4E hates small characters.

[RandomCasualty2]

That's a strawman of course, since no one was heretofore suggesting that swordsmen should play the same as spearmen, but I should point out at this point that in a game where "guy who shoots ice beams" and "guy who causes fiery explosions" are considered "the same" that perhaps varying the ratio of wood to metal on your handheld pokey bit is a poor place to draw the line on an archetype. But regardless, the point here is that whatever niches you happen to define should defend themselves as niches by contributing in an obvious fashion and distinguishing themselves from other niches.

Well it's more that large warriors should play different from small ones. A hill giant should play different than a halfling for instance. That's more what I was going for, instead of comparing sword versus spear.

So I'm okay if small people aren't great reach fighters, or if hill giants can't be artful dodgers. Seriously, that's part of the reason we have races in the first place.

[sake]

I forget the 4E rules for large creatures, is there anything actually stopping hill giants from being artful dodgers?

[Korwin]

Dont know the rules at al. But I suppose they have an Dex Mali, oh sorry I mean not an Dex Boni...

[MartinHarper]

I forget the 4E rules for large creatures, is there anything actually stopping hill giants from being artful dodgers?

No, but all the core player races are medium or small. I looked at homebrewing a large player race, and it seemed hard to get right - and not just because of Brutal 2 weapons.

[hogarth]

Yeah, because the 5 and a half foot human carrying a 12-foot pike is so much less stupid.

I really wish people would stop sticking their 'lol selective realism' dicks into game balance.

I agree that if humans get a 15' long weapon, then it's fair to have a halfling with an 8' long weapon. But they don't, so they don't.

[Fuchs]

I am not sure pikes of 15' length would fit in well - due to the dense formation they require their wielders would become prime fireball targets.

[SunTzuWarmaster]

Why isn't it enough to say:
Small - +2 Dex, -2 Str, move 20.
Medium - no adjustments
Large - -2 Dex, +2 Str, move 40.

Large creatures are slower and stronger than Medium creatures. Small creatures are faster and weaker than Medium creatures. Everybody gets a Size (+2, -2), and a Race (+2, +2).

You can then play the Gnome as Small, Smart, and Tough (+2 Dex, -2 Str, +2 Int, +2 Con), the Elf as Medium, Quick, and Smart (+2 Dex, +2 Int), and the Hill Giant as Large, Strong, and Tough (+4 Str, -2 Dex, +2 Con).

Now your Goblin (+4 Dex) swordsman can fight on even ground with the Hill Giant (-2 Dex, +4 Str, +2 Con) swordsman. You can even give them the same damage die.

[MartinHarper]

Gnomes in WoW can use the same things as a Tauren.

Not true: gnomes can't use shaman totems, for example.

The 15 classes are Strength/Wisdom, Charisma/Constitution, and so on.k

Actually, thirty. Strength/Wisdom/Medium, Charisma/Constitution/Small, and so on.

[Count Arioch the 28th]

Not true: gnomes can't use shaman totems, for example.

And Tauren can't use wands, but that's not the point and you know it, you are being argumentative for the sake of hearing your keyboard rattle.

[MartinHarper]

And Tauren can't use wands, but that's not the point and you know it, you are being argumentative for the sake of hearing your keyboard rattle.

The point is that WoW has class/race restrictions that are in fact more restrictive than 4e halflings not being able to use pikes, so it is a dumb example to use if you're arguing for dwarf-throwing pixies.
Yes, WoW does demonstrate that you can give every PC a melee reach of 5ft and be done with it. But d&d doesn't give every PC the same melee reach, so I fail to see the relevance.

[Starmaker]

I agree that if humans get a 15' long weapon, then it's fair to have a halfling with an 8' long weapon. But they don't, so they don't.

Square-cube law.

[hogarth]

I agree that if humans get a 15' long weapon, then it's fair to have a halfling with an 8' long weapon. But they don't, so they don't.

Square-cube law.

Huh? Are you saying that Swiss pikemen are defying the square-cube law?

[RandomCasualty2]

I forget the 4E rules for large creatures, is there anything actually stopping hill giants from being artful dodgers?

Well you can't even really make a hill giant rogue, they're purely monsters. Now of course, the DM can create whatever monster he wants, but by default the hill giant artful dodger doesn't exist.

And I really do like some racial standards for things. The old "This race is just a couple +2 bonuses" kind of bugs me. I really would prefer it if different races felt like they fought differently and had different advantages.

If race is just a random thing to get a +2 bonus on your character sheet, then they might as well just get rid of it entirely, or treat it like GURPS does, where any human can be as agile as any other elf and not care much about it.

Really, I'd like some kind of balance where every race is good at certain things. The elven archer may be the most accurate archer, but the human archer deals more damage, or something like that. The halfling might be a terrible reach fighter, but great in close quarters. Where the ogre is just the opposite.

[CatharzGodfoot]

Why isn't it enough to say:
Small - +2 Dex, -2 Str, move 20.
Medium - no adjustments
Large - -2 Dex, +2 Str, move 40.

Large creatures are slower and stronger than Medium creatures. Small creatures are faster and weaker than Medium creatures. Everybody gets a Size (+2, -2), and a Race (+2, +2).

Because in that setup, small creatures are slower and weaker and large creatures are faster and stronger.

But you could get the faster/weaker and slower/stronger split by swapping the above movement rates. At any rate, in 4e with those stat adjustments you've just precluded any small character from using a Str-focused class and made them incredibly good in Dex classes. Remember that in the D&D point buy, +2/-2 is not symmetric with +0/-0.

[Username17]

I agree that if humans get a 15' long weapon, then it's fair to have a halfling with an 8' long weapon. But they don't, so they don't.

Square-cube law.

Huh? Are you saying that Swiss pikemen are defying the square-cube law?

Nah. The cube square law acts in favor of halflings. But we're really dealing with the leverage equations. If a 6 foot man can use a 15 foot weapon a 10.6 foot weapon.

-Username17

[hogarth]

Square-cube law.

Huh? Are you saying that Swiss pikemen are defying the square-cube law?

Nah. The cube square law acts in favor of halflings. But we're really dealing with the leverage equations. If a 6 foot man can use a 15 foot weapon a 10.6 foot weapon.

-Username17

Right, but we're talking about D&D where a 6 foot man can't use a 15 foot weapon. So...I don't know how that translates into "a halfling should be able to use a reach weapon", square-cube law or no square-cube law.

[CatharzGodfoot]

Right, but we're talking about D&D where a 6 foot man can't use a 15 foot weapon. So...I don't know how that translates into "a halfling should be able to use a reach weapon", square-cube law or no square-cube law.

Actually, there's a 15' "exotic" pike, IIRC in Complete Warrior.

[hogarth]

Right, but we're talking about D&D where a 6 foot man can't use a 15 foot weapon. So...I don't know how that translates into "a halfling should be able to use a reach weapon", square-cube law or no square-cube law.

Actually, there's a 15' "exotic" pike, IIRC in Complete Warrior.

Well, if we're talking about 3.5, there's a 15' "exotic" "whip" in the "Player's" "Handbook".

[Crissa]

4e. We're supposed to be talking about 4e. I only mentioned WoW as pointing out that it doesn't really make any difference what size your character is to the weapon they're using.

-Crissa

[Caedrus]

I'm pretty sure Guild Wars is everything 4e wishes it was, but isn't.

Funny how I have been thinking (and saying!) this for a while... Glad someone agrees.

I wonder, would anyone here be interested in making a Guild Wars P&P game?

[CatharzGodfoot]

Right, but we're talking about D&D where a 6 foot man can't use a 15 foot weapon. So...I don't know how that translates into "a halfling should be able to use a reach weapon", square-cube law or no square-cube law.

Actually, there's a 15' "exotic" pike, IIRC in Complete Warrior.

Well, if we're talking about 3.5, there's a 15' "exotic" "whip" in the "Player's" "Handbook".

That's a nice "sarcastic" "response", but isn't the 3e "whip" a "ranged" "weapon"? IIRC, the "PBS"+"Rapid Shot" 'Indiana Jones' "Lasher" was fairly "popular" for a while.

[Crissa]

It's a ranged melee weapon that does not threaten. In other words, you can hit any spot as though you had reach, but don't get attacks of opportunity because you can't set the weapon against an attack.

-Crissa

[Koumei]

And using it provokes. And any amount of Armour or Natural Armour grants immunity to it.

Unless you get one of a few different Whip variants (barbed whips, whip-daggers etc. or even "DM, have you ever been to Russia and seen a knout? (sp?) They could kill people in one blow. Let me assure you, it damages normally.")

As for Guild Wars PnP, I'd love to, except for having never played it. I'll leave that to someone with experience in the field.

Incidentally, I saw someone running a WoW game using 4E, on IRC. I lol'd.

[Absentminded_Wizard]

Right, but we're talking about D&D where a 6 foot man can't use a 15 foot weapon. So...I don't know how that translates into "a halfling should be able to use a reach weapon", square-cube law or no square-cube law.

1. The whole 15'-pike thing started as a rebuttal to the argument that it's "unrealistic" for characters to wield weapons nearly three times as long as they are.

2. Assuming this is still a 4e discussion, does anybody expect WotC not to introduce a 15' polearm for humans at some point? I mean, isn't the point of Exception-Based Design that there are no fixed principles?

[Frantic]

>>Also, /tg/ is shit and will always be shit. Just like the rest of 4chan.

/tg/ is not nearly as bad as /v/ or the infamous /b/ itself. It's gone to shit in the last year due to copypasta and trollan though.