The Gaming Den

The post-18 game doesn't have to happen at all, which means the last 3-4 adventures are completely and utterly fucking unimportant.

The last four are a vehicle for the demon lords to appear in.

The design doc was probably to write modules that a party including Tordek and Lidda could participate in at 18th-20th level, maybe a Monk instead of a Wizard at all, while encountering a bunch of demon lords, and give everyone something to do along the way. Unless you basically make the party stumble around some huge-size mystery tunnels and make deals with the lord of lies, there's probably not much to be done.


3e characters are extremely divergent in abilities at maximum level, there's a bunch of stuff sitting at both ends of the RNG, and if you're missing something up there then no one else can compensate for it at all. Part of writing the generic module is you have to have to still let the Fighters walk (and sail) through it.

Demogorgon has one canonical ability. He's a two headed evil super genius who can and does multitask. Not only is "attack him in two places" not even remotely the kind of advice that justifies unleashing an imprisoned elder evil... it's one of the few plot points the adventure could have offered that is actually wrong.

-Username17

The design doc was probably to write modules that a party including Tordek and Lidda could participate in at 18th-20th level, maybe a Monk instead of a Wizard at all, while encountering a bunch of demon lords, and give everyone something to do along the way. Unless you basically make the party stumble around some huge-size mystery tunnels and make deals with the lord of lies, there's probably not much to be done.

The problem with this statement is it's wrong. There are quite specifically parts of the adventure, before the last few adventures, where being a Monk or a Fighter or, indeed, non-caster is a non-starter. Nevermind that you require Plane Shift to get to Pazunia; the entire bar-lgura thing during Here There Be Monsters shows that Fighters and Monks straight up can't participate. The very first combat means if you don't have someone casting sleep or color spray then you're going to lose an oh-so-valuable first level party member.

The entire thing is written in such a manner that encourages Greyhawking, and it's dumb.

I think it says a lot about this path that the level 3 adventure Bullywug's Gambit is the best of the lot.

On the design viewpoint, I was very annoyed that the last 4 adventures of the Path didn't have any advice on "what to do if your PCs don't want to make pacts with demons?"

I'm buying adventures because I don't have the time and inclination to make all this stuff up, and hopefully because the adventure was at least minimally playtested. And the issue of the party's paladin not wanting to cut a deal with a demon seems like something that might come up in playtest, and should have been addressed.

Also: they really named their super-succubus "false desire."?

So the past few days I've been trying to get the last two modules out, but it's just so fucking boring that I fall asleep trying to do it. Yeah, that's right - high level planar travel and interacting with the various Demon Lords is FUCKING BORING. I can, however, summarize because it involves the least amount of looking at the goddamned text and mathing out the various bullshit that happens.

First off, we have Enemies of My Enemy written by Wolfgang Baur.

So last time, the River Styx was flooding the planar prison, and Charon was riding his boat down it towards the PCs. He gives the PCs a lift out to Iggwilv's Landing, which has the MOTHER FUCKING SEA WYVERN docked at it because we can't just let this bullshit fucking ship go, ever. There's a sidebar about the PCs attacking Charon, because the boatman of the River Styx is "obviously evil". Apparently Charon reforms every 24 hours and continues trying to kill the PCs if they kill him, until he fucking kills them and then railroads them to the next part. No, I'm not fucking kidding. This is for a group of level 19 characters, and they get hit with the fucking railroad.

Why yes, someone at Paizo rubbed their 'Can't-MC-To-Save-My-Life' schlong all over this adventure path.

Anyways, the Sea Wyvern kind of serves a point, as it's permitted to ply the River Styx, which as alluded to earlier, touches a lot of layers of the Abyss. Great. First up is greeting Iggwilv, after fighting through her friends who want you to stop getting to her.

Iggwilv is, in fact, a female human wizard 26/archmage 4. Yeah. 30th level Wizard. Who has some Epic spells. Who could end this herself. She doesn't because ???.

Anyways, she gives the names of some of the others willing to help you oppose Demogorgon; Charon, Orcus, Gwynharwyf, Malcanthet (who has already fucked the PCs over a couple of times behind the scenes), Obox-ob, and Bagromar (one of Demogorgon's own lieutenants).

So the PCs go off to recruit Orcus in Thanatos, armed with a letter of fucking introduction written by Iggwilv. Thanatos has thin air that forces DC 18 Fort saves every hour or become fatigued, then exhausted, and you don't care because your party has Necklaces of Adaptation because they cost literally nothing and are the answer to 75% of all bad MC plans. Orcus requires a DC 50 Diplomacy check (with the letter of introduction somehow providing a +10) who then challenges them to a Trial of Honor combat by choosing their own champion to go up against Orcus' champion(s) - depending on if they make the check or not. If the check succeeds Orcus' champion is one CR 18 Female fiendish death giant. Otherwise they face two and a CR 20 crawling head.

They're transported into an arena to do battle - one PC vs one or three things. And I found the reason why this is so awful.

Wolfgang Baur is quite obviously a 1E or even 2E GM who likes to rub his Fuck You Dick all over everything he writes. Though Robert Lazzaretti is the cartographer I have no doubt Wolfgang is responsible for the "one inch = 100ft" thing.

Anyways, surviving the encounter enlists Orcus' aid, where he will drive an army to the Gaping Maw to fight Demogorgon. Also it provides us Orcus's stats, which is just a reprint from Fiendish Codex.

Then the PCs travel to the Court of Stars where at long fucking last the affiliation scores come into play; anyone with an affiliation score of 21+ in the Church of Whirling Fury gets to bypass the holy fuck annoying Tulani eladrin who tries to goad the PCs into attacking them so they can kill them, especially insulting any Evil characters or Lawful characters or, everyone if they took th efucking Sea Wyvern and rode across the Styx to get here. And if that doesn't work he subjects them to challenges for each PC in turn, challenges that include wrestling (winner is the one who pins the other for 3 rounds), jousting (the rules are fucking horrible, but I'll post them in a spoiler for people who want jousting in their games), or a steeplechase. All PCs have to succeed at their chosen challenge or the dickhole orders them to leave - it basically says "when you judge the PCs have had enough of this guy, end it".

Jousting!

Either way, Andros gets chastised by another dick-waving NPC (or he's dead), a ghaele bard 5/lyric thaumaturge 7 named Celeste, who takes them to Queen Morwel, Eladrin Queen, blah blah blah, who eventually tells them to go kill the linnorm Redfang who is poisoning Yggdrasil or ate a star from the Court of Stars or something, so they get sent to Yggdrasil. Redfang is an elite dread linnorm that is somehow CR 22.

Success gets them an audience with Gwynharwyf, who readily agrees to take her armies to the Gaping Maw.

Then the PCs go to Shendilavri to recruit Malcanthet to their cause, where they get to engage in a Diplomacy-off with the Queen of Succubi, and winning means someone gets to have 4 negative levels inflicted and get a +4 profane bonus to an ability score and all saving throws, in exchange for being marked by Malcanthet and lets them have a status spell that Malcanthet can always monitor as well as have Malcanthet always capable of communicating with them telepathically, while also letting Malcanthet use her SLAs through the character as if they were the originator of the effect. Also she can scry them.

Then she wants them to go capture someone named Crimson to get the Iron Flask of Tuerney which can be used against Demogorgon.

Crimson is a Succubus assassin who's pouting that Malcanthet was letting an incubus named Sypharian take the important killings. They have to fight their way through six vampires and then talk to Crimson. They can lie to her ,make a DC 50 Diplomacy check or win an Intimidate check to make her go back to Malcanthet, or physically restrain her and carry her back. Crimson is a lilitu bard 12. So taking her back or bringing her back means she gets executed by the rest of the order she belongs to.

You know, I get what they're doing here - success at a price. Could they have been a little more fucking SUBTLE with it? Maybe in a way that would let the fucking Paladins play, too?

Anyways, on Crimson's death Malcanthet gives them the Iron Flask of Tuerney, which lets them capture Obox-ob to unleash against Demogorgon. Guess where the PCs go next.

But first, I want to point out once again that Wolfgang Baur is a complete asshole MC. He suggests that if the PCs dare to attack the Queen of the Succubi, that she will dominate and enslave them all, and, I am quoting here, "this adventure can actually proceed normally". Otherwise once Malcanthet is under 100hp she runs away, taking the flask with her. It does suggest that being the thrall of the Queen of Succubi could add a "wrinkle" for "paladins and good clerics". YOU FUCKING THINK?!

Anyways, to the Blood Shallows to capture Obox-ob. They get to fight an aspect of Demogorgon here, a CR 19 creature that has 24 Outsider HD and thus is a fucking speedbump who tries to destroy the aspect of Obox-ob after the PCs cast Freedom in its general vicinity to free the aspect of Obox-ob. The flask is an iron flask, but one that specifically captures and commands demons. A DC 26 Will save is required to avoid being captured, which the Aspect of Obox-ob resists 80% of the time with his +22 Will save, yet the adventure says they can capture him in "one or two rounds".

Capturing Obox-ob prompts another attack by Demogorgon's agents, specifically a CR 19 Unique demon named Major Enderan and 4 lemorian lancers (CR 15 stone giant juju zombie fighter 5s) and 5 bodak tyrannosaurses.

From there, it's back to Pazunia, to recruit or kill General Bagromar, Clone of Hethradiah, one of Demogorgon's heads. An opposed Diplomacy check against Bagromar's +43 secures his alliance, or they have to fight him; a CR 23 Outsider with 27HD and 48 AC (11 touch), saves of +29/+23/+21, and no fly speed in an open space.

And that's Enemies of My Enemy. The fucking bullshit of Wolfgang Baur as a killer MC is evident in every fucking word.

Heading into Prince of Demons, by Greg A. Vaughn, it assumes the PCs are 20th level, when they are probably 21st or 22nd if you actually followed the random encounter charts. That means the game just breaks because epic spellcasting exists due to Iggwilv having it.

The PCs start off with... having to herd the demons as if they were unruly schoolchildren because they all want to have the war council in their own fucking domain. Neutral ground they can agree to with a DC 30+ Diplomacy check. River Styx on a 30, plus a DC 50 Diplomacy check on each demon lord to convince them that Charon won't fuck with them.

Sigil on a DC 35 and this is a fucking non starter because these assholes are FUCKING POWERS AND AREN'T ALLOWED IN SIGIL. FUCK YOU PAIZO. DO YOUR FUCKING RESEARCH.

Outland, at the bottom of the Spire Sigil stands on top of, in the dead magic zone, on a DC 40.

Fuck you, Paizo. Sigil? Really? Fucking Demon Princes in Sigil? Fuck you.

So the PCs then get to have a Council of War in which they map out a battle plan. The Expected Assault Plan is that Iggwilv opens a bunch of gates onto the Gaping Maw to let all the armies assault from various points at once. Charon brings 5,000 marraenoloths, Gwynharwyf brings herself and the Tourbillion Gale Host while Celeste brings the Starry Night Host, Iggwilv "has little to add to the fight" (Fuck you, Greg A. Vaughn), Malcanthet uses SLAs to anyone who formed a pact with her otherwise offers no support, and Orcus deploys all his hordes in order of expendability, starting with the V Asphyxian, then the IX Exsanguinos Legion, then the XIII Decapitatus, while simultaneously assaulting Demogorgon himself and deploying the I Thanatos to claim the beachhead the other two established and conquer Lemoriax.

Meanwhile, various other powers are in play. Ahazu is waiting for a replacement for Shami-Amourae; Dagon waits on the Shadowsea side of Wat Dragon to attempt claiming Demogorgon's crown once he's slain; and Graz'zt is plying Iggwilv for information so he can slip in and take Demogorgon's crown.

Ultimately, the PCs' goals are killing Demogorgon and destroying the master pearl after which all shadow pearls are copied, and its destruction will end the threat of the Savage Tide. The battles are basically some mass combat bullshit as the PCs break in and storm Demogorgon's castle. Let's cut to the chase, though; the PCs basically destroy all of Demogorgon's hordes with the aid of the hordes on their side, going through Lemoriax to Wat Dragon.

Somewhere in Wat Dragon, the PCs encounter Vanthus one last time. His soul has been transformed into a petitioner in the shape of a CR 1 maggot with Vanthus' face. It's actually kind of adorable, and likely the only thing you'll pay attention to while skimming.

I AM THE LORD OF DARKNESS! FEAR ME!

Vanthus basically begs for redemption. Yawn.

Anyways, Demogorgon beats Orcus as the PCs enter Wat Dragon, and waits for them in the Chamber of the Great One. Demogorgon has various debuffs that can be applied by winning goals. Weakening him is a factor of: Orcus being there to fight him, Arendagrost (offspring) being slain, the clones of his heads being recruited or killed, Obox-ob being released, and Malcanthet turning against Demogorgon. This applies a series of negative levels equal to two per goal.

Here's the table:


Demogorgon at full strength is not impressive. CR 33, AC 59 (Touch 19, flat footed 44), fast healing 20, DR 20/cold iron epic and good, SR 46, +42/+35/+32 saves, 2 tentacle sat +46 (1d8+31 and rot), 2 bites at +44 (2d6+23) and a tail slap at +44 (2d6+23 and energy drain). His list of at-wills is ultimately pointless, and shows he could have straight up killed the PCs without risking himself ever the moment he became aware of them (during the Isle of Dread bullshit) as one of them is ASTRAL FUCKING PROJECTION. At 37HD Blasphemy can probably kill the PCs outright without a fucking save. Gwynharwyf attacks Demogorgon.

Anyways, killing Demogorgon is a momentous occasion, and everyone in the Gaping Maw is aware he's dead, when the vying for his crown begins. This is a level check modified by Charisma modifier, and the person who struck the killing blow on Demogorgon gets a +15 circumstance bonus on the check. Any blood relatives to Demogorgon get a +5. Anyone who didn't participate (like Graz'zt waiting for his chance) gets a -5.

So the PCs can totally try to take Demogorgon's crown. Taking it shifts their alignment to chaotic or evil (prince's choice) and they become considered a native of the 88th layer of the Abyss. Malcanthet's proxy is forced to try and take the crown.

But more importantly, destroying the master pearl is what the PCs are (ostensibly) really here for. Disjunction can destroy it at a risky chance (like destroying an artifact) otherwise the PCs can make a DC 40 Knowledge (arcana) check to find out that bathing it in waters of serenity and purity can destroy it - like the fountain of beauty in the Court of Stars.

So in conclusion, the PCs probably still have to deal with some lingering problems. On Demogorgon's death, Iggwilv took Demogorgon's soul in the Iron Flask of Tuerney, so you don't get to pay Ahazu with it. Vanthus needs to be dealt with if the PCs didn't just step on him.

So, there's two final fuck yous to be had here: One, the new Prince of Demons has to make a DC 30 Will check to keep from going insane every month. And finally, even if you killed Demogorgon, HE COMES BACK TO LIFE AN INDETERMINATE AMOUNT OF TIME LATER. Which means your victory means precisely FUCK and ALL. Fuck you, Paizo. Just fuck you.

And that's Savage Tide. There's a lot of bullshit, a lot of railroad, and a lot of 'fuck you'. Paizo, even then, were full of shit, failure, and awful MCing practice and advice. Just fuck this path. I can't believe I ever liked it. The low level stuff is okay, though, and if you end the goddamned game with destroying the shadow pearls then you don't have to put up with the largest amount of bullshit ever seen.

Just fuck this. Fuck Paizo. Fuck everything about this path. Except for Bullywug Gambit, because it was inoffensive and even well-written, better than the other 11 parts of this shit.

So, question. What are the good and neutral gods doing? Because I thought that Armageddon is something that might catch their attention.

Not addressed directly. Might be something in Savage Tidings. Or maybe it's all their affiliations. I don't know. I don't care enough to look. The "the heroes are the only ones who can stop it and/or give a fuck" trope is in full force and that's all the attention anyone at Paizo paid.