Zero Buzz on 5E...Is It Dead Out The Gate?

[malak]

No. D&DNext is advocating post-hoc treasure drops. The +4 longsword in the Orc's "treasure hoard" is something that you can use or sell, but a +4 longsword in the Orc's "monster equipment" can't be sold and may not even be available to you once the current session is over.

The fact that this is almost universally regarded as an almost inconceivably stupid idea doesn't mean that they aren't advocating precisely that. This is Mike Mearls we're talking about.

Not sure it's even his fault. This is just a left-over from 4e.

[Voss]

Hold on, we're actually talking about 2 separate things here, and there overlapping a bit, which is adding to the confusion.

The organized play rules have monster equipment disappearing after the session, pretty much to avoid old exploitation ideas from previous organized play attempts. This is kind of stupid, but understandable, as you can get groups that have multiple DMs who gear up each other for other organized play events.

Now, the basic rules also state that monster equipment isn't sellable, but it is phrased more as a matter of the items' condition than anything else. Sort of bullshit, but for mundane equipment, I can't say I care very much.
As far as magic item drops, we actually haven't seen the final rules for how they work (though the basic rules pretty much state that magic items aren't buyable or sellable, beyond a potion or scroll).

But this is from the final playtest doc on magic items:

Intelligent monsters and NPCs use the magic items in their possession, much as adventurers do. If there’s a magic shield in a troglodyte warren, it is probably being worn by a troglodyte champion. Similarly, a ring of water walking taken from an ill-fated Underdark explorer is more likely to be on a drow cleric’s finger than hidden in her belt pouch.

Which is not post-hoc treasure drops. Now there is a non-zero chance they changed it in the final version, but indications are if the orcs have a +1 sword (+4, AFAIK, doesn't exist in 5e), some boss orc is going to be using it.

[ishy]

I'm not sure if its some bizarre attempt at blocking Greyhawking to keep things moving on, or if there is some secret unlock for real character power for having cash hidden somewhere in the PH or DMG.

The basic rules have similar language (monster equipment being essentially unsellable), but as magic items aren't buyable either... cash seems to serve no purpose beyond spell components, expensive armor (half plate and plate), and shadow run style lifestyle payments. So, really, I'm not sure why it matters if you do strip everything down.

Sorry guess I shouldn't just have quoted the part I found relevant.
The entire paragraph

Coin, art objects, trade goods, and other found wealth are converted to a gold piece (gp) value at the conclusion of a session, episode, or adventure, which is then divided by the number of characters in the party.
Each character should earn an equal share unless otherwise specified. Nonmagical equipment (such as arms, armor, and other gear) can be sold for half its cost to add to the total gp value. Arms and armor taken from defeated monsters is worthless and cannot be sold unless specified in the adventure (the party can use the items during the session in which they are found, though). As a general rule of thumb, if an item is part of a monster’s statistics, it’s not sellable.

and

Arms, armor, and other equipment fetch half their cost if you sell them. Arms and armor obtained from monsters is worthless unless otherwise specified; if such gear is found during an adventure, it can be used for the duration of the session before it breaks or becomes unusable.

So greyhawking is very much in (as long as monsters aren't wearing the stuff, because then it'll break at the end of the session). So ambush them at night when they aren't wearing it.
And magic item crafting from the DMG is also not allowed in organized play.

[Voss]

I'm not sure if its some bizarre attempt at blocking Greyhawking to keep things moving on, or if there is some secret unlock for real character power for having cash hidden somewhere in the PH or DMG.

The basic rules have similar language (monster equipment being essentially unsellable), but as magic items aren't buyable either... cash seems to serve no purpose beyond spell components, expensive armor (half plate and plate), and shadow run style lifestyle payments. So, really, I'm not sure why it matters if you do strip everything down.

Sorry guess I shouldn't just have quoted the part I found relevant.
The entire paragraph

Coin, art objects, trade goods, and other found wealth are converted to a gold piece (gp) value at the conclusion of a session, episode, or adventure, which is then divided by the number of characters in the party.
Each character should earn an equal share unless otherwise specified. Nonmagical equipment (such as arms, armor, and other gear) can be sold for half its cost to add to the total gp value. Arms and armor taken from defeated monsters is worthless and cannot be sold unless specified in the adventure (the party can use the items during the session in which they are found, though). As a general rule of thumb, if an item is part of a monster’s statistics, it’s not sellable.

and

Arms, armor, and other equipment fetch half their cost if you sell them. Arms and armor obtained from monsters is worthless unless otherwise specified; if such gear is found during an adventure, it can be used for the duration of the session before it breaks or becomes unusable.

So greyhawking is very much in (as long as monsters aren't wearing the stuff, because then it'll break at the end of the session). So ambush them at night when they aren't wearing it.
And magic item crafting from the DMG is also not allowed in organized play.

That is about what I thought. Its a touch confusing because the basic rules and the league rules are almost, but not quite, saying the same thing.

I still find the trade goods/gems at full value amusing. It straight up encourages banditry or thievery over any other kind of obtaining well, or bizarre trading consortiums where dungeon gold is turned into trade goods... which sell for exactly the same price they were bought for.

Though to be honest I hadn't known there will be item creation rules in the DMG. There is a scroll crafting feat in the PH Alpha, and it is awful. [For one thing the check is solely Int based, so effectively only wizards can create scrolls reliably: straight Int Mod vs 10+2*spell level]

[ACOS]

Not sure it's even his fault. This is just a left-over from 4e.

You're joking, right?
Because Mearls has been on staff since 3.5, was a major figure in/throughout 4e, and is solely responsible for 5e. And based on how they supposedly approached 5e, I'd say that this is a little more than just a legacy artifact.

There is a scroll crafting feat in the PH Alpha, and it is awful. [For one thing the check is solely Int based, so effectively only wizards can create scrolls reliably: straight Int Mod vs 10+2*spell level]

Wait what? That .... hurts my brain.

@ post-hoc treasure nonsense:
based on the info provided in the last couple of posts, I'd say that Frank's, et.al., assertion is absolutely correct. And it's way more offensive than the AD&D drow equipment "disintegrating in the sun" fuckery, because at least that had some plausible (albeit shaky) in-game reason.

Edit: GODDAMNIT! TWENTY MINUTES LATE! WHY MUST YOU ARTICULATE YOUR THOUGHTS BEFORE I CAN! FFFFFFFFFFUUU-

[TiaC]

Though to be honest I hadn't known there will be item creation rules in the DMG. There is a scroll crafting feat in the PH Alpha, and it is awful. [For one thing the check is solely Int based, so effectively only wizards can create scrolls reliably: straight Int Mod vs 10+2*spell level]

So, no one can make 8 or 9th level scrolls?

Edit: maybe there'll be some fucking pen proficiency.

[Voss]

@ post-hoc treasure nonsense:
based on the info provided in the last couple of posts, I'd say that Frank's, et.al., assertion is absolutely correct. And it's way more offensive than the AD&D drow equipment "disintegrating in the sun" fuckery, because at least that had some plausible (albeit shaky) in-game reason.

Actually, based on the info I posted, it is in fact wrong. We'll have to wait for the DMG to say for sure, but the magic item section from the playtest doc says exactly the opposite: if they have magic items, the monsters will use them.


@TiaC- Well, no. Upon re-reading it, you also add your proficiency bonus

You learn how to inscribe spells on scrolls, storing the spells for future casting. You can create a spell'scroll' detailed in the Dungeon' Master’s'Guide) of any spell you can cast of 1st level or higher. The scribing process requires special inks and paper worth 50 gp times the level of the spell, plus the cost of any material components for the spell.

 Scribing a scroll takes 2 days per level of the spell. If you prepare spells, you must have the spell prepared for the duration of the process, and each day you must expend a spell slot of the spell’s level or higher. At the end of the process, you must make an Intelligence check, adding your proficiency bonus to the roll, against a DC equal to 10 + twice the spell’s level. If you succeed, you create the spell'scroll. If you fail, you make errors when creating the scroll and must start the process over from the beginning, including paying again for inks, paper, and material components.

So it isn't quite as bad as I first thought, but the inherent wizard bonus bothers me (as a 20th level non wizard still has a 25% failure chance for a 1st level scroll), as does the time and cost. With 5 full casters out of 12 classes (with more half-casters), that it is Int based rather [Spellcasting Ability] based is just fucking bizarre.

Also, crafting anything, including mundane stuff, in this edition assumes a shitload of downtime.

[malak]

Not sure it's even his fault. This is just a left-over from 4e.

You're joking, right?
Because Mearls has been on staff since 3.5, was a major figure in/throughout 4e, and is solely responsible for 5e. And based on how they supposedly approached 5e, I'd say that this is a little more than just a legacy artifact.

Sure, but since the "you cannot use monster weapons" thing did not change since the release of the 4e PHB I, and therefore, in absence of more specific information to the contrary, I blame Heinsoo, Collins and Wyatt.

[Lago PARANOIA]

I wonder why 5E D&D so slowed down the pace of the adventuring day what with 1-hour short rests.

It's a defensible design decision in abstract assuming you want adventures to be paced more like, say, DCAU fare (where people have enough time between action scenes to investigate and converse and phone friends but not enough to just go home and rest) but it's specifically incompatible with the Tower of Death/Die Hard in a Castle adventure style that comes to mind when people think of a D&D or D&D-derived action scene. Hell, even the example dungeon they packaged with the first playtest breaks if you regularly spend an hour between room encounters.

[Voss]

I wonder why 5E D&D so slowed down the pace of the adventuring day what with 1-hour short rests.

It's a defensible design decision in abstract assuming you want adventures to be paced more like, say, DCAU fare (where people have enough time between action scenes to investigate and converse and phone friends but not enough to just go home and rest) but it's specifically incompatible with the Tower of Death/Die Hard in a Castle adventure style that comes to mind when people think of a D&D or D&D-derived action scene. Hell, even the example dungeon they packaged with the first playtest breaks if you regularly spend an hour between room encounters.

I've been wondering this myself, because it fucking breaks certain classes: fighters, monks and warlocks (if the final version refreshes spell slots on short rests, as alleged), but makes no freaking difference at all for other classes.

For mini-dungeons like the one in the Starter Set adventure, a short rest shouldn't be viable at all once you've made contact with enemies inside. You reasonably can't have a fight in a cave (without precautions like silence) without the rest of the cave knowing something is up, which means either pressing on or a full retreat elsewhere to recover. But stopping mid-mini-dungeon seems non-viable... unless you assume that each room is a self-contained entity separate from the larger universe.

[ACOS]

@ post-hoc treasure nonsense:
based on the info provided in the last couple of posts, I'd say that Frank's, et.al., assertion is absolutely correct. And it's way more offensive than the AD&D drow equipment "disintegrating in the sun" fuckery, because at least that had some plausible (albeit shaky) in-game reason.

Actually, based on the info I posted, it is in fact wrong. We'll have to wait for the DMG to say for sure, but the magic item section from the playtest doc says exactly the opposite: if they have magic items, the monsters will use them.

Which means it goes from being "treasure" to being "gear", which means it turns back in to a pumpkin. right?

[ACOS]

I wonder why 5E D&D so slowed down the pace of the adventuring day what with 1-hour short rests.

It's a defensible design decision in abstract assuming you want adventures to be paced more like, say, DCAU fare (where people have enough time between action scenes to investigate and converse and phone friends but not enough to just go home and rest) but it's specifically incompatible with the Tower of Death/Die Hard in a Castle adventure style that comes to mind when people think of a D&D or D&D-derived action scene. Hell, even the example dungeon they packaged with the first playtest breaks if you regularly spend an hour between room encounters.

I've always had a problem with metagamey concepts (in general) that often have to be unnaturally shoehorned in to the fiction. That kind of immersion-breaking clash has always seemed very cartoonish to me, and makes me feel very silly when I play it.

[Lago PARANOIA]

I've always had a problem with metagamey concepts (in general) that often have to be unnaturally shoehorned in to the fiction.

It's not metagamey if the game is specifically structured around a paradigm. You might accuse the idea of enforcing substantial downtime between action scenes of breaking the fourth wall, but plenty of works of fiction precisely work like that.

If I was going to implement the structure of 8-hour rests and 1-hour rests (instead of 8-hour rests and 5-minute rests), I'd make it so that players were encouraged to do non-action scene things things during the one-hour downtime. You know, shit like have a research-based skill challenge, hit up their contacts for information and support, start working on their rituals, hotswap in a new set of powers, soforth.

[animea90]

I wonder why 5E D&D so slowed down the pace of the adventuring day what with 1-hour short rests.

It's a defensible design decision in abstract assuming you want adventures to be paced more like, say, DCAU fare (where people have enough time between action scenes to investigate and converse and phone friends but not enough to just go home and rest) but it's specifically incompatible with the Tower of Death/Die Hard in a Castle adventure style that comes to mind when people think of a D&D or D&D-derived action scene. Hell, even the example dungeon they packaged with the first playtest breaks if you regularly spend an hour between room encounters.

I've been wondering this myself, because it fucking breaks certain classes: fighters, monks and warlocks (if the final version refreshes spell slots on short rests, as alleged), but makes no freaking difference at all for other classes.

For mini-dungeons like the one in the Starter Set adventure, a short rest shouldn't be viable at all once you've made contact with enemies inside. You reasonably can't have a fight in a cave (without precautions like silence) without the rest of the cave knowing something is up, which means either pressing on or a full retreat elsewhere to recover. But stopping mid-mini-dungeon seems non-viable... unless you assume that each room is a self-contained entity separate from the larger universe.

This comes down to a fundamental issue with the basic dungeon crawl. You get two outcomes:

1. Monsters in the dungeon get alerted to a fight, so the entire dungeon comes out to gang bang you. Either you win(and the dungeon is cleared after one encounter) or you die horrible.

2. Each room is soundproof and nobody bothers checking on early parts of the dungeons. Then players can just rest between encounters.


My group solves this by not having dungeon crawls. If we do attack a dungeon, we expect the entire dungeon to go on full alert pretty damn quickly.

[Voss]

This comes down to a fundamental issue with the basic dungeon crawl. You get two outcomes:

1. Monsters in the dungeon get alerted to a fight, so the entire dungeon comes out to gang bang you. Either you win(and the dungeon is cleared after one encounter) or you die horrible.

2. Each room is soundproof and nobody bothers checking on early parts of the dungeons. Then players can just rest between encounters.


My group solves this by not having dungeon crawls. If we do attack a dungeon, we expect the entire dungeon to go on full alert pretty damn quickly.

This is pretty simplistic too. They aren't necessarily all going to rush into the first fight- they might turtle up and make preparations. Depending on the nature of the complex, they may have limited access or reasons why they can't react to parts of it. And there is a rewarding part of the party having the opportunity (including the opportunity to fail) to take out sentries.

The specific problem with the starter cave is it is really fucking small, and just a cave with 3 or 4 branching rooms. The boss room is up a natural 'chimney' from a wolf den, and the next room is around a corner. In this case it should become a clusterfuck, but this is more of problem the designers have in designing lairs (the early encounter in Keep on the Shadowfell for 4e had the same problem- there should have been 15 odd kobolds and an elite goblin ganking the party.)

Had it been 3 separate, smaller caves in a valley, it could have been less stupid.

@ post-hoc treasure nonsense:
based on the info provided in the last couple of posts, I'd say that Frank's, et.al., assertion is absolutely correct. And it's way more offensive than the AD&D drow equipment "disintegrating in the sun" fuckery, because at least that had some plausible (albeit shaky) in-game reason.

Actually, based on the info I posted, it is in fact wrong. We'll have to wait for the DMG to say for sure, but the magic item section from the playtest doc says exactly the opposite: if they have magic items, the monsters will use them.

Which means it goes from being "treasure" to being "gear", which means it turns back in to a pumpkin. right?

No.
Did you read anything anyone quoted? And I mean from actual documents, rather than what they assumed is going on.

Shit in the monsters stat block is 'monster gear' and worthless (hobgoblin chain mail, shields, swords and bows). However you can still use all that shit, you just can't sell it (and for the organized league play only, goes away at the end of the session).
Treasure generated is not part of the stat block. A +1 sword is not from the stat block, and just gets used by the critter until you fucking take it.

This isn't quite like 4e, where equipment just magically don't drop. Everything carried drops, but their basic stuff just isn't worth anythings. It is still usable, just not sellable for cash. Which is a little stupid, but decidedly less so.

[animea90]

What gets me is that players do have to buy swords and armor and much of it is not cheap.

Its one thing if you are playing a game like Exalted, where you don't keep track of every piece of gold, but in D&D you do. So my fighter is supposed to buy expensive full plate armor, but he isn't allowed to wear any such armor he finds or even sell it to buy his own set of full plate.

[Voss]

What gets me is that players do have to buy swords and armor and much of it is not cheap.

With about 3 exceptions, it is all cheap as shit.

Its one thing if you are playing a game like Exalted, where you don't keep track of every piece of gold, but in D&D you do. So my fighter is supposed to buy expensive full plate armor, but he isn't allowed to wear any such armor he finds or even sell it to buy his own set of full plate.

Except, of course, you can totally wear it. You just can't sell it.
The only exception to taking and wearing it (long term) is organized league play. Ishy was quoting from the League play document. Not the rules.

[ACOS]

@ Voss:
Ah, got it. I was conflating the league play with home edition.

It's not metagamey if the game is specifically structured around a paradigm. You might accuse the idea of enforcing substantial downtime between action scenes of breaking the fourth wall, but plenty of works of fiction precisely work like that.

If I was going to implement the structure of 8-hour rests and 1-hour rests (instead of 8-hour rests and 5-minute rests), I'd make it so that players were encouraged to do non-action scene things things during the one-hour downtime. You know, shit like have a research-based skill challenge, hit up their contacts for information and support, start working on their rituals, hotswap in a new set of powers, soforth.

This is fine (sorta) for a structured adventure module type of set-up. But when all of you games have to be structured like this, it's obvious that you're only doing things that way because the rules only really allow for just that. Running the gauntlet through the Tower of Death just won't work with this set-up without liberal application of some serious mind caulk. The rules have now gotten to the point of micromanaging how the players interact with the fiction.

[Voss]

The rules have now gotten to the point of micromanaging how the players interact with the fiction

Eh. Resting/recovery rules have always been a problematic aspect of D&D, for at least partly this reason. 3e had several exploits and bizarre rules limits for recovery of spells and 1st and 2nd edition rules were almost pure bullshit and rarely used the way they were written. In some ways 4e was the least bullshit about this sort of thing, but instead turned the power structure into bullshit for everyone.

Several early modules (Temple of Elemental Evil definitely comes to mind) had marked 'Safe Rest Zones' so the dungeon crawl didn't blow up in your face. And the mind caulk there is particularly severe since the forces of good that locked up the evil in the temple installed them so people could get *into* the prison.


On the other hand, all sorts of spells that show up in the alpha document (Alarm, Rope Trick, Leomund's Tiny Hut, Mordenkainen's Magnificient Mansion, M's Private Sanctum) have a lot more use and utility when it comes to short rests (and long rest), especially since several (sadly, not rope trick) can be cast as rituals (and thus don't burn a slot). Gives a relatively safe place to hole up and burn off the rest hour if you really need. Of course, you need the 10+ minutes to cast the spell in the first place, but... yeah.
Digging throughout he alpha document is interesting. The bard/sorcerer/warlock/wizard spell lists are all fairly distinct, though the wizard gets nearly everything, especially the really esoteric shit. Almost everything with a proper name attached (except tasha's hideous laughter, which is also bard) is wizard only.

[Lago PARANOIA]

But when all of you games have to be structured like this, it's obvious that you're only doing things that way because the rules only really allow for just that. Running the gauntlet through the Tower of Death just won't work with this set-up without liberal application of some serious mind caulk.

Or you can just set up the Tower of Death and/or your game engine to account for the fact that the PCs can't or shouldn't take short rests to recover powers. D&D and most games luuuuurve discrete spell charges so if you can work around that then the problem solves itself. If you don't want to gimp Tower of Death-style adventures, I recommend using At-Wills, a seeded Winds of Fate, or Rage Meter for your resource management system.

[PhoneLobster]

I recommend using... Winds of Fate

You are never gonna stop trying to blow air into the lungs of that rotting corpse are you?

[Dean]

You are never gonna stop trying to blow air into the lungs of that rotting corpse are you?

You have aspergers.

[Dogbert]

Is there a point to having crafts take so long now? All they do is making downtime last longer... except downtime happens off-camera so they did effectively nothing.

[Username17]

Is there a point to having crafts take so long now? All they do is making downtime last longer... except downtime happens off-camera so they did effectively nothing.

Wizards and shit get real ultimate power from spell research and item creation and crap. That takes time. If the non-casters (hereafter referred to as "suckers") don't have time sinks, there becomes big questions about what exactly the fuck it is that they are doing while the Wizard cranks out bonuses. If the sort of trivial non-magical crap that the suckers want to do uses up a lot of downtime, that gives the Wizard a lot of time to produce things of real value without having to concede that the suckers are allowed to really accomplish anything worthwhile.

-Username17

[Voss]

Is there a point to having crafts take so long now? All they do is making downtime last longer... except downtime happens off-camera so they did effectively nothing.

No. About the only thing that would be worthwhile is potions of healing, and then only if they DM is being a dick and won't sell them. But even then, a single one is 10 days, so this isn't exactly time well spent.

You can't even craft something and sell it for a profit, since things automagically sell for half....

...unless, of course, you make jewelry, and then you double your investment every X days (depending on the price of the piece you're making).
It makes zero difference if you make 10 5 gp bracelets or 1 50 gp ring. Either way you spend 25 and sell for 50, and it takes 10 days.


Alternately, you can just wander around and make free money casting spells for people, at the 'selected services' rate of 10 to 50 gp per spell. So at minimum at first level (with 2 spell slots), you can make 8 times the money as some guy crafting.

The economy might be a little fucked.


And I'm not even going to get started about how fucked the economy gets with the Amanuensis cantrip (which is in the alpha doc), which copies any piece of non-magical writing, map, art, image or scene within range to a blank book, scroll or parchment. The chosen text or image is transcribe as though written or drawn by a master scribe or artist, and a single casting can copy about 50 pages of text and images.

Cantrip. Copies. Art, with skill of master artist.
Art sells for full value.
Cost: 1 minute casting time, and blank scrolls, parchment or books
Profit.

Oh, yes, the duration is instantaneous, so it lasts forever.