Will 5e Suck Harder than 4e?

Avoraciopoctules · Post by **Avoraciopoctules** » Mon Jan 30, 2012 10:07 pm

I would totally buy this module if it were for sale. Seeing how my current group reacts would be interesting.

EDIT: the problem would be getting the group engaged. I'm already going to run something where the PCs likely end up landed nobles in Orc Land, perhaps they could get tapped as emissaries to Dwarf Land later. That would put them in a position where people would actually listen to them.

Lago PARANOIA · Post by **Lago PARANOIA** » Mon Jan 30, 2012 10:19 pm

Honestly, what I would really want is for the module to take the side of the Hobgoblins since I find it honestly pretty improbable for a culture as gold-obsessed and insular as dwarves to do anything but scream and cry like Glenn Beck at the hint of having foreign debt and/or capital outflows, but, you know, hobgoblins don't look like us and are thus not sympathetic.

fectin · Post by **fectin** » Tue Jan 31, 2012 12:56 am

Err, there are a couple of problems that keep it from even being an adventure:

A store in a DnD campaign has three items, all priced insanely high. You are a player in this campaign. Which is your reaction?
- "This is economically infeasible! How can this store continue to operate? we'd better look into it more."
- "Fucking asshole DM."

Having accepted that your DM has put in the effort to design a lavishly detailed non-functioning economy, what is your reaction?
- "Wow, I should see what innovative thing I can do to fix this obviously sandboxey setting," or
- "Choo-choo! All aboard the plot train!"

Edit: also, having accepted that you have a realistic, sandbox system of a broken-down economy, what does your murder-hobo do?
- "Rebuild society under it's previous inept ruler, spending oodles of character time for the satisfaction of a job well done", or
- "Take over", or
- "Societal breakdown means no guards. It's lootin' time!"

tussock · Post by **tussock** » Tue Jan 31, 2012 1:01 am

Lago and Frank have me thinking I should touch on more details when PCs flood the local market with recovered gold.

Those three things on the shelf? The PCs buy them all, with gold to spare. So the shopkeeper gets his shop done up, and pays to patch the road. The road crew, painters, and carpenters are at the pub every night. The nice young waitress has a job again. There's more families at the market, so more boats are heading out to fish, so the harbour is looking for workers. Prices jump all over the place as supply rushes to meet the flash of demand.

Other merchants start trying to tempt the PCs into going back adventuring, or could they maybe borrow some coin, and then wages start rocketing up and young men start arriving from the countryside, and the guilds all want control and prices fixed and the royal command on bread weight is shamefully ignored this week ... and then the tax men come and gather up all the money to help the king's austerity budget and that all ends again.

fectin · Post by **fectin** » Tue Jan 31, 2012 1:20 am

But that will eventually lead you back to an Austrian theory with expectations of stability, because after the first time that happens, the shopkeeper is in a hyperinflation mindset (must spend now, before the taxmen come!) or a hoard mindset (what if I reorder stock, and then the taxmen show up and tank the economy? Then things will be terrible!).

Avoraciopoctules · Post by **Avoraciopoctules** » Tue Jan 31, 2012 1:33 am

fectin wrote:

Err, there are a couple of problems that keep it from even being an adventure:

A store in a DnD campaign has three items, all priced insanely high. You are a player in this campaign. Which is your reaction?
- "This is economically infeasible! How can this store continue to operate? we'd better look into it more."
- "Fucking asshole DM."

Having accepted that your DM has put in the effort to design a lavishly detailed non-functioning economy, what is your reaction?
- "Wow, I should see what innovative thing I can do to fix this obviously sandboxey setting," or
- "Choo-choo! All aboard the plot train!"

Edit: also, having accepted that you have a realistic, sandbox system of a broken-down economy, what does your murder-hobo do?
- "Rebuild society under it's previous inept ruler, spending oodles of character time for the satisfaction of a job well done", or
- "Take over", or
- "Societal breakdown means no guards. It's lootin' time!"

Do you think that this can be addressed by having the PCs on a mission that hooks into getting the Undermountain Kingdom functional again?

Here's the situation I'm thinking of. You are a posse of heroes who got recruited by Jarl Uluth of Uluthheim (A more civilized state within greater Orc Land) to deal with a persistent raiding warband that butchered villagers and salted fields in addition to just stealing. You helped rout them when they next attacked, then tracked them to their stronghold and were instrumental in their defeat. This impressed Uluth so much that he declared you Thanes, and gave you the land formerly held by the raiders (along with some workers and soldiers to serve as Logistics and Dragons starter material).

But there is a complication. It turns out the leader of the jerky warband was a magically disguised elf. You may have also discovered the psychic body-snatching crab monster that replaced the elf's brain. The leader was instrumental in forming the warband and driving it to such atrocities. This seems evidence of some kind of conspiracy. For now, Uluthheim's situation has stabilized, but dire threats loom on the horizon. Diviners are seeing bad omens. Uluthheim could really use allies.

The PCs are tapped again by Uluth. He wants them to go to nearby states and form alliances if possible. The best current prospect is the Kingdom Under the Mountain, where relations have been neutral, but he actually has some existing contacts from commissions of quality arms and armor for elite soldiers. Dwarf Land would be really nice friends, if that could be managed, but they have a history that might lead to unfavorable reception of orc diplomats, and Uluthheim has few enough sufficiently talented diplomats that any they diverted to this would be sorely missed.

So the PCs go to Dwarf Land. They are nobles from a state that is recognized, but currently little-known. They could probably get audience with someone important, though that would probably involve a wait. And they begin to notice that Dwarf Land seems to have some pretty significant problems that weren't mentioned in the briefing.

fectin · Post by **fectin** » Tue Jan 31, 2012 2:10 am

That could really work. The only issue I see is making sure that the PCs are loyal enough to Uluth to not act like murder-hobos, but that setup makes it likely; just make sure they're really invested in their thanedom.

Also, it would derail that plot if they decide to take over the dwarf kingdom and fix it by force of personality, but I don't really see that as a problem.

This is actually a really, really good setup.

It leads me to a new question though: how do you make a fantasy economy that's non-controversial enough that it doesn't steal focus? (making a new thread for that now)

OgreBattle · Post by **OgreBattle** » Tue Jan 31, 2012 2:36 am

tussock wrote:Lago and Frank have me thinking I should touch on more details when PCs flood the local market with recovered gold.

Those three things on the shelf? The PCs buy them all, with gold to spare. So the shopkeeper gets his shop done up, and pays to patch the road. The road crew, painters, and carpenters are at the pub every night. The nice young waitress has a job again. There's more families at the market, so more boats are heading out to fish, so the harbour is looking for workers. Prices jump all over the place as supply rushes to meet the flash of demand.

Having the town improve and the lives of the folk get better every time you head back from the dungeon would be a pleasant way to make the players feel like they're making a difference.

One of my favorite 32bit games was like that, Azure Dreams. You go into the monster tower and come back to improve the town you grew up in. And get wives.

ishy · Post by **ishy** » Tue Jan 31, 2012 2:52 pm

Somehow all this talk about shopkeepers only having 3 items for sales for insane prices reminds me of shopkeepers in Venice:

And thats the ENTIRE magic item buying/selling economy in town. A "smooth" transition between "Fuck me, I can't buy it" and "Fuck you, I won't buy it".

http://tgdmb.com/viewtopic.php?t=51605

Though I am thinking about running this (the one discussed in this thread, not the pl one) game now.

tzor · Post by **tzor** » Tue Jan 31, 2012 4:52 pm

fectin wrote:A store in a DnD campaign has three items, all priced insanely high. You are a player in this campaign. Which is your reaction?

Actually, my reaction is "what are the items and why do I even care?"

Off the top of my head I can think of a plethora of reasons why this situation might exist. Just because the shopkeep has items for sale doesn't mean he actually wants to sell the items. He might be looking for a sucker (people used to put of their homes in Key West for insanely high prices in the hopes a tourist would be smitten with the island and buy; should they get lucky they would sell their home, buy a home a few islands away and thank their fortune for the proifit), or he might not really want to sell the items at all, he could be using the store as a front for something else.

Back to Key West. There was a chain store called Maimi Sub. You could get the typical fast food stuff, drinks and fries (and even gyros). Their drink menu had Don Perringon for $100. Who the hell would ever want that with their gyro? It doesn't matter, they had it because they could!

The original 1E AD&D design philosophy (I forget which page had this reference) was that of a gold rush town. The economy was, by definition, so warped by the "treasure" that was being found that all the prices no longer made sense. Adventuring stuff was way out of proportion to regular stuff because there was always a demand at the insane price.

Ice9 · Post by **Ice9** » Wed Feb 01, 2012 9:07 pm

Since we're making predictions here, I've got one. The way to totally break 5E will be hirelings. Looking at what they've released, I see that modifiers will be very small - +1 for race/class, +2 for skill checks, no or reduced bonus from level, the whole "an orc will remain relevant" thing. So the way to get any skill based task done is simply to have a dozen or two minions all give it a try. This may even work in combat, depending on whether the damage curve is similarly flat.

There's also a distinct possibility that they try to handle this through clumsy and artificial limitations.

CapnTthePirateG · Post by **CapnTthePirateG** » Thu Feb 02, 2012 2:43 am

My personal prediction is that trading out all your damage for "I win" effects( charm person) and utility effects which are useful in combat (wall of stone) is going to break the shit out of 5e, disrupt the idiotic little 3 pillars system, and only be available to magic users.

OgreBattle · Post by **OgreBattle** » Thu Feb 02, 2012 3:33 am

Will it make money though?

It's been proven in the past that a game's profit and 'balance' are not related in any way. D&D is D&D and right now most reactions to D&DN playtests are positive and hopeful.

Lago PARANOIA · Post by **Lago PARANOIA** » Thu Feb 02, 2012 3:45 am

Having bad playtester isn't the only reason a bad game would have a positive playtest results. It's not inconceivable that people can arrange things such that the people who are playtesting only see the good sides of the game. Or the playtest might have had an overall positive experience because of the DM. Or it could be the Star Wars Episode I effect, where people don't want to admit that they were disappointed so overhype their initial reaction.

PhoneLobster · Post by **PhoneLobster** » Thu Feb 02, 2012 4:15 am

Need I remind anyone just how long e20, an RPG that STILL doesn't even exist has been running promotional games at conventions?

I imagine those e20 convention GMs are especially skilled at eh vapourware playtest game presentation. They should get those guys guy.

MGuy · Post by **MGuy** » Thu Feb 02, 2012 4:15 am

Not trying to derail but I don't know anyone who received Episode 1 (even initially) as good. At best most of the people I know said it was meh while I was ranting about how bad it was.

tussock · Post by **tussock** » Thu Feb 02, 2012 4:17 am

@Ice9: I don't think hirelings even can break it.

They've mentioned a few "you must be this tall to ride" mechanics, like Str 15 means yes you can jump 15' and lift 15 stone and auto-beat anyone with Str 14 or less in a grapple; so if that continues through as a general idea in the core game (you need 14 Cha to diplomance anything with Cha 13 or less), all hirelings need is flat stats and they're all but useless for anything interesting that pops up. Even if bonuses are really slow to get anywhere.

CapnTthePirateG · Post by **CapnTthePirateG** » Thu Feb 02, 2012 4:45 am

OgreBattle wrote:Will it make money though?

It's been proven in the past that a game's profit and 'balance' are not related in any way. D&D is D&D and right now most reactions to D&DN playtests are positive and hopeful.

Actually, not really. There's a growing collection of playtesters on EnWorld who thought the mechanics were shit.

Lokathor · Post by **Lokathor** » Thu Feb 02, 2012 5:30 am

MGuy wrote:Not trying to derail but I don't know anyone who received Episode 1 (even initially) as good. At best most of the people I know said it was meh while I was ranting about how bad it was.

I liked it a lot.

I was in 5th grade though, and explosions were cooler back then.

Avoraciopoctules · Post by **Avoraciopoctules** » Thu Feb 02, 2012 6:05 am

I liked Star Wars Episode 1, but I am easy to entertain. It also could be argued that I have terrible taste in entertainment in general.

erik · Post by **erik** » Thu Feb 02, 2012 6:50 am

Avoraciopoctules wrote:I liked Star Wars Episode 1, but I am easy to entertain. It also could be argued that I have terrible taste in entertainment in general.

I think it could be argued based upon this quote alone.

ishy · Post by **ishy** » Thu Feb 02, 2012 8:34 am

I liked star wars episode 1 too, but then again I've never seen the movie and only seen it through Darths and droids, so I guess it doesn't really count?

Parthenon · Post by **Parthenon** » Thu Feb 02, 2012 10:50 am

CapnTthePirateG wrote:
OgreBattle wrote:Will it make money though?

It's been proven in the past that a game's profit and 'balance' are not related in any way. D&D is D&D and right now most reactions to D&DN playtests are positive and hopeful.
Actually, not really. There's a growing collection of playtesters on EnWorld who thought the mechanics were shit.

Really? Have they explained in what way they thought the mechanics were shit?

Daztur · Post by **Daztur** » Thu Feb 02, 2012 11:04 am

Parthenon wrote:
CapnTthePirateG wrote:
OgreBattle wrote:Will it make money though?

It's been proven in the past that a game's profit and 'balance' are not related in any way. D&D is D&D and right now most reactions to D&DN playtests are positive and hopeful.
Actually, not really. There's a growing collection of playtesters on EnWorld who thought the mechanics were shit.
Really? Have they explained in what way they thought the mechanics were shit?

They mostly seemed to boil down to "this is not 4ed. I LIKE 4ed."

ScottS · Post by **ScottS** » Thu Feb 02, 2012 11:31 pm

Windjammer wrote:Bruce Cordell has lost it. Completely. He shouldn't be at the helm of D&D, and anything he's going to produce is going to be god damn awful.

When I posted that list of "good stuff" he's done in the (distant?) past, I was going to add that perhaps he's been on a downward trajectory (e.g. flying squid taxis in new FR), but I haven't read any of his 4e solo-credit stuff in detail. Despite the Den objections, I'm still going to make the argument that he could be useful on the team if it increases the quality of the fluff (if for example they can come up with a main setting which is more interesting/less phoned-in than the Nentir Vale/PoLand).