the 5 minute work day. NPCs don't care about that, because they won't live longer than 2-3 rounds anyway, so nova potential is all you want. Also PCs rarely care unless the DM is preventing them from resting.

Haste was just a nova spell, and nova is bad for the game in general. Especially any game where NPCs use the same rules as PCs.

[Murtak]

Fine. You are a level 5 NPC Wizard with an 18 Int, giving you two level 3 spells per day. You have at least two level 3 spells in your spellbook, but we will throw in a third one for good measure.

Just looking at core spells and then only considering combat spells gives us Sleet Storm, Stinking Cloud, Deep Slumber, Hold Person, Major Image, Fly and Slow to compete with Haste. Attempting to use 2nd level spells for combat instead leaves us with Glitterdust, Web, Minor Image and Blindness/Deafness. Fine spells for sure. But I don't see them competing with the 3rd level spells. Web needs anchoring points and is only four squares deep, Glitterdust is a mere 2 squares deep and Blindness/Deafness is single target only. The third level spells affect more targets and deal with them more thoroughly.

According to you this sample wizard would cast Haste first, followed by whatever single 3rd level is left over. Right after that it's down to 2nd level spells. One round of say, Glitterdust and Web, which taken together cover less area than a single Stinking Cloud. In the third round you have a single level 2 spell left to cast.

Compare this to a wizard who doesn't use Haste. Say he picks:
3rd: Stinking Cloud, Slow
2nd: Web, Glitterdust, whatever
Not only can you decide what save to target with your big spell, you have multiple spells which can cover large areas, you can safely cast Slow into areas with friendlies and until round 3 you are pretty much even with the hasted wizard (round 1: +4 AC vs choice in what big spell to use, round 2: using a 3rd level spell instead of two 2nd level spells). In round 3 you are only casting one spell instead of two, but you can still pick one of three 2nd level spells, while the hasted wizard is down to his last and has to supplement it with 1st level spells.

At this level at least I can't see Haste being a good action, and at 6th it doesn't look much better. At 7th level is where I begin to see the "nova" potential you speak off, but then again this is damn close to the level where everyone is starting to get Haste anyways.

[hogarth]

Because we need more different people to post.

EDIT: Paladin preview up.

Yeah, I mentioned that, but people are much more interested in 3.0 Haste.

[Roy]

Because we need more different people to post.

EDIT: Paladin preview up.

Yeah, I mentioned that, but people are much more interested in 3.0 Haste.

I already covered the Fail. But there's really nothing new and interesting there, so I shifted to a different sort of Pathfinder Fail. Which there was also no one interested in.

[hogarth]

I already covered the Fail. But there's really nothing new and interesting there, so I shifted to a different sort of Pathfinder Fail. Which there was also no one interested in.

I saw you mentioned an anecdote about some idiot with a dumb idea for a campaign. What sort of response were you looking for? "Yeah, that guy sure is an idiot."

[Roy]

I already covered the Fail. But there's really nothing new and interesting there, so I shifted to a different sort of Pathfinder Fail. Which there was also no one interested in.

I saw you mentioned an anecdote about some idiot with a dumb idea for a campaign. What sort of response were you looking for? "Yeah, that guy sure is an idiot."

More like 'Yup, idiot stuff draws in idiots.' Since that was the point I was trying to make. Most of them are like that.

I recently did an intervention on one of my players who saw 'high level Eberron', didn't recognize the significance of that 'Pathfinder' bit because he never looked into it and didn't catch the other bits about the campaign itself. Successful Mission is Successful.

[Username17]

There are really no surprises in the Paizo Paladin. There is really no reflection as to what a Paladin is supposed to be doing, as to how they are supposed to be contributing to the party. Giving out vaguely quadratic daily healing is a nice enough idea and really drives home the fact of how much you suck if you're a Fighter, but seriously anyone who says this:

These mercies allow a paladin to act as a healer in the party, but without stealing the focus from the cleric, who is more focused on larger healing spells and other buffs.

is badly in need of a clue. Seriously? You're afraid of stealing the focus from a Cleric by outshining Cure Serious Wounds? Yes, they upped her daily healing to a substantial 210 points/day for this 13th level character - but they also forced her to cut it up so that she's only healing 21 point per round. It's gone from a minor power that let you dish out a piece of meaningful emergency healing once per day to a coupon for healing wand charges. A 13th level character is generally speaking not going to want to spend a standard action to heal 6d6 in any combat. The Swift action self-heal is pretty sweet actually, but if anything I think it makes the character even more confusing in "role." Oh, and this s going by the text description that says he should get 10 uses, the statline says 12 because Jason can't do math or isn't describing it correctly or something.

Divine Bond is a fucking joke. Aura of resolve is a joke as well. Apparently not stealing the focus of Clerics involves being a 13th level character who has a special class feature that is simply a small fraction of a Cleric spending a 3rd level slot to put up Magic Circle Against Evil. Call me crazy, but when a 13th level character puts up their Aura of Resolve, I genuinely think I should care even when the Rogue's cohort's Wizard cohort casts a summon monster spell to get a minor celestial that comes with a Magic Circle against Evil as an afterthought. I'm all for characters not overshadowing over characters, but if you're going to have a class feature I genuinely think that it should be valuable even if a character eight levels lower than you prepares a long duration standard buff spell with one of their slots.

But mostly, I just don't see how the character is supposed to be contributing. An Iron Golem grinds her down. A Storm Giant just smacks her down. Even the things she's supposedly geared to slay like Ice Devils smack her around quite painfully. Seriously, she does bonus to-hit and damage against evil enemies, she's immune to the fear aura, jer attacks ignore it's regeneration, and she even has cold resistance - and what? Her enemy still has an AC of 36, 147 hit points, and a much larger attack that slows the enemy with every hit. And a good chance of being able to summon a pack of whupass. Just on raw numbers, the part which is straight up easiest to do because you can simply math hammer it, the character fails.

You're a level 13 Fearless Cold Resistant Warrior of Good. Killing Gelugons is your actual job. If you can't do that, I don't even want to hear about you. The fact that you also don't beat normal enemies like Storm Giants would even be understandable if you were able to take down your favored prey. But you aren't. Because you suck.

-Username17

[hogarth]

Divine Bond is a fucking joke.

It's harmless; it's not clear from that snippet, but it stacks with whatever you have on your sword in the first place, so you can add something like Disruption or Axiomatic to your weapon on the fly. (At least you could in the Beta rules.)

Aura of resolve is a joke as well. Apparently not stealing the focus of Clerics involves being a 13th level character who has a special class feature that is simply a small fraction of a Cleric spending a 3rd level slot to put up Magic Circle Against Evil.

Note that the preview points out that they nerfed Magic Circle Against Evil; it doesn't give immunity to charm any longer (just an extra save).

[Roy]

You're a level 13 Fearless Cold Resistant Warrior of Good. Killing Gelugons is your actual job. If you can't do that, I don't even want to hear about you. The fact that you also don't beat normal enemies like Storm Giants would even be understandable if you were able to take down your favored prey. But you aren't. Because you suck.

-Username17

Have two handfuls of awesome.



You've EARNED it.

Edit: So basically, lol beatstick nerfs?

[Frantic]

I already covered the Fail. But there's really nothing new and interesting there, so I shifted to a different sort of Pathfinder Fail. Which there was also no one interested in.

I saw you mentioned an anecdote about some idiot with a dumb idea for a campaign. What sort of response were you looking for? "Yeah, that guy sure is an idiot."

More like 'Yup, idiot stuff draws in idiots.' Since that was the point I was trying to make. Most of them are like that.

I recently did an intervention on one of my players who saw 'high level Eberron', didn't recognize the significance of that 'Pathfinder' bit because he never looked into it and didn't catch the other bits about the campaign itself. Successful Mission is Successful.

I love how you rant about stuff that isn't even fucking relevant to the Gaming Den. You're hopeless. How about you try telling Hawk Diesel how bad you think the game will be over there, instead of being a coward about it by posting it here where no one gives a shit and it only serves to enhance your stupid, overweight (not that that term should be unfamiliar to you) ego.

And yes, keep thinking I'm 'trolling' you, please. I'll just laugh in your face for being so passive aggressive with someone's fucking playstyle on a completely different site, and calling them an idiot over what version of Dungeons & Dragons they play (that's just the pinnacle of nerdrage). You are not funny, and full of Fail.

[DMReckless]

Even the things she's supposedly geared to slay like Ice Devils smack her around quite painfully. Seriously, she does bonus to-hit and damage against evil enemies, she's immune to the fear aura, jer attacks ignore it's regeneration, and she even has cold resistance - and what? Her enemy still has an AC of 36, 147 hit points, and a much larger attack that slows the enemy with every hit. And a good chance of being able to summon a pack of whupass. Just on raw numbers, the part which is straight up easiest to do because you can simply math hammer it, the character fails.

You're a level 13 Fearless Cold Resistant Warrior of Good. Killing Gelugons is your actual job. If you can't do that, I don't even want to hear about you.

-Username17

Pardon me while I run some numbers. This is the first time I've really done this, so feel free to make corrections and call me a horrible human being.


With her Divine Bond, she turns her Sword into a +4 Keen Defending Bane (Evil Outsiders) Longsword.

Bane (Evil Outsiders), Keen, +4 =+28/+23/+18 to hit for (1d8+2d6+33) (Crit 17-20, Confirm +32/+27/+22)

65%+40%+15%x(1d8+2d6+33=44.5)=28.925+17.8+6.675

20% Crit x 85% confirm= 17% x 15% = 2.55%
20% Crit x 60% confirm= 12% x 15% = 1.8%
20% Crit x 35% confirm= 7% x 15% =1.05%


Total=53.4 dpr with 5.5% chance to stagger for 1d6 rounds


Sunder CMD probably equals 36 ( 14 BAB+6 Str +1 Size +5 Dex +10) = 25%

So, best bet is attack, attack, sunder for 46.725 dpr, 18.85% chance stagger and 25% chance Sunder

29 AC with +4 deflection (Smite Evil) instead of +2 from Ring

Gelugon
Spear 60%+35%+10% x (2d6+9=16)=9.6+5.6+1.6=16.8
Bite 30% x (2d6+3=10)=3
Tail 30% x (3d6+3=13)=3.9

.60x.30=18
.35x.30=10.5
.10x.30=3
.30x.30=9

Total=23.7 dpr with 40.5% chance to slow

Or

Claws 55%+55% x (1d10+6=17)=9.35+9.35
Bite 30% x (2d6+3=10)=3
Tail 30% x (3d6+3=13)=3.9

Total=25.6 dpr with 9% chance to slow

147 hp/ 53.4dpr=2.75 rounds until Gelugon is dead
115 hp/25.6 dpr =4.5 rounds until Paladin is dead

Slowed best dpr=28.925: 147/28.925=5.08
Staggered best dpr=9.6: 115/25.6=11.98

Add Lay on hands for Swift action to heal (6d6=21 HP) for 12 rounds=
Best dpr= 25.6-21= 4.6

4.6 x 12 rounds = 55.2; 115- 55.2= 59.8/25.6=2.3= 14 rounds


So, really, Seelah Pretty much kicks the Gelugon's ass, because she can kill him in 5 rounds even slowed and he takes 14 rounds to finish her off.

Of course, this is subject to any corrections you can show me. Like I said, this is my first time trying this.

[DMReckless]

Not sure if keen is worth it. On the one hand,the chances of staggering the Gelugon is very low, on the other, the extra 18% chance to critical each round is nice. If Bane bonuses stacked, it would be so worth it to have Bane (Lawful Outsider) instead (for the extra +10% to hit each swing more than the +7 damage.)

[hogarth]

Not sure if keen is worth it. On the one hand,the chances of staggering the Gelugon is very low, on the other, the extra 18% chance to critical each round is nice.

The chance of staggering the gelugon on a critical is 100%. The chance of staggering the gelugon for more than 1 round is very low.

(Assuming the feat works as it does in the Beta.)

[DMReckless]

I didn’t add the extra +1 into the damage calculations. Also, if she has time to cast Divine Favor before combat, she gets another +3 to hit and damage:

Bane (Evil Outsiders), Keen, +1 =+31/+26/+21 to hit for (1d8+2d6+37) (Crit 17-20, Confirm +35/+30/+25)

80%+55%+30%x(1d8+2d6+37=48.5)=38.8+26.675+14.55

20% Crit x 95(max)% confirm= 19% x 15% = 2.85%
20% Crit x 75% confirm= 15% x 15% = 2.25%
20% Crit x 50% confirm= 10% x 15% =1.5%


Total= 80.025 dpr with 6.6% chance to stagger for 1d6 rounds
147/80.025 =1.83 rounds
147/38.8=3.79 rounds slowed

[DMReckless]

Not sure if keen is worth it. On the one hand,the chances of staggering the Gelugon is very low, on the other, the extra 18% chance to critical each round is nice.

The chance of staggering the gelugon on a critical is 100%. The chance of staggering the gelugon for more than 1 round is very low.

(Assuming the feat works as it does in the Beta.)

In which case, there is a 36% chance per round of Staggering the Gelugon, 49% chance with Divine Favor cast, reducing its dpr to 9.6 for that round, not even worth spending a lay on hands to heal.

And with the 85.5 damage on a crit (unless smite damage doesn't double), the Gelugon better spend that next round's action begging for mercy anyway.