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[Username17]

Seelah isn't the only one who has crazy bullshit buffs on. The Gelugon has Unholy Aura. Every time Seelah melee attacks she has to make a Fort save (DC 23) or lose a d6 points of strength. That can get a death spiral going pretty bad. But also remember that you're calling down short duration buffs that are only usable a few times a day and it has reach on you. So in the melee slugfest you're looking at giving away more turns than it is. It literally attacks more times in melee than Seelah does. Worse, because both characters are looking to hand out molasses effects on their opponent it is paramount to note that the Gelugon has reach on Seelah. So if it slows Seelah it can attack and take a step back and Seelah is fucked until the slow ends. If Seelah staggers the Gelugon it still gets to make a regular attack no matter what because she can't get out of range without drawing an attack of opportunity.

But also, it flies and Seelah does not. And it has reach. So Gelugon is attacking in melee and Seelah has to use a bow - drawing an attack of opportunity every single shot (Gelugon has Combat Reflexes and a Dex bonus of +5). Frankly, it's pretty grim. This is before we go to Gelugon's really badass options like teleporting out the moment Seelah uses up resources on short duration buffs and returning at the next commercial break or dropping a persistent image of thick fog and then spamming area attacks on the Paladin and laughing as she is forced to guess what squares the Gelugon hovered to each round to try to tag it with an arrow.

3.5 Gelugons are fairly simple, especially compared to their laundry list of awesometastic crazery that they got in 3rd edition. But they have more than enough options to turn our pitiful Paizo fiend hunter into raspberry jam.

-Username17

[Kaelik]

Pretty sure you forgot this: Spell-Like Abilities
At will—cone of cold (DC 20), fly, ice storm (DC 19), greater teleport (self plus 50 pounds of objects only), persistent image (DC 20), unholy aura (DC 23), wall of ice (DC 19). Caster level 13th. The save DCs are Charisma-based.

Summon Devil (Sp)
Once per day an ice devil can attempt to summon 2d10 lemures or 1d6 bearded devils, 2d4 bone devils with a 50% chance of success, or another ice devil with a 20% chance of success. This ability is the equivalent of a 4th-level spell.

Space/Reach: 10 ft./10 ft.

[PoliteNewb]

But also, it flies and Seelah does not.

Not to contradict you, Frank, but...

Combat Gear: staff of healing, winged boots; Other Gear +3 defending longsword, +1 composite longbow (+4 Str), mithral full plate of speed, +3 heavy steel shield, belt of giant strength +2, headband of alluring charisma +2, ring of minor cold resistance, ring of protection +2

I'm just sayin'...

EDIT: Ah, fuck. Sorry.

[DMReckless]

Seelah isn't the only one who has crazy bullshit buffs on. The Gelugon has Unholy Aura. Every time Seelah melee attacks she has to make a Fort save (DC 23) or lose a d6 points of strength. That can get a death spiral going pretty bad. But also remember that you're calling down short duration buffs that are only usable a few times a day and it has reach on you. So in the melee slugfest you're looking at giving away more turns than it is. It literally attacks more times in melee than Seelah does. Worse, because both characters are looking to hand out molasses effects on their opponent it is paramount to note that the Gelugon has reach on Seelah. So if it slows Seelah it can attack and take a step back and Seelah is fucked until the slow ends. If Seelah staggers the Gelugon it still gets to make a regular attack no matter what because she can't get out of range without drawing an attack of opportunity.

But also, it flies and Seelah does not. And it has reach. So Gelugon is attacking in melee and Seelah has to use a bow - drawing an attack of opportunity every single shot (Gelugon has Combat Reflexes and a Dex bonus of +5). Frankly, it's pretty grim. This is before we go to Gelugon's really badass options like teleporting out the moment Seelah uses up resources on short duration buffs and returning at the next commercial break or dropping a persistent image of thick fog and then spamming area attacks on the Paladin and laughing as she is forced to guess what squares the Gelugon hovered to each round to try to tag it with an arrow.

3.5 Gelugons are fairly simple, especially compared to their laundry list of awesometastic crazery that they got in 3rd edition. But they have more than enough options to turn our pitiful Paizo fiend hunter into raspberry jam.

-Username17

Ok, first, she has winged boots (in the stat block), so she can fly (yes, short duration, I know, long enough for this combat, though.)

Second 10' reach. Meet 5' step. Even slowed people get this. Yes, the Gelugon can make a single melee and then move far enough away that Seelah can't attack except with her bow. But that eliminates your AoO scenario, as well as multiple attacks per round. Also, she could close in on him (even slowed), forcing him to choose between multiple attacks or 1 attack and movement which would provoke and AoO from her, or retreat and moving forward to attack on another round. 10' reach has its advantages, but immunity to melee attacks is not one of them.

The Persistent Image has a 30% chance of working. 20% if she has Protection from Evil up. Maybe worth it, maybe a waste of a turn.

The Unholy Blight is a problem (didn't read it close enough the first time, obviously) in that she really needs to get 147/45.5=3.23 hits on him, so she'll likely suffer .45x3.5x3.23=5.08 Strength Damage in those three hits. It's probably closer to 4 hits with the downward spiral.

Buffs I applied: Protection From Evil (10 minutes), Divine Bond (13 minutes)
Buffs you applied: Unholy Aura (13 rounds)

The real problem, reading through the BETA, is that I'll probably have to re-do the math since I'm not sure Bane can be applied with Divine Bond (it wasn't one of the options in the Beta, nor mentioned in the Blog)

[DMReckless]

Pretty sure you forgot this: Spell-Like Abilities
At will—cone of cold (DC 20), fly, ice storm (DC 19), greater teleport (self plus 50 pounds of objects only), persistent image (DC 20), unholy aura (DC 23), wall of ice (DC 19). Caster level 13th. The save DCs are Charisma-based.

Summon Devil (Sp)
Once per day an ice devil can attempt to summon 2d10 lemures or 1d6 bearded devils, 2d4 bone devils with a 50% chance of success, or another ice devil with a 20% chance of success. This ability is the equivalent of a 4th-level spell.

Space/Reach: 10 ft./10 ft.

Winged Boots
Protection From Evil (vs. Summoning)
5' Step

Also Spell-Like Abilities


Any idea why I'm suddenly right-aligned?

[Username17]

But Unholy Aura is at will. It has that up all the time. Yes, if it goes unconscious the unholy aura will dissipate in just 13 rounds, but it's up every combat.

So our Gelugon has several options to "I win".

• Slap down a Wall of Ice or five the moment that Seelah takes to the air and run the boots out of juice. Then begin the raping.
• Summon up a small army of 5 Bone Devils and 3.5 Bearded Devils. This only has a 50% chance of going off, and he only gets the one shot. Noone knows why it has the opportunity to trade 8 badasses for 2d10 Lemurs, but he's obviously not going to do that. If the Osyluths appear, it is game over because they actually have a very CMBD/SM score and five of them will grapple and pin Seelah in one round from reach range while the primary Gelugon wanders up and starts CoupdeFuckyou.
• Put up a series of Persistent Images between himself and Seelah. Until Seelah closes with one she doesn't even get a save. But Gelugon can attack of opportunity from full concealment with the spear if she gets close. That's just a world of pain and there is very little she can do about it.
• Use the fact that it never ever runs out of normal magic charges and can greater teleport at will to reset the battle any time Seelah spends any resources on anything.

The Gelugon is just much more tactically versatile than the Paladin. The ball is completely in his court and he need only suffer any meaningful threat from the Paladin if he chooses to. And for an Int 22 immortal, that just doesn't sound likely.

-Username17

[TarkisFlux]

Any idea why I'm suddenly right-aligned?

Someone ended a post with a tag open... Looks like PoliteNewb...

[Leress]

Winged boots take a standard action to activate. (Unless this was changed in Pathfinder)

[DMReckless]

But Unholy Aura is at will. It has that up all the time. Yes, if it goes unconscious the unholy aura will dissipate in just 13 rounds, but it's up every combat.

Well, does it spend every 14th round of its life casting the sla? Not likely. Until the first "reset", or after the first round. Same goes, of course, for the Paladin's buffs. But not for her Smite.

So our Gelugon has several options to "I win".

• Slap down a Wall of Ice or five the moment that Seelah takes to the air and run the boots out of juice. Then begin the raping.

I'm guessing we're assuming enclosed space or sphere, as each wall is a standard action on the Gel's part, and without either of those, little is done to block flight.

[*] Summon up a small army of 5 Bone Devils and 3.5 Bearded Devils. This only has a 50% chance of going off, and he only gets the one shot. Noone knows why it has the opportunity to trade 8 badasses for 2d10 Lemurs, but he's obviously not going to do that. If the Osyluths appear, it is game over because they actually have a very CMBD/SM score and five of them will grapple and pin Seelah in one round from reach range while the primary Gelugon wanders up and starts CoupdeFuckyou.

This is why Seelah has Dispel Magic and Protection from Evil. Neither completely eliminates the threat, but it is reduced.

[*] Put up a series of Persistent Images between himself and Seelah. Until Seelah closes with one she doesn't even get a save. But Gelugon can attack of opportunity from full concealment with the spear if she gets close. That's just a world of pain and there is very little she can do about it.

Again, each block uses a standard action.

[*] Use the fact that it never ever runs out of normal magic charges and can greater teleport at will to reset the battle any time Seelah spends any resources on anything.[/list]

The Gelugon is just much more tactically versatile than the Paladin. The ball is completely in his court and he need only suffer any meaningful threat from the Paladin if he chooses to. And for an Int 22 immortal, that just doesn't sound likely.

-Username17

I absolutely agree with you on this. The existence of an at will greater teleport trumps anything the Paladin, oh, and almost every other class in the game, can do. What class(es) would you use to take one of these monsters down? And what tactics? Edit-And what kinds of abilities would you have given the Paladin to deal with devils/demons?

[DMReckless]

Winged boots take a standard action to activate. (Unless this was changed in Pathfinder)

So does Spell-Like Ability: Fly

[imperialspectre]

Winged boots take a standard action to activate. (Unless this was changed in Pathfinder)

So does Spell-Like Ability: Fly

Sure, but even if the winged boots last 1 min/CL (I'm not familiar with the item, and it's not in any of the Pathfinder .pdfs), the CL of the boots will likely be lower than the Gelugon's CL. That's yet another action economy advantage going to the Gelugon.

[Kaelik]

Worse than that. The Gelugon has it at will, meaning he actually does spend a whole six seconds refreshing his fly every 10 minutes. He actually has always on fly.

Other things:

Dispel Magic does nothing, Prot Evil doesn't protect against Glaives and Ice walls + clustering.

The summons can actually seal the Paladin inside a shell of summons, forcing him to attack them to do anything, at which point, they all grapple his ass.

The Persistent Images can effectively give a free attack to the Ice Devil every round. He casts a sufficiently good image, Paladin spends round attempting to interact with it. He then gets a save, and maybe an AoO to the face (with slow as a rider). Ice Devil creates another one, or full attacks if the Paladin fails his save.

Every round he uses Image is a round the Paladin literally can't attack him, and that's hilarious for someone who is apparently casting buff spells and activating items.

[Username17]

Well, does it spend every 14th round of its life casting the sla? Not likely. Until the first "reset", or after the first round. Same goes, of course, for the Paladin's buffs.

I do not regard the 3 seconds of silent concentration that the Gelugon can undertake an unlimited number of times in a day or its life to be a meaningful restriction on its prebuffing. We're talking about a monster with a Move Silently (Stealth) bonus of +22 and Listen (Perception) bonus of +25. It is flat unreasonable to expect that battle will begin with the Gelugon not having all of its at-will buffs available. It's not even on the RNG, the Gelugon will be aware of the Paladin before the opposite is true. Since spell like abilities don't make any noise, the Gelugon simply gets to activate its buffs. Whether it normally wanders around refreshing its buffs as they expire or not. Battle begins when the Gelugon does something the Paladin might notice. Like putting up a Persistent Image screen or summoning an army of ass kicking devils. Or spear charging from above.

I'm guessing we're assuming enclosed space or sphere, as each wall is a standard action on the Gel's part, and without either of those, little is done to block flight.

Well I don't really see what difference it makes. The Wall of Ice can be made into hemispheres that enclose people. They only get a save if they are within 5' of the outer rim, and the Gelugon can make them with a 3 square radius. So that's that as far as I can tell.

I absolutely agree with you on this. The existence of an at will greater teleport trumps anything the Paladin, oh, and almost every other class in the game, can do. What class(es) would you use to take one of these monsters down? And what tactics?

You're 13th level. Cast a Holy Word. You should have a better than 50% chance of winning the fight the moment you get the chance to take an action if you're a 13th level Fiend Hunter. Or go halfling hurler and spazz out with like a gajillion acid flasks. It has Acid Resistance 10, but you're doing 33 damage per shot these days. And you get a lot of shots if you play your cards right. It only has a Touch AC of 18. And it only has a Flat Footed Touch AC of 13 - and that's what you should be targeting as one of those bad boys. Or hell, it only has 147 hit points. You should be able to Griffon Lance it to incapacitation if you get a clear shot.

You're 13th level, think of something. The Gelugon literally laughs at people who think Force Cage is the only spell they need, and it makes merciless fun of the people who use expensive short duration buffs. But high level D&D is full of one hit kills. It has SR 25 and a Fort save of +19. That's pretty resilient. But if you can't murder that in one shot or maybe two I am openly contemptuous of you as a necromancer.

-Username17

[Leress]

Sure, but even if the winged boots last 1 min/CL (I'm not familiar with the item, and it's not in any of the Pathfinder .pdfs), the CL of the boots will likely be lower than the Gelugon's CL. That's yet another action economy advantage going to the Gelugon.

Here it's in the SRD

Boots, Winged

These boots appear to be ordinary footgear. On command, the boots sprout wings at the heel and let the wearer fly, without having to maintain concentration, as if affected by a fly spell. He can fly three times per day for up to 5 minutes per flight.

Faint transmutation; CL 5th; Craft Wondrous Item, fly; Price 16,000 gp; Weight 1 lb.

[DragonChild]

Or go halfling hurler and spazz out with like a gajillion acid flasks. It has Acid Resistance 10, but you're doing 33 damage per shot these days.

Or better yet, holy water.

[hogarth]

Or go halfling hurler and spazz out with like a gajillion acid flasks. It has Acid Resistance 10, but you're doing 33 damage per shot these days.

Not in Pathfinder; you specifically can't sneak attack with a grenade-like weapon.

[DMReckless]

Holy Word vs. HD=to Caster Level= save or Deafened. Nope, that doesn't matter.

Halfling Hurler might be able to get close enough to get sneak attack without being able to be detected. Of course, if you don't kill the Gel in that initial salvo, the Gel has all the options open to it as it does against the pally, only you have worse Will and Fort Saves. Your greater evasion will come in handy, though.

Honestly,, what makes you think a Griffon Lance has a chance of getting a "clear shot" any more than the Paladin?

If the necromancer fails in his first shot, does the Gel coming back with his army a few minutes later, completely buffed up, laying down Int 22 tactics, not present a problem to him as well?

[Kaelik]

Or go halfling hurler and spazz out with like a gajillion acid flasks. It has Acid Resistance 10, but you're doing 33 damage per shot these days.

Not in Pathfinder; you specifically can't sneak attack with a grenade-like weapon.

Ah yes, cute Pathfinder. Back when Frank was trying to help, he would show that some characters *coughPaladincough* couldn't even match themselves against the stuff they were supposed to be good at. Everyone would counter by claiming that no character that wasn't broken could ever handle an encounter of EL=level.

Frank presents: Acid Flask Rogue, Specialist Transmuter, Gnome Charge Paladins (who still suck, but aren't as bad as human sword paladins). Cleric. Druid.

So what does Pathfinder do? Fix the Sword Paladin? Of course not.

The declare no SA on touch attacks, nerf save or dies (you know, in a way that doesn't even touch the Transmuters actual spells Flesh to Stone and Baleful Polymorph), Probably fuck up mounted combat somehow, who fucking knows with Clerics, make Wildshape suck as if that fixes the Animal Companion + Summon + combat form + casting Baleful Polymorph Druid thing.

[Kaelik]

Holy Word vs. HD=to Caster Level= save or Deafened. Nope, that doesn't matter.

1) There is no save against the effects dumb fuck.

2) That's what Pearls of Power are for. Not to mention why any level 13 character would have CL 13 is beyond me.

If the necromancer fails in his first shot, does the Gel coming back with his army a few minutes later, completely buffed up, laying down Int 22 tactics, not present a problem to him as well?

Well when he shows back up the undead army clashes with the demon one, and the Wizard just casts Finger of Death again. So yeah, pretty sure that he can manage.

The point is that those characters all have a 40-60% chance of winning the fight. As opposed to you know a 0% chance.

[Username17]

Holy Word vs. HD=to Caster Level= save or Deafened. Nope, that doesn't matter.

It's extraplanar. It gets booted out of existence. It has Greater Teleport, not Greater Planeshift. You win instantly if you pass SR.

Honestly,, what makes you think a Griffon Lance has a chance of getting a "clear shot" any more than the Paladin?

Because a properly made Lancer at this level has a charge range of 480 feet or more. And presumably some ninja skills. So they might have a chance of getting off a death blossom. They are not, for example, attempting to clank up to within 40 feet of a Gelugon.

---

But yeah, Kaelik covered it. Pathfinder isn't making characters who get their asses handed to them by their supposed prey on accident - it's a consistent pattern. Every time it comes to their attention that a character somewhere is actually able to face challenges of their level past level 3 or so Jason covers himself with feces and throws nonsensical nerfs all over the place. I love the "Only Rogues use Rings of Blink, so we need to make Rings of Blink not work for Rogues." tirade.

This Paladin blows because all Pathfinder characters are supposed to blow. They are supposed to go up against Storm Giants and get torn in fucking half. That's the design goal as far as I can tell. Actually beating monsters is something only munchkins do.

-Username17

[DMReckless]

Holy Word vs. HD=to Caster Level= save or Deafened. Nope, that doesn't matter.

1) There is no save against the effects dumb fuck.

Fine, Spell Resistance, Asshat. And Deafened still doesn't really fucking matter.


2) That's what Pearls of Power are for. Not to mention why any level 13 character would have CL 13 is beyond me.

Oh noes, Blinded (5 rounds) and Deafened (2.5 rounds) Whatever will I do? Greater Teleport. Tap feet for a minute, come back and kick the turd's ass.

BTW wtf are you saying Pearls of Power are good for?

"This seemingly normal pearl of average size and luster is a potent aid to all spellcasters who prepare spells (clerics, druids, rangers, paladins, and wizards). Once per day on command, a pearl of power enables the possessor to recall any one spell that she had prepared and then cast."

I believe Frank was referencing the banishment properties of Holy Word(really gotta start reading more thoroughly,) anyway, which makes a lot more sense. They do grant a save to negate (-4 Will) (after passing the SR, and that would be a pretty good tactic against outsiders you don't want to deal with.

Oh, maybe you mean casting the Holy Word again if it fails to banish the first time. Sure that could be handy, if you don't mind having 35% of yourwealth/resources tied up into it. EDIT-and ASSuming that the Gel gets back within 40' of you ever again.

If the necromancer fails in his first shot, does the Gel coming back with his army a few minutes later, completely buffed up, laying down Int 22 tactics, not present a problem to him as well?

Well when he shows back up the undead army clashes with the demon one, and the Wizard just casts Finger of Death again. So yeah, pretty sure that he can manage.

Who is he targeting with the Finger? he's surrounded by Ice Walls and Persistent Images, or being pelted by Ice Storms, all of which have way better range than FoD, and no way the Gel's stupid enough to get in range of that thing again.

[Kaelik]

BTW wtf are you saying Pearls of Power are good for?

I'm sorry, I often call Beads of Karma Pearls of Power. My mistake.

EDIT-and ASSuming that the Gel gets back within 40' of you ever again.

Range: 40ft, Area 40ft. It's within 80ft. Also, see Necromancer note.

Who is he targeting with the Finger? he's surrounded by Ice Walls and Persistent Images, or being pelted by Ice Storms, all of which have way better range than FoD, and no way the Gel's stupid enough to get in range of that thing again.

Teleporting back is an action. If he teleports back anywhere within 60ft plus the move speed of a Dragon Zombie (or the 560ft Run speed of a Phantom Steed) He gets Finger of Deathed before he can ever cast Persistent Image or Ice wall.

The point is that unlike a Paladin who has to spend a standard action activating flying boots and the close with him, a Wizard who has all day fly and a ranged attack can actually do something on the round the Devil returns. Not to mention the whole True Seeing and crap. Not that Finger of Death is his only spell.

But you know what. The fucking Wizard is immune to any kind of actual threat from the Ice Devil at range greater than 10ft.

If the Ice Devil is 15ft or greater away, he is completely incapable of harming the Wizard in any way.

[DMReckless]

But yeah, Kaelik covered it. Pathfinder isn't making characters who get their asses handed to them by their supposed prey on accident - it's a consistent pattern. Every time it comes to their attention that a character somewhere is actually able to face challenges of their level past level 3 or so Jason covers himself with feces and throws nonsensical nerfs all over the place. I love the "Only Rogues use Rings of Blink, so we need to make Rings of Blink not work for Rogues." tirade.

This Paladin blows because all Pathfinder characters are supposed to blow. They are supposed to go up against Storm Giants and get torn in fucking half. That's the design goal as far as I can tell. Actually beating monsters is something only munchkins do.

-Username17

I haven't read enough of your stuff to know for sure, but from what I have read, it seems you prefer your games to have 1- or2- round combats(rocket launcher tag is your term, I believe), would that be a correct assessment? I'm trying to get a better viewpoint to your prefered playstyle/game design theory.

I suppose I'll get a much more intimate view once I've read through the tome pdf.

[DMReckless]

Range: 40ft, Area 40ft. It's within 80ft. Also, see Necromancer note.

Area: Nongood creatures in a 40-ft.-radius spread centered on you

Teleporting back is an action. If he teleports back anywhere within 60ft plus the move speed of a Dragon Zombie (or the 560ft Run speed of a Phantom Steed) He gets Finger of Deathed before he can ever cast Persistent Image or Ice wall.

The point is that unlike a Paladin who has to spend a standard action activating flying boots and the close with him, a Wizard who has all day fly and a ranged attack can actually do something on the round the Devil returns. Not to mention the whole True Seeing and crap. Not that Finger of Death is his only spell.

But you know what. The fucking Wizard is immune to any kind of actual threat from the Ice Devil at range greater than 10ft.

If the Ice Devil is 15ft or greater away, he is completely incapable of harming the Wizard in any way.

I'll take your word for it. You guys have way more expertise at high level play than I ever will. (Not that you don't make mistakes.) I know casters rule high level D&D. Always have, always will. Even high level Pathfinder, I'm sure.

[Psychic Robot]

This is stupid. Instead of comparing the paladin to the wizard, cleric, or druid--who all "rule the roost," so to speak--why don't we compare the paladin to his peers? As in, the classes that aren't primary spellcasters. Can the paladin take equal-CR opponents? There are undoubtedly some cases in which he can, but, more often than not, he cannot. (Battle Blessing + SpC is still nifty, though.) And the point of proving this is what? That non-casters are underpowered? That Paizo lied to the gaming public? We all know that. We all know that demons and devils and anything that can fly or teleport laugh at the classes that can't.

Furthermore, there's no point in using the Paizo iconic. The Paizo characters suck and are completely unoptimized--we know this for a fact, as evidenced by poor Valeros. A level 1 wizard could beat up their level 14 fighter. A level 1 orc wizard could beat up their level 14 fighter. So this entire mathematical analysis is, overall, completely pointless and thus a total waste of time.