WFRP: I think I just crapped my pants with joy.

[FatR]

I have been going to a weekly gaming meet up most weeks for a few years. We usually play one-shots or short campaigns of new games, and thus play an entirely new system about once a month. Sometimes it's a well-polished game. Sometimes it's a playtest draft that isn't very good. Most of the time they're mediocre. If you are genuinely interested in what's out there and what's been done, we can talk about what you're looking for and I can make recommendations.

I'm interested in all-purpose rules that make "I try to convince NPC X" into an interesting subgame, without dropping too much setting assumptions and any story assumptions on me. Something like social combat from Exalted 2E, except actually working and preferably less crunchy.

[mean_liar]

Frank - we're you get that from? The most badass Exalted Champion of Chaos profession stat block from Tome of Corruption is strong, but its not stupid. Here's the top-tier warrior and wizard advance schemes for Chaos and norms:

[Nihlin]

I'm interested in all-purpose rules that make "I try to convince NPC X" into an interesting subgame, without dropping too much setting assumptions and any story assumptions on me. Something like social combat from Exalted 2E, except actually working and preferably less crunchy.

Cool, let me try to home in a bit better on what would be a good fit for that. So, when you say subgame, are you looking for something that offers different tactical choices with different mechanical impact (for example, lying gives you a bonus to a certain roll, but is countered with fact-finding), or are you looking for something that helps guide you through that sort of social bargaining in an interesting way (oh, you failed your "let's talk reasonably" roll. Do you want to stop now, or escalate to "insults and threats," with the bigger risks that go with it?)?

You mentioned Exalted, which I feel like kind of sits on the fence between the two, leaning more towards trying to be tactical.

I'm guessing that you aren't interested in systems that model the way a certain medium or genre works (Dr. House will never get the real answer from a patient in the first act, no matter how impressive his speech. He will almost always get the real answer in the last five minutes, even if the dialogue is poorly written.)

Edit: Have you seen the Secret Arts system in Weapons of the Gods? It's in the vein of Exalted 2E, but more elegant.

[Doom]

Well, that's not true.

Not true? Wow. Issues with the language aside (and I've played with German speakers who never even commented on that 'problem'), what system has clearly superior published adventures?

Thanks.

[angelfromanotherpin]

Well, that's not true.

Not true? Wow. Issues with the language aside (and I've played with German speakers who never even commented on that 'problem'), what system has clearly superior published adventures?

Thanks.

Way to move the goalposts, man. Your original claim was that the Warhammer Fantasy published adventures were...

Vastly superior to any other system.

...so all one would have to do to disprove your thesis is present a system with published adventures that are only somewhat (rather than vastly) inferior to the WFRP ones.

[NineInchNall]

This thread brings me joy and joyness.

[Roy]

This thread brings me joy and joyness.

Care to elaborate?

[Username17]

Frank - we're you get that from? The most badass Exalted Champion of Chaos profession stat block from Tome of Corruption is strong, but its not stupid. Here's the top-tier warrior and wizard advance schemes for Chaos and norms:

It's from Warpstone, which is what the previous WHFRP license holder published. The issue in question is reprinted Here.

-Username17

[Starmaker]

...a system with published adventures that are only somewhat (rather than vastly) inferior to the WFRP ones.

Call of Cthulhu has some [awesome] adventures. Since I read stuff based on recommendations primarily, the rest might as well be shit and they will still be, on average and based on your preferences, from somewhat inferior to somewhat superior to WHRP adventures.

edit: tags

[Doom]

Well, that's not true.

Not true? Wow. Issues with the language aside (and I've played with German speakers who never even commented on that 'problem'), what system has clearly superior published adventures?

Thanks.

Way to move the goalposts, man. Your original claim was that the Warhammer Fantasy published adventures were...

Vastly superior to any other system.

...so all one would have to do to disprove your thesis is present a system with published adventures that are only somewhat (rather than vastly) inferior to the WFRP ones.

Hey, if that's the limit of your ability, so be it. Of course, you haven't even done that much, but okeedokee. Understanding a way to disprove a thesis is not actually disproving a thesis, though. Is this really that important to you?

Have you actually played through The Enemy Within Campaign more than once? Can you cite a specific example of the language issues you mentioned?

I was sort of talking about fantasy role playing (and yes, that's not exactly and precisely to the exclusion of all other things what I said, mea culpa), was offering my opinion about a product, and I admit I may have overstepped my bounds. But it does seem the best anyone can come up with "there are some in other genres that are also top notch".

That works well enough for me, and sorry if I offended your sensibilities.

Oh, thanks for the Cthulhu references, I might have to check those out if I ever decide to play that genre.

[cthulhu]

Seriously, it's like walking into a town called Undeadinthesewers and your contact's name is Blackmage Evilwizardington. No matter what else is going on, that just undermines it completely.

hahahaha.

[Kaelik]

Hey, if that's the limit of your ability, so be it. Of course, you haven't even done that much, but okeedokee. Understanding a way to disprove a thesis is not actually disproving a thesis, though. Is this really that important to you?

Have you actually played through The Enemy Within Campaign more than once? Can you cite a specific example of the language issues you mentioned?

I was sort of talking about fantasy role playing (and yes, that's not exactly and precisely to the exclusion of all other things what I said, mea culpa), was offering my opinion about a product, and I admit I may have overstepped my bounds. But it does seem the best anyone can come up with "there are some in other genres that are also top notch".

That works well enough for me, and sorry if I offended your sensibilities.

Oh, thanks for the Cthulhu references, I might have to check those out if I ever decide to play that genre.

Don't be an asshat. Baldly stating that the thesis doesn't constitute any evidence for it at all.

You've given no reason for anyone to believe that their published adventures are better than any other game except that you said it.

So guess what. D&D published adventurers are vastly superior to WFRP ones.

Now you have to present some kind of evidence that WFRP published adventures are vastly superior. Until you do, stop pretending that they are and talking like you have given any evidence at all.

[NineInchNall]

This thread brings me joy and joyness.

Care to elaborate?

It's nice to find other people who dislike WFRP is all. I had to suffer through people calling me a munchkin just 'cause I didn't like it.

[Username17]

There's a pretty good discussion about The Enemy Within campaign on Wikipedia. It's basically pretty accurate. I think it's important to note that Casus Belli magazine was a French Language fantasy gaming magazine that focused on GW stuff. So being voted best adventure of all time by them isn't super meaningful.

Frankly, if you go through the Origins Awards, it's D&D or Call of Cthulhu winning most years. And frankly, while we rag on Red Hand of Doom and City of the Spider Queen, those adventures are pretty damn cool and they win awards for a reason. Council of Wyrms? Yes please. Unseen Masters? Damn right. There are exceptions of course. Like Paranoia's Yellow Clearance Black Box Blues and White Wolf's Last Supper: The Giovanni Chronicles. But WHFRP never won dick, nor did it deserve to.

In fact, The Enemy Within could have won the best adventure, but it didn't because it was beaten out by Harlequin for Shadowrun. Now personally, I think that's ridiculous. Shadowrun should have won for Universal Brotherhood.

-Username17

[angelfromanotherpin]

Hey, if that's the limit of your ability, so be it. Of course, you haven't even done that much, but okeedokee. Understanding a way to disprove a thesis is not actually disproving a thesis, though.

Well, since you're a demonstrated goalpost-mover, I'm not really motivated to discuss the issue with you. But if you want me to take you to school, you don't have to be passive-aggressive and snide, you just have to ask.

Doom314, you haven't played even every role-playing game with published adventures, let alone every published adventure for every role-playing game. So you don't even have the authority to state the thesis with any credibility in the first place.

In fact, I'm willing to bet you haven't even played every published adventure for WFRP, because for every adventure as excellent as one of The Enemy Within chapters there was at least one low-grade one-session railroad-happy piece of crap published in White Dwarf magazine. So the average quality of the WFRP published adventures is not actually that great.

Compare that to, for example, Rune, which has exactly two published adventures, both of which are awesome. Or The Mountain Witch, which has exactly one published scenario, which is also awesome. Those two games bat 1.000 by virtue of lack of volume.

I was sort of talking about fantasy role playing (and yes, that's not exactly and precisely to the exclusion of all other things what I said, mea culpa), and I admit I may have overstepped my bounds. But it does seem the best anyone can come up with "there are some in other genres that are also top notch".

While I appreciate the apology, I should mention that you've managed to move into 'no true Scotsman' territory.

But okay, you want to cut back to fantasy gaming only now. Well, you still haven't played a sufficient sample of the published adventures to make the statement with authority, but at the same time, both Rune and The Mountain Witch are fantasy games, and you're still losing even in the smaller pond you've cut back to.

But don't worry, I'm sure you can claim you meant an even smaller subset of...

any other system.

[Doom]

Hey, here I thought this was an "in my humble opinion" forum. My bad. Seriously, it's quite impossible to prove any game system has the best of anything, nor is it possible prove that it isn't the best, or even prove that anything is 'good' or 'not good'. I thought that was sort of obvious, but if you think you're scoring points by doing so, good for you. I didn't bother 'backing up' my alleged 'thesis' about the quality of the adventures because, after all, it's a matter of opinion which would accomplish nothing. I merely was suggesting, in my opinion, the strength of WFRP, in response to someone who, I thought in my opinion, asked.

Let's turn it around, though.

Say, can you prove that I haven't read all possible adventures in all possible systems? If you're going to be this ridiculous about it, I'd like you follow up. No need to be an asshat, just prove it.

Also, when will you be proving that you've played through the Enemy Within Campaign a few times? I never claimed every adventure for WFRP was the best (pretty stupid thing to claim, but nifty straw man, I admit), and I consider this straw man to be roughly equivalent.

Finally, can you give that example you mentioned about EvilWizardington?

So, let me clarify for this opinion forum, something which is my opinion, and not to be taken as objective reality. In my opinion, for this opinion forum, it is my opinion that in my opinion WFRP has some of the best adventures of those that in my opinion I've played, in my opinion. Note: I'm stating this as my own personal opinion, and fully acknowledge other opinions may differ.

Does that keep you calmer?

Alternatively, get a grip, going nuts when someone uses hyperbole in an opinion forum isn't a good idea.

[angelfromanotherpin]

Hey, here I thought this was an "in my humble opinion" forum. My bad.

Is that why you had such a problem with my opinion? You can't have it both ways.

Say, can you prove that you've read all possible adventures in all possible systems?

No, but then my claims were rather more modest than yours, requiring proportionately more modest reading.

And seriously, cut the false politeness shit the fuck out. It's really insulting and it doesn't make you look clever. It's more like you're trying to moon me, but instead your pants fall down and everyone sees your tiny dick.

[Doom]

Oh, touche, touche. I guess, although I never expressed anything approaching the problems you had.

But seriously, though, can you follow up?

I'll spot you the one about 'any system'...I really think it would be clear that I was only talking about games I knew about, and confess I haven't played every game ever made.

Similarly, I get the impression you've never actually played TEW, so I'll give that one to you also...it's not particularly relevant, though, since it would still be a matter of opinion on whether this series of adventures was any good.

But, seriously, though, I really would like to see that Evilwizardington.

[Doom]

There's a pretty good discussion about The Enemy Within campaign on Wikipedia. It's basically pretty accurate. I think it's important to note that Casus Belli magazine was a French Language fantasy gaming magazine that focused on GW stuff. So being voted best adventure of all time by them isn't super meaningful.

In fact, The Enemy Within could have won the best adventure, but it didn't because it was beaten out by Harlequin for Shadowrun. Now personally, I think that's ridiculous. Shadowrun should have won for Universal Brotherhood.

-Username17

Enemy Within is not an adventure, it's a whole campaign, spread out over multiple modules/books/box sets. Even if game awards were meaningful, I'm not convinced The Enemy Within campaign winning an award would be meaningful anyway. How many 'campaigns' even come out in a particular year? There may as well have been the "Warhammer Campaign Award for best Warhammer Campaign" award or something, for all the relevance such a win means.

In response to the question of 'what do the adventures look like', allow me to go over Shadows of Bogenhafen, an early adventure for the Enemy Within Campaign, dug out from my closet.

Naturally, this is from 1987, so it may be worthwhile to put it in context of what 'modules' looked like in other game systems:

Like a TSR module, the outside cover is printed on heavy stock paper. Really seems nicer quality (IN MY OPINION), and it's full color, with vastly more detailed artwork than Fraim (which is not to slur Fraim in any way).

Inside, is a 45 page book detailing the module, longer than many other adventures of that era. Expedition to the Barrier Peaks, a very long adventure for TSR, was at 32 pages.

Of course, Expedition had those drawings to show the players at times, whereas Bogenhafen has a handul of player handouts (notes and clues), with considerable (in my opinion, almost every page) artwork in the book that the GM could well show the players at the appropriate time.

Bogenhafen also has a reasonably well (in my opinion) mapped entire medieval city, supported with a gazetteer (8 pages, 2 of which, strangely, count in the 45 page count above) describing many things about the city, giving players a reasonable opportunity to run around and do whatever.

A carnival is also detailed adequately, as well as considerable discussion of the political situation within Bogenhafen, and the obligatory sewers, with a timeline given for what's happening/should happen in the city, given the players actions or lack thereof.

Oh yes, there's a full color battle map for the final battle (this was over 20 years ago, although such is common today).

Better than Giant Frog? Obviously just a matter of opinion, but having run at least 3 different parties through it and having it play out at least 3 different ways, I still put this, in my opinion, a cut above many other modules out there, and I apologize for any hyperbole I may have used earlier.

[Kaelik]

Just out of curiosity, what does any of that crap have to do with the actual module.

I'm pretty sure you just told us it's a better module because the cover is pretty, it's got more pages, and it has handouts, absolutely zero of which factors into my account of what makes a good module.

[angelfromanotherpin]

Hm, looks like there was a substantial edit to your post while I was responding. Let me go back a bit.

Say, can you prove that I haven't read all possible adventures in all possible systems? If you're going to be this ridiculous about it, I'd like you follow up. No need to be an asshat, just prove it.

So, you're asking me to prove a negative? That's... special, man. Good luck with that. However, I am as sure as I can reasonably be, given a combination of sheer volume and exclusive-to-various-country releases.

Also, when will you be proving that you've played through the Enemy Within Campaign a few times?

I'm curious, why would it be at all necessary to prove that I've played through it even once? In fact, we stopped after Shadows Over Bögenhafen was spoiled because the secret villain's last name was German for fiendish and we'd played that game before.

I never claimed every adventure for WFRP was the best (pretty stupid thing to claim, but nifty straw man, I admit), and I consider this straw man to be roughly equivalent.

Well, if you didn't mean to make that claim, you communicated it badly.

Finally, can you give that example you mentioned about EvilWizardington?

It's not a single example, they did that all the time. Enough so that when Mr. Fiendish turned up, it was an established pattern. How about we crack The Power Behind The Throne, another one of The Enemy Within books? Let's do that, shall we?

Josef Sparsam (frugal), accountant.
Hildegard Zimperlich (prissy), chaperone.
Ulrich Schutzman (protection-man), commander of the watch.
Albrecht Helseher (clairvoyant), high wizard.
Kirsten Jung (young), Petra Liebkosen (cuddly) and Natasha Sinnlich (voluptuous), the ladies at court.
Siegfried Prunkvoll (pompous), pompous knight.
Reiner Ehrlich (honest), good-aligned lawyer.
Gotthard Goebbels, the alias of a secret chaos cultist. Not a pun, but even less subtle.

Now, that's not all of the NPCs, but it is a significant chunk of them. The main secret villain's name is Wasmeier, which I think is slang for creepy, but I'm not sure, so I'm not counting it.

Alternatively, get a grip, going nuts when someone uses hyperbole in an opinion forum isn't a good idea.

You've got a pretty weird idea of going nuts. You used hyperbole, and I said it wasn't true. Then you got huffy with me about contesting your statement, which you now admit was intentionally not true from the beginning. That's very strange behavior.

Anyway, you're just boiling over with intellectual dishonesty, so I'm done talking to you until you can behave like a grown-up.

[Doom]

Umm...yeah, ok.

Let's see here...refusing to back up your own accusation because by your own admission it's a stupid accusation, saying a campaign you're not familiar with--by your own admission--is bad, and no EvilWizardington and you have to go to a single adventure where the names were a THEME to come arguably close...and accusing me of intellectual dishonesty?

The latter muck-up takes the cake.

Dude, seriously, The Enemy Within has over a dozen NPCs the players must interact with on a regular basis (and not in a combat way, very few adventures fit that description, in my opinion)...the names were deliberately chosen as a mnemonic aid, so that nobody has to sit and remember everything every time any NPC starts talking.

As for Bogenhafen, a picture of the villain, with a demon beside him, is on the COVER of the module for chrissake, pretty sure the name wasn't giving away much. Non-retarded players who don't look at the cover still figure out who the bad guy is pretty quickly even without the name, honest.

Next you'll be complaining because Expedition to the Barrier Peaks was TOTALLY RUINED FOR ALL TIME !!!!1111lol111 because of the adventurers with blasters on the cover.

Anyway, having conceded you never even played the compaign, your motives for coming and arguing about it are internetically clear.

You win!

<backs away slowly>

[Crissa]

Oy, why with the one-upmanship?

I worked in a game store. We actually carried WHFR, and you know what? It stunk. And sat in the back of the store the entire time I was there, no one ever bought the damn thing.

-Crissa

[Doom]

Just out of curiosity, what does any of that crap have to do with the actual module.

I'm pretty sure you just told us it's a better module because the cover is pretty, it's got more pages, and it has handouts, absolutely zero of which factors into my account of what makes a good module.

Eh, consider reading more carefully, a few other things were brought up. It's really not worth it for me to argue this point, since whether something is good is a matter of opinion, as is whether larger, more detail, more artwork, and variety of outcomes has anything to do with being even remotely an improvement. Take it or leave it, or engage in more pointless attacks.

[Doom]

Oy, why with the one-upmanship?

I worked in a game store. We actually carried WHFR, and you know what? It stunk. And sat in the back of the store the entire time I was there, no one ever bought the damn thing.

-Crissa

Heck if I know, but some folks having little better to do than go ape over hyperbole and act like it's a real intellectual achievement to show it's not provably true.

WFRP certainly isn't the greatest game ever (damn, more hyperbole, you gonna fling more at me, pin?), but I've more than gotten my money's worth out of the books and adventures, and not alot of games can make that claim.

Mileage may vary, and just only what I've directly observed.