WFRP: I think I just crapped my pants with joy.

Crissa · Post by **Crissa** » Fri Jun 19, 2009 5:40 am

Oh, like Frank said, the setting had lots of the things guys seemed to like. Just the execution... Well.

The right DM can make mechanics as interesting as mud drying into something fun.

-Crissa

Kaelik · Post by **Kaelik** » Fri Jun 19, 2009 5:51 am

Doom314 wrote:Eh, consider reading more carefully, a few other things were brought up. It's really not worth it for me to argue this point, since whether something is good is a matter of opinion, as is whether larger, more detail, more artwork, and variety of outcomes has anything to do with being even remotely an improvement. Take it or leave it, or engage in more pointless attacks.

There is no need to read it more carefully. Those things that I did not miss but also did not mention include "Pretty pictures inside the cover" and "ability to point at more pretty pictures." Which is just more on the exact same theme of your post.

"It's the best module ever because it's very pretty and big and easy to run." Which still has exactly jack all to do with it's content.

Absentminded_Wizard · Post by **Absentminded_Wizard** » Fri Jun 19, 2009 9:06 am

I have to agree with Kaelik. Doom hasn't said anything at all about the adventure content of the modules. Everything is about the packaging or the descriptions of the setting. In a sourcebook, the maps and gazetteers would be useful, but an adventure rises or falls on the strength of the scenario.

MartinHarper · Post by **MartinHarper** » Fri Jun 19, 2009 9:33 am

angelfromanotherpin wrote:Reiner Ehrlich (honest), good-aligned lawyer.
Gotthard Goebbels, the alias of a secret chaos cultist. Not a pun, but even less subtle.

The rest are just a bilingual bonus. So the cuddly chick is called "Miss Cuddly". Whatever. These two would annoy me though, because, as you say, they give away things that aren't obvious.

Fuchs · Post by **Fuchs** » Fri Jun 19, 2009 9:43 am

MartinHarper wrote:
angelfromanotherpin wrote:Reiner Ehrlich (honest), good-aligned lawyer.
Gotthard Goebbels, the alias of a secret chaos cultist. Not a pun, but even less subtle.
The rest are just a bilingual bonus. So the cuddly chick is called "Miss Cuddly". Whatever. These two would annoy me though, because, as you say, they give away things that aren't obvious.

Unless of course the names could also serve as Red Herrings. Are there reasons for the players to trust that those names "ring true" so to speak, especially all of them? I'd expect most players to be a bit suspicious - or paranoid.

But the names would cause my (german speaking) group to treat the adventure as a joke anyway. Or or two such names would be acceptable, but not that many "descriptive names".

Absentminded_Wizard · Post by **Absentminded_Wizard** » Fri Jun 19, 2009 9:48 am

Are there reasons for the players to trust that those names "ring true" so to speak, especially all of them? I'd expect most players to be a bit suspicious - or paranoid.

I think the problem is that, after a whole bunch of people have matched their names, you can tell there's a pattern. If it was just one, not so much....

Kobajagrande · Post by **Kobajagrande** » Fri Jun 19, 2009 11:49 am

Fuchs wrote: But the names would cause my (german speaking) group to treat the adventure as a joke anyway. Or or two such names would be acceptable, but not that many "descriptive names".

From what I could see from my limited experience with WFRP modules, they are filled with easter eggs and pop culture references like that. In a campaign I'm playing right now, The Thousand Thrones, you spend 90% of one chapter hearing about The Masked Avenger, who goes around dressed in black, with a mask, killing Chaos Hobos and cultists and leaving his signature behind. Then you have a policeman named Brighalter, and I think at least one (non-related to the campaign) module which happens in a theater where "Box five" is kept empty during the stage. And oh, you spend one chapter cracking the Warhammer version of the DaVinci code.

Now, some might like it and some may not, whatever. Truthfully, I found them well spaced out, they show here and there occasionally, and do not shout in your face. And yes, I do speak German. You can only find it obstructing if you nitpick, and ignore the fact that German surnames sound exactly like that anyways.

As for the quality of the modules themselves, I'll speak about the one I know again, The Thousand Thrones, and keep in mind I'm playing in it, haven't finished it, so all I know about it is from what I've seen and from small talk with the GM. It certainly has potential to be a very enjoyable experience, but it requires players to get involved in it in some way and then build upon that.

Speaking of lethality, the campaign is deadly, but with little careful play, most of it can be avoided. Including occasional mistakes we did and all, we burned maybe 4 FP in total among us on cheating death or various unpleasant circumstances we might have had. For now we also got 2 FP each, so it has the potential to work out.

Finally, the campaign has its ups and downs. The best part so far must have been a chapter revolving around Villa Han, which featured pretty much just exploration, and very little action (including a three-way battle royale where you have to "take the money and run"). It has its low parts as well, especially one obvious filler chapter, and also suffers greatly from the problem of introduction of the main villain that's really apparent in most RPG storylines, which we call the "Who the hell are you? syndrome". And there was an apparent exhaustion among the players after following the storyline for a while, so we made a small sideplot somewhere halfway through. Still, it has been an enjoyable experience playing it so far, and I guess that means that its fulfilled its role.

PhoneLobster · Post by **PhoneLobster** » Fri Jun 19, 2009 11:57 am

You know, I've seen "Defense of crappy rules system through individual game experience" before.

I'll have to say "Defense of game system through opinion of canned adventure material" is a new variation on the theme for me.

Say what you like about the canned adventures (and I'll say what I like, which is bad) the core system however is still massively flawed and no canned adventure changes that one way or the other.

FatR · Post by **FatR** » Fri Jun 19, 2009 11:59 am

Nihlin wrote: Cool, let me try to home in a bit better on what would be a good fit for that. So, when you say subgame, are you looking for something that offers different tactical choices with different mechanical impact (for example, lying gives you a bonus to a certain roll, but is countered with fact-finding), or are you looking for something that helps guide you through that sort of social bargaining in an interesting way (oh, you failed your "let's talk reasonably" roll. Do you want to stop now, or escalate to "insults and threats," with the bigger risks that go with it?)?

I would like the former more.

Nihlin wrote:Edit: Have you seen the Secret Arts system in Weapons of the Gods? It's in the vein of Exalted 2E, but more elegant.

No. Thanks for the advice, I'll look at it.

Kobajagrande · Post by **Kobajagrande** » Fri Jun 19, 2009 12:00 pm

PhoneLobster wrote:You know, I've seen "Defense of crappy rules system through individual game experience" before.

I'll have to say "Defense of game system through opinion of canned adventure material" is a new variation on the theme for me.

Did you even read the same thing that I wrote or just made stuff up?
If you want to argue about the position I'm not even representing, go pest someone else.

Fuchs · Post by **Fuchs** » Fri Jun 19, 2009 1:06 pm

Kobajagrande wrote: Now, some might like it and some may not, whatever. Truthfully, I found them well spaced out, they show here and there occasionally, and do not shout in your face. And yes, I do speak German. You can only find it obstructing if you nitpick, and ignore the fact that German surnames sound exactly like that anyways.

German is my native language, and while there might be individual names that match those, one seldom encounters them in that density. For a native german speaker it just feels and sounds wrong to encounter so many "fitting names" at once. Of course, if there are triple or quadruple that number of normal names, that may be different, but my impression from the post was that the majority of the NPCs, or at least those one did interact most, was named like that.

PhoneLobster · Post by **PhoneLobster** » Fri Jun 19, 2009 1:18 pm

Kobajagrande wrote:Did you even read the same thing that I wrote

Aside from your post being quiet relevant just because it is your only other post ever doesn't make it the only other post on this thread.

Also on a tangent, just so you can feel like I discussed your special snowflake post...

FYI, if the masked avenger adventure really is a canned adventure that consists of 90% off screen wank about a guy doing things more dangerous and exciting than the PCs ever could, that is not a good canned adventure. Indeed, it's really bad.

angelfromanotherpin · Post by **angelfromanotherpin** » Fri Jun 19, 2009 1:57 pm

Fuchs wrote:German is my native language, and while there might be individual names that match those, one seldom encounters them in that density. For a native german speaker it just feels and sounds wrong to encounter so many "fitting names" at once. Of course, if there are triple or quadruple that number of normal names, that may be different, but my impression from the post was that the majority of the NPCs, or at least those one did interact most, was named like that.

It depends how you count. There are some people with Elvish or Italian names, and they might be immune to the syndrome, I've never checked. Of 21 NPCs deemed important enough to have cheat sheets in the back of the book, there are 10 I'm claiming as annoying in this regard. Some of them have actual names like 'von [insert location here],' or words my online dictionary isn't translating. Some have names that are thematic without being 'feed a personality trait into an English-German dictionary.' The Graf's champion's name translates as 'hammersmith,' for instance, and he doesn't preferentially use a hammer. I was actually pleasantly surprised to see that the lawyer who's been replaced by a doppelganger doesn't have a giveaway name.

But that was just a book I pulled off the shelf at random. I could pull another one and do it again, and I guarantee you there'd be more offenders. And while some of them would be annoying, like a minor outrider named 'Reiter,' some of them would be giveaways like Mr. Fiendish and Mr. Goebbels.

Doom · Post by **Doom** » Fri Jun 19, 2009 3:01 pm

Absentminded_Wizard wrote:I have to agree with Kaelik. Doom hasn't said anything at all about the adventure content of the modules. Everything is about the packaging or the descriptions of the setting. In a sourcebook, the maps and gazetteers would be useful, but an adventure rises or falls on the strength of the scenario.

The question I answered was "what do they look like?", and I can respect whether or not I gave anything in answer to that is a matter of opinion that you can certainly agree with. I saw no reason to even bother presenting much in the way of opinions past that point with folks rabid enough to attack someone for liking a 20 year old adventure that has many of the things that are now considered standard, like battle maps, artwork, extensive details, and open-endedness.

Heck, I'd to be accused of making spoilers by addressing the plot, what with all the screeching about "the module was totally ruined because the guy standing next to a demon has a sinister name" and all.

SunTzuWarmaster · Post by **SunTzuWarmaster** » Fri Jun 19, 2009 6:16 pm

Okay, so I had the day off today, and I read through this drivel of a thread.

thread pros: Talking about gaming systems that may be cool and worth investigating for Beer and Chips gaming. Specifically: 316 Carnage among the Stars and Kobolds Ate My Baby. Talk about good modules to play (in systems that are not WFRP).

thread cons: Talking about WFRP.

Seriously, I don't think ANYONE in the thread said "wow, this is a good system that is fun to play.". What we did have was someone that said it had good modules, and a flame war to determine who has good modules.

Where is Elennsar when you need him. This is his Magical Teaparty system where combat is crazy-lethal, and you are ordinary guys in the land of Dragons.

Also, anyone notice that diagram on page 3 has a Cataclyst better in every way (indeed, EVERY CATEGORY) than a Master Wizard. I mean, at the very least, that is the opposite of balanced.

mean_liar · Post by **mean_liar** » Fri Jun 19, 2009 6:58 pm

Eh. I still like the game. The name thing is an egregious turd but I don't speak German or use modules for most of my games.

As far as unbalanced is concerned, the numbers aren't that far off with respect to the system. Considering the quote Frank had put up, the comparison was an example that the words in the fanzine for the previous edition didn't match the mechanics of the current edition.

Unbalanced would be something much more offensive. Considering that those career paths are basically the only way to "level up" the opposition the fact that the ultimate bad guy careers are slightly better than the ultimate good guy careers isn't particularly offensive.

Akula · Post by **Akula** » Fri Jun 19, 2009 8:40 pm

How likely are you to survive to get one of the "ultimate good guy" careers? And yes, it is a problem that the forces of evil are just better than the forces of not-so-evil for no good reason.

Frantic · Post by **Frantic** » Fri Jun 19, 2009 10:31 pm

>>Did you even read the same thing that I wrote or just made stuff up?

You are assuming that PhoneLobster knows what reading is and how to do it. That is a big mistake.

Doom · Post by **Doom** » Fri Jun 19, 2009 10:57 pm

Akula wrote:How likely are you to survive to get one of the "ultimate good guy" careers? And yes, it is a problem that the forces of evil are just better than the forces of not-so-evil for no good reason.

It's sort of a premise for the game, as the world is doomed to be overrun by chaos eventually.

Still, I don't see Dungeons and Dragons characters ever having the stats of a god or even some of the more epic monsters, so I'm not sure what the issue is. In lots of games, the monsters/bad guys tend to be tougher individually than the characters individually.

Draco_Argentum · Post by **Draco_Argentum** » Sat Jun 20, 2009 1:07 am

Frantic wrote:You are assuming that PhoneLobster knows what reading is and how to do it. That is a big mistake.

At least when PL decides to post a bunch of insults he actually engages with the thread topic to do it.

Akula · Post by **Akula** » Sat Jun 20, 2009 5:43 am

^ Useless post #2.

Yeah, I got that. Grim. Dark. Stupid. Pointless. But why should the arbitrary bad guys who you will never be be better than the arbitrary good guys you will never be? This isn't the players being worse than a balor individually, this is an angel and a devil sharing the same CR but the devil just having better abilities.

And again. How. Likely. Are. You. To. Be. A. "Ultimate. Good. Guy." At. The. End. Of. The. Campaign?

Josh_Kablack · Post by **Josh_Kablack** » Sat Jun 20, 2009 6:02 am

thread pros: Talking about gaming systems that may be cool and worth investigating for Beer and Chips gaming. Specifically: 316 Carnage among the Stars and Kobolds Ate My Baby. Talk about good modules to play (in systems that are not WFRP).

While I have limited direct experience with it Kobolds Ate my Baby is awesomesauce.

It's a humourous parody of an RPG, that manages to also be a fully-playable RPG. You play a band of kobolds infiltrating a human settlement and trying to steal a meal for the feast of King Torg ALL HAIL KING TORG! Many of you will die to the various hazards in the town (adventurers, chickens, dogs, furniture, etc) but character generation is pretty much "make up a name, roll on the special traits chart" so you are expected to resume play with your new character something like 3 turns after your last one died.

Doom · Post by **Doom** » Sat Jun 20, 2009 6:06 am

Well, it rather depends on what kind of campaign is being run....how likely are you to make level 30 in your D&D campaign? Whatever odds you give probably won't apply to the next table.

However, in my personal experience, deeply unlikely. The game really breaks at 'high' levels. I'm not sure using the word 'level' is fair, though as WFRP for the most part doesn't use a level system. The highest possible mage is level 4 (note: the magic system has changed dramatically over the years, and the rules are very different now), and the highest ever made in any campaign I had was level 2. Theoretically, level 3 was quite possible if a player totally dedicated himself...but that's just at my table, I'm not speaking for anyone else, not that I ever heard of maximum level wizards anywhere but in WFB.

In any event, super high power good guys appeared in much the way as super high power bad guys: GM fiat and/or plot device. There's no CR in this game, so saying the uber good guys aren't as strong as the uber bad guys is pretty meaningless...since both only appear on whims, there's nothing to prevent 1.3 super good guys appearing for every ONE bad guy, if the odd and design contraindicated goal of 'balance' is desired at some point.

PhoneLobster · Post by **PhoneLobster** » Sat Jun 20, 2009 6:11 am

Draco_Argentum wrote:At least when PL decides to post a bunch of insults he actually engages with the thread topic to do it.

I may be a big old meanie but I endeavor to be relevant and informative at all times.

Which makes me mildly embarrassed to be making a post like this but I like a tiny bit of vindication as much as the next guy.

Kobajagrande · Post by **Kobajagrande** » Sat Jun 20, 2009 11:30 am

Akula wrote:And again. How. Likely. Are. You. To. Be. A. "Ultimate. Good. Guy." At. The. End. Of. The. Campaign?

Generally, chances are you'll be going for a Things To Do In Denver When You're Dead kind of ending.