Magic: The Gathering / Yu-Gi-Oh!

Lago PARANOIA · Post by **Lago PARANOIA** » Mon Jun 22, 2009 7:24 pm

So I was thinking about getting the M:tG game for the X360.

A brief history: I love YGO. I enjoy the 'so bad it's great' first and second anime and its grimdark spinoff YGO 5D's. But what I really like are the card games. Not so much the physical game you play with real cards, but the video games.

I've heard that M:tG is an even better card game so I've flirted with trying to play it, but two things have been stopping me. One is that there isn't (or I haven't found until recently) a good videro jame for it. But the biggest one is... it looks really damn complicated. I was able to be eased into Yu-Gi-Oh! with its charmingly retarded anime, but alas there's nothing like that for M:tG.

So what should I know about this game before I spend BIG CASH trying to get into it?

Bill Bisco: Isometric Imp · Mon Jun 22, 2009 8:00 pm

Lago,

I'm not sure what you mean by "what's there to know." The big difference in Magic is that to play creatures you have to pay mana. You have land cards in your hand which you can put 1 down per turn. You tap the amount of mana that a creature costs, and then the turn after the creature is summoned, you tap that creature to attack with it.

Every turn all tapped cards (creatures, lands, etc.) become untapped so that you can use it again. The rules might seem a bit overwhelming at first, but they're really not that complicated. If you can play 3rd edition you can certainly play M:TG, and M:TG is far simpler.

Peace,
Bill

Edit: if you're really worried about not liking the game, you can download Magic Workstation program, and you can download the card sets and play Magic the Gathering Online for free.

It'll be slightly annoying to set up Magic Workstation, but it's certainly worth it if you're concerned about wasting your money on an XBox game.

Lago PARANOIA · Post by **Lago PARANOIA** » Mon Jun 22, 2009 8:08 pm

Well...

How many broken combos are there? How many 'viable' top-tier decks are there? How many cards to I have to snag before I can have a decent array of decks? Is the game really swingy or is it a 'death spiral' where players with advantages continue to accrue them?

Things like that.

koz · Post by **koz** » Mon Jun 22, 2009 8:24 pm

Lago PARANOIA wrote:Well...

How many broken combos are there? How many 'viable' top-tier decks are there? How many cards to I have to snag before I can have a decent array of decks? Is the game really swingy or is it a 'death spiral' where players with advantages continue to accrue them?

Things like that.

That depends on what cardpool you're playing with. Additionally, what do you define as 'broken'? T1 Stax can be called broken, as can old T2 Solar Flare, depending on who you ask. Same for the viable top-tier, although that position is usually juggled between about 3-4 decks per format, unless something really weird is going on.

As for swinginess, there's a lot of possibility. There are times when single errors cost you the game, but this is only true with extremely high-powered decks designed to win very rapidly, before anyone else comes online. Generally, you have a lot of opportunity to rescue yourself, provided you know why you messed up and how to correct it.

In terms of a 'decent array of decks', if you're a casual player, you don't need that many - there are quite a few solid things you wanna have, but not that many that you NEED to have. If you wanna play in more competitive settings, it depends on the format.

Bill Bisco: Isometric Imp · Mon Jun 22, 2009 8:24 pm

Well, it depends which type of Magic the Gathering Game you play.

The official types are Type 1, 1.5, Legacy, and Vintage.

Type 1 Consists of several recent sets.

Type 1.5 is all the sets in the last 7 years

Legacy is all cards, except all the restricted cards in Vintage are Banned Here

Vintage is all cards, except ante cards are banned, and some very powerful cards are restricted (only 1 per deck).

So the top tier deck will depend on which format you're playing in. Casual games do whatever.

There are certainly some good combos, I don't play anymore so you should probably look online. The game is really swingy in Vintage and Legacy. In Standard and Extended it's less so.

You'll need a lot of cards to get a decent array of decks. Hopefully you wouldn't have to buy these if you're playing a video game. There are certainly some top tier decks, again I'd suggest you ask on Wizards forums.

Peace,
Bill

Thymos · Post by **Thymos** » Mon Jun 22, 2009 9:42 pm

My experience with Yi Gi Oh was ages ago, and it was the experience that the game wasn't even remotely balanced.

M:TG however is really well balanced. There are a few crap cards (it seems like there used to be more of them, but I haven't played the game in oh, 6 years).

Type 1 sounds like it is fairly balanced. They cut out the broken loops and stuff by only including the recent stuff.

Type 2 (everything goes) has so many broken stuff that casual and pro play are different. If you and your friends agree not to break out the power 9 or stasis, or other broken stuff then you have a huge amount of different viable decks. If you do break that specifically mentioned stuff out, most decks will be crushed.

Local card shops usually hold draft tournaments as well. This is where everyone pays a fee, then they open card packs and pass them around the table everyone picking a card. The decks are only 40 cards instead of the usual 60, but in this format you can't bring any overpowered cards with you. It's different.

Judging__Eagle · Post by **Judging__Eagle** » Mon Jun 22, 2009 11:38 pm

The bulk of the "rules" for most cards are usually on the cards themselves.

But the game breaks down like this:

Start Turn
Draw Phase
Untap Phase
Upkeep
Pre-Combat Play Phase
Combat
Post-Combat Play Phase
Discard phase
End Turn

First, you draw a card, if it's the 1st round, they 1st player cannot draw a card, the next player will be able to in their round however. This is meant to balance out the initiative advantage that going first can have.

A lot of the time, most of those phases you completely glossed over, unless a card specifically asks to be dealt with, such as a card that says "In your upkeep phase ...". Usually the upkeep phase is ignored. Sometimes the 'second' play phase is also skipped, and the 'discard' phase is often forgotten.

Untap phase is just that, any cards that were turned/flipped/marked/whatever are now 'usable'.

Upkeep is usually skipped, unless a card in play asks to be dealt with.

The 'play' phases are when you can cast spells, summon creatures and the like.

The combat phase is when you attack, you choose who you attack with, the enemy chooses who they block with (if they can block at all). You can cast certain spells in the combat phase, things that are classes as "instant" and "interrupt" can be cast in combat, even if it's not the player whose turn it is.

"interrupts" can be cast whenever you feel like.

Then after combat, you can cast more spells, summon more monsters, etc.

In the discard phase, you drop cards into your graveyard in any order you like, until you have 7 cards or less in your hand. There are exceptions to this 7 card limitation, but w/e.

Then you end your turn.

Lands can be played once per round, and in your 'play' phases.

Creatures can only be summoned in a 'play' phase, and cannot be used to attack until your next turn. They can be used to block between when they are summoned, and when your next round starts.

M:tG was phenominaly easier to learn compared to the millions hoops that the yu-gi-o (or w/e it's spelled) was for me.

The idea of multiple play areas, limitations that were never explained clearly, and cards whose functions aren't immediately obvious were other stumbling blocks. Having numbers in the.... "thousands" was a retarded concept, I should have to do math to do a game with numbers in it. I shouldn't have to pull out a scrap of paper and do arithmetic to play a game.

The basics of magic are pretty easy to pick up, the advanced concepts, and building effective decks are a bit more challenging. I think that's what bothered me about yu-gi-oh. It had far too many hoops at the start, and for a game that came out more recently, I felt that it should be better designed than older games.

I found that the best way to build a deck in magic is to build the whole deck around one specific card. This helps creat the leanest, and most effective, decks that I can get.

Also, the anime sucked balls. As soon as the "heart of the cards" bullshit was mentioned, the series lost me completely. I've played or watched played many CCG games. What you get is a result of a combination of luck, and preparation. On the other hand, anytime an anime goes into "mystical bullshit" territory, it loses me. Yu-gi-oh lost me very early.

Bill Bisco: Isometric Imp · Tue Jun 23, 2009 12:09 am

A funny aspect of Yu-Gi-Oh cartoon was that in the battles, people cheated and acted all scared when people declared their own made up moves. It makes me think of a time when my friend drew a picture of a Stick Figure on a Piece of Paper and told a group of Yu-Gi-Oh players that he had found the ultimate card! with all the drama and substance of the TV show.

The Yu-Gi-Oh abridged series is amusing.

Ravengm · Post by **Ravengm** » Tue Jun 23, 2009 2:26 am

Eagle, note that interrupts don't exist anymore.

Also, Type 2 is Standard (the last few sets) and Type 1 is Legacy (mostly everything).

The most popular formats are Standard, Draft, and Extended. Past that, you start going into crazy-town where decks consistently win on turn 2 or 3.

If you're new, Standard is a good environment to start in, since it has a relatively small card pool and you don't have to make quick decisions about what cards to include. If you can find a local card shop, there's an event called Friday Night Magic that is probably the most relaxed tournament format you can find. You play a few rounds, and the winner gets a special promotional card.

EDIT: I should also note that there are some other wacky formats like Two-Headed Giant (2v2 play) or Elder Dragon Highlander (100 cards in a deck, single copies only).

Also, the R&D team is trying to cut back on deck costs so that new players actually have a chance of building top-tier decks without spending hundreds of dollars. Currently, at least in most Standard decks, the most expensive part is the land. The next couple sets have reduced the amount of rare, powerful lands and introduced more common and more cost-effective ways of producing mana. Which is nice for new players, but unfortunate for old hats that have been using pain lands for 10 years.

The best advice I can give you is to buy one of the $12 or whatever starter packs and toy with the cards.

koz · Post by **koz** » Tue Jun 23, 2009 3:23 am

Actually, Legacy is called Type 1.5. Type 1's 'proper' name is Vintage.

cthulhu · Post by **cthulhu** » Tue Jun 23, 2009 4:41 am

Type 1 is easily the most fun, and it's actually reaosnably balanced in the same way that Mavel vs Capcom 2 is balanced. There are 6 or so options that are completely broken, so you have a broke fest at each other until someone counters the other guys broken counters and abuses his tactic.

However T1 is a total bitch - the decks are so complex and you have such great access via tutors that knowing the difference between a good play and the best play is critical.

T2 is a bit 'easier' because the decks are less complex due to less draw, counter and tutor options. However the average level of player skill is much higher.

Jacob_Orlove · Post by **Jacob_Orlove** » Tue Jun 23, 2009 6:53 am

Magic isn't all that tough to learn. They're actually introducing a second wave of radical simplifications to make the game more intuitive (it's been a good 10 years since the last time they did that), so now more (all?) of the corner case rules will just work the way you'd expect them to.

I wouldn't worry about the nuances of constructed formats at all--you should be able to play more casual pickup games just for fun, those are a good way to learn what works and what doesn't. Playing a programmed version will help a lot, as you won't be able to accidentally break the rules.

Fundamentally, it's a game of resource management, but there's enough different resources (cards, life points, mana, creatures, etc), that someone can pull ahead in one area without necessarily creating a slippery slope. In fact, the sacrifices you have to make in order to gain an edge can backfire if you're not careful.

As a new player, though, you'll probably lose a fair number of games. That's good, it means your opponents are better than you and you can learn from them. There's nothing worse than winning a lot as a new player, it just means your opponents are terrible and you haven't learned anything.

Murtak · Post by **Murtak** » Tue Jun 23, 2009 8:53 am

Back when I played Magic was horrendously expensive if you actually wanted to be able to build a couple tournament-worthy decks. On the bright side Magic is not really complicated - at least as far as the rules are concerned. If you are interested in how hard it is to find the correct play in a given situation you will have to ask someone who is actually currently playing the game.

I currently play L5R with some friends (using Diamond rules and card pool though) and it is a much nicer game to get started with in terms of how many rares you need (zero for most deck types) but it will probably be harder to find people to play with. And if Magic's seeming complexity scares you, you will probably scream in terror at the sight of L5R's multi-deck, multi-timing, some-cards-aren't-cards, some-abilities-aren't-actions setup.

Still, I can't recommend it enough - if you can find a group of regulars a single starter deck and a couple of boosters will probably get you a deck that won't curl over and die, even if hit with a tournament deck, and double that will give you a tournament-worthy deck of your own, if you are willing to restrict yourself to the less rare-intensive deck types.

Edit: I am pretty sure there are programs to let you play online for both Magic and L5R, but if you want to play against the computer L5R is out and the single Magic computer game I vaguely remember was pretty horrible. Heck, even a good version would probably get it's ass kicked by any competent player. Magic is orders of magnitude harder to calculate than chess and L5R is worse.

Kobajagrande · Post by **Kobajagrande** » Tue Jun 23, 2009 9:53 am

Yu-Gi-Oh is a game for boys; Magic, for men; but he who aspires to be a hero must play SWCCG.

No, seriously. The only card game to my knowledge that, despite being out-of-print for almost 8 years is still going strong with new sets created and active tournament community, large player base and sufficient online version of the game.

Bill Bisco: Isometric Imp · Tue Jun 23, 2009 11:18 am

SWCCG is a fun game. But the game is ridiculously complicated full of obscure written rules, and stubborn game designers who refuse to ban any card. Once you play for a little bit, you realize that there are so many decktypes that are unplayable simply because of power creep.

Really, it's a case study of how not to design a game.

Judging__Eagle · Post by **Judging__Eagle** » Tue Jun 23, 2009 11:42 am

Kobajagrande,

I played Magic back when I was in.... grade 7. That's like... 12.

Luls, yeah, in one respect Magic was a pretty serious game, you play Magic b/c you want to play magic. Not because something else influenced you. Me and my brother played quite a lot when we were younger. It's good to have a playing opponent who lives in the same house as yourself.

Kobajagrande · Post by **Kobajagrande** » Tue Jun 23, 2009 12:11 pm

Judging__Eagle wrote:I played Magic back when I was in.... grade 7. That's like... 12.

It was a reference to classical Samuel Johnson quote.

And Bill, I do agree SWCCG is a mess of rules and has a very steep learning curve. However, I played that game for over a decade, so I have a good grasp of the logic behind the game which makes it easy to understand all the interactions (and as a consequence, more easily understand the new interactions) that happen during the game. And I don't say it takes years to get there; but it does take some time and practice, that is true.

As for some decks being playable and some not, that is the case in any card game. What is important is that the meta is healthy, that means that there is no one deck that is so dominant that every other deck is based on it, and that it is not stale, that is, that new decks appear, and old lose their appeal. And in casual play, as usual, many more deck choices are open to players.

Bill Bisco: Isometric Imp · Tue Jun 23, 2009 3:29 pm

I actually don't mind the learning curve as much as I mind the obtruse and hidden rules which cards depend on that aren't stated anywhere except the rulebook. For Instance Dengar in Punishing One states that it adds 1 to Total Battle Destiny for Each Opponent Starship Present. Apparently though, you have to draw a battle destiny for this to work. Thus Null+ 2(2 starships) = Null wheareas intuitively it should be 0 + 2 (2 Starships) =2.

Or for Instance Artillery Weapons (ex. Atgar Laser Cannon) apparently have to be powered to be used, yet these cards do not say anywhere on them that they require power. A simple, requires power text would be better than forcing people to look up a rule book. And even if you disagree with me there, then shouldn't the cards which provide power explicitly state that they provide power?

Yet http://www.starwarsccg.org/wiki/index.p ... or_(Light)

does not say that it powers artillery weapons. So to know that, one has to consult the rulebook. Same with the Power Droid card.

The worst thing though is the uncompetitveness of different stuff. Sure there's *some variety*, but the main Dark Side Objectives, Hunt Down and Bring Him Before Me are still overwhelmingly the most useful. Han Solo, Chewie, et al. used to be useful decks. Scum decks used to be useful decks (even for the Dark Side). However, they're not that great anymore.

Anyway, Decipher had actually planned on making Star Wars CCG 2nd edition, but they lost the license before that point. The Player's Committee has been piling on several years of junk on the game when it should have been revamped long ago.

I have more things to say about it, but I'm outta energy.

angelfromanotherpin · Post by **angelfromanotherpin** » Tue Jun 23, 2009 8:25 pm

SWCCG really does suffer from a lot of artifacts of being in the first wave of CCGs, before designers had really figured out how much text should go where and how many special cases you could get away with. I would love to see a cleaned up second edition of it. My guess is that the bomb that was WARS was probably a much cleaner take on the rules, but nobody gave a crap about WARS, so I never got to find out.

Bill Bisco: Isometric Imp · Tue Jun 23, 2009 9:26 pm

I would like to see a cleaned up 2nd edition of SWCCG as well. I suspect that the Player's Committee is going in the opposite direction though.

As far as WARS goes, I never tried it. Perhaps it's a good lesson in understanding the power of a brand name. Some people play SWCCG mainly because they like Star Wars.

Kobajagrande · Post by **Kobajagrande** » Tue Jun 23, 2009 9:37 pm

Bill,

the Dengar thing is exactly the thing I'm talking about with some game logic you learn to accept in time. The answer is simple - you must first have battle destiny to add to it. If you add a battle destiny, you have battle destiny, so you cannot use "May draw one battle destiny if unable to do otherwise" gametext. Etc etc.

Artillery Weapons (better example really is the Creatures, since Creatures are actually used on an occasion) is a weakness of the game design, I agree. At least with such cards it is clearly marked they are a different type so you do not confuse them with other cards.

As for the meta stuff, well, in competitive play, BHBM is not strong, and was never really top tier. It was useful in times when Profit was strong because it was a good matchup. On the other hand, Huntdown, like TRM, is a staple deck. Main thing is because a) They are good. Not overpowered, just good; and b) this is Star Wars. It is about Luke and Vader and stuff. Sure the big guys in the movies will be most versatile and decks centering on them will always be useful.

And on the other hand, ok, Hand & Chewie are not that useful anymore (outside WYS and WYS(v) that is), but that's how the game goes. Now you have DBO, ROPS, CCT, Mystril (another DS scum deck), Senate, Wookies, Combat, Walkers, some guys even successfully played DSII deck, HD(v) deck which is still new and people are still fiddling with... That's the game right now. Next year, things might be different. Hell, with a new set or two, things might change radically. That's meta.

As for SWCCG2, well... I remember what Reflections Gold were supposed to be. That and, well, Decipher's brilliant idea to have different card backs for cards which center on different movies does not give me faith in their design abilities. Not to speak anything of their current company power. Currently, the game is in good hands, it is well, and things are working out ok.

angelfromanotherpin · Tue Jun 23, 2009 10:06 pm

Kobajagrande wrote:As for SWCCG2, well... I remember what Reflections Gold were supposed to be. That and, well, Decipher's brilliant idea to have different card backs for cards which center on different movies does not give me faith in their design abilities.

I don't know if it was the same design team, but Decipher also put out the LOTR CCG, and for most of its run that game was the overall best-designed and best-managed card game I have ever seen.

Bill Bisco: Isometric Imp · Tue Jun 23, 2009 10:14 pm

Adding new viable decktypes is fine and good. Elminating decktypes from being viable at all is bad.

Yes, I understand that part about Battle Destiny. My point was that the mechanic is counter-intuitive which is bad. This is but one example of many cards in the game which are counter-intuitive.

When you have a thread called The Top 20 cards that shouldn't have been made and it goes on for 180 pages, something is terribly wrong with the game system!

I mean, when you have a forum called competitive balance with that many threads that are that long. It should be obvious that something is very wrong!

If you have a forum called Rules Questions and you see that many threads of people not understanding all these obtruse card interactions. It should be obvious that something is very wrong!

Now don't get me wrong, I like SWCCG, and I might download Holotable again some time, but the game has degenerated to the degree that I usually don't have much fun in a serious game.

Murtak · Post by **Murtak** » Wed Jun 24, 2009 9:00 am

I vaguely remember the SW CCG having lots of silver bullets (cards that pretty much say "kill popular card x") and I think that turned me off from ever actually trying the game.

Kobajagrande · Post by **Kobajagrande** » Wed Jun 24, 2009 9:32 am

Bill Bisco: Isometric Imp wrote:Adding new viable decktypes is fine and good. Elminating decktypes from being viable at all is bad.

So don't play Card Games because that's pretty much what happens in every single one, whether because of evolving meta or rotation or whatever.

Bill Bisco: Isometric Imp wrote:Yes, I understand that part about Battle Destiny. My point was that the mechanic is counter-intuitive which is bad. This is but one example of many cards in the game which are counter-intuitive.

And my point is there is consistent logic behind it. I think I screwed myself once with Dengar in Ship when I was a new player. Never again.

Bill Bisco: Isometric Imp wrote:When you have a thread called The Top 20 cards that shouldn't have been made and it goes on for 180 pages, something is terribly wrong with the game system!

Now you begin to take stuff out of context. And I know you're not making a mistake just by throwing a quick glance at forums because now I remember, you used to frequent them. You should know that that "list" is made by one guy, who is quite obviously prolonging it (he started in Feb damn it), it features a bunch of people just making fun of the whole stuff, it has a bunch of dissenting voices for just about any card on it, and honestly, most of the card picks are either very weird or are a usual BH move of getting support to further his own agenda. THE LIST HAS MONNOK AS CARD #3 FFS!!!

So yeah, let's not use it as an argument for anything except that PC forums are damn fun.

Bill Bisco: Isometric Imp wrote:I mean, when you have a forum called competitive balance with that many threads that are that long. It should be obvious that something is very wrong!

99% of the threads on the competitive balance forum are just whining, pure and simple. You can just feel "I got blown out by this card, and I'm not much of a player, but I don't want to improve, doing that will mean admitting I'm not a good player, so I'll just whine and ask for the card that blew me to be banned BECAUSE I HATE IT SO MUCH NOW AND ITS THE WORST CARD EVER!!!!" vibe from those posts. Among them, you will find such gems as Panic, No Escape, Dark Maneuvers & Tallon Roll, BATTLE ORDER!!!!, Hidden Weapons, Fallen Jedi, and who knows what other treasure have I missed.

Besides, most of the discussions there is about how those cards should be played against.

Bill Bisco: Isometric Imp wrote:If you have a forum called Rules Questions and you see that many threads of people not understanding all these obtruse card interactions. It should be obvious that something is very wrong!

And if you ask those same people, 99% of them will say that's the reason why they love SWCCG. Why its still played, and why it has survived although the game has been out of print for more than 50% of its run. You know that. SWCCG is a game that appeals to people who like to think a lot, solve problems and figure things out.

And besides, you'll never see one of the top players ask a question there unless they want a confirmation on something obscure that might get an argument from people they play against.

Bill Bisco: Isometric Imp wrote:Now don't get me wrong, I like SWCCG, and I might download Holotable again some time, but the game has degenerated to the degree that I usually don't have much fun in a serious game.

If you ever do that, give me a call to set up a game.

You know, my two favorite decks are TDIGWATT (mains, not speed variation) and WYS with Kessel Run. These decks are tier 2 at best right now, and have been so for quite some time. These two decks are what I think the game should be all about. Even though I don't get my way, I'm honest, and say game is good, playable, and way better than... Its certainly better game than it was since 2001, way better than in 2005, and you could make up a pretty convincing argument that it in some ways it is better than it was in Y2K.