POKEYMANS thread

PhoneLobster · Post by **PhoneLobster** » Wed Aug 03, 2016 12:14 pm

Koumei wrote:You meet other people and talk to them because when you suffer from things like social anxiety, the fact that you have a shared interest (collecting pokemon) works as an icebreaker

That's nice but it doesn't make it an actual toy. It has no function for any sort of open ended whimsical imaginative play. If it had that pokemon tickling thing that other game has I'd let it slide on a technicality, but it's NOT a toy, it is, (barely) a game, and that's not the same thing.

Also, not coincidentally while it might be a shared interest there is absolutely nothing about pokemon go that actually enhances or even encourages any form of social or other interaction with anyone ever. Like any game that you only really play alone you can play it NEAR other people and talk to them about it if you want to, but inside the game with no interactions with other people? You are alone. Forever alone.

Blade · Post by **Blade** » Wed Aug 03, 2016 12:17 pm

It's still better than the pokemon match 3.

PhoneLobster · Post by **PhoneLobster** » Wed Aug 03, 2016 12:18 pm

maglag wrote:Barebones gameplay is a feature, not a bug. The point of the game is indeed for people to get out there and have a reason to talk to each other, not sink hours of soulless number-crunching trying to get the most lewt strats.

OK that's just fucking stupidity. Aside from "yay everyone loves shallowness and nothing to do!" being a stupid idea (seriously the much more complex original pokemon games are DESIGNED FOR AND PLAYED BY SMALL CHILDREN) you are also just plain wrong about it not being a number grind.

The game is nothing but stacking numeric stats. Candies, star dust and CP, grind/walk forever as the one source for all those things then put it all in a pile with the loose pretense of being a pokemon, sit on a gym, THE END.

It's not JUST a shallow game with nothing to do, there is a thing to do, and that thing IS a horrid number grind.

Koumei · Post by **Koumei** » Wed Aug 03, 2016 12:35 pm

PhoneLobster wrote: That's nice but it doesn't make it an actual toy. It has no function for any sort of open ended whimsical imaginative play. If it had that pokemon tickling thing that other game has I'd let it slide on a technicality, but it's NOT a toy, it is, (barely) a game, and that's not the same thing.

I won't (indeed can't) argue against that. I already said that I wanted it to be less game (which at this point would be "zero") and more toy, where you download your pokemon you caught in games, bring them out in the park or house in front of you, pat and tickle them, take photos with them superimposed and upload them all to facebook to confuse the fuck out of historians in the future.

Also, not coincidentally while it might be a shared interest there is absolutely nothing about pokemon go that actually enhances or even encourages any form of social or other interaction with anyone ever.

Technically true, yet that still doesn't explain what has actually happened in real life for so many people. Sure, it's like all fans of the series agreeing to go doggingtake a jog to specific places, all wearing Pokemon shirts and society agreeing that's okay for adults to do - I understand that the software itself hasn't actually added anything beyond that. But what happens to have been released is a mobile app (and staring at your phone is something everyone is allowed to do in public, unlike wearing a Pokemon shirt), so that's what people have and that's... working. Despite not being a hard-coded part of the app.

DSMatticus · Post by **DSMatticus** » Wed Aug 03, 2016 7:30 pm

First off, this game-or-toy point is the dumbest thing I have ever heard. If you actually tried to define those terms in a meaningful way that actually fit anything in the real world the only thing you'd accomplish is to be the first person to ever literally drown in stupid. You're trying to make a point about goal-oriented v. open-ended interactive entertainment, like the difference between Deus Ex and Creative Mode Minecraft. Or the difference between Arkham Horror and D&D. All four of those are games, not toys. Two of them have clear end goals and clearly defined rules for how to reach them. Two of them are directionless sand-boxes. They are all, by any definition of the word people actually use, games. There is nothing to do in Pokemon go except a bunch of mindless repetitive actions which will make numbers larger, which in turn causes your easily gamed meat-computer to give you a small dose of happy drugs. That is barely a game. That is certainly not a toy. That is an addiction, and if you are willing to fork over some cash you won't have to wait as long for your next hit.

Secondly, how the fuck is "not actually a game" a feature? Even if the game didn't fundamentally suck, you would still be meeting people, because that is what tying the gameplay to universal coordinates does. There's no exclusive or there, and there is zero reason to defend Pokemon Go from well-deserved criticism for being a steaming pile of shit because it helped you realize how pretty your local park is (or isn't). You wouldn't want Pokemon Go to be a straight rip of tradtional Pokemon titles, because that (somewhat ironically considering its a series which started on hand-held consoles) would not be mobile enough for a mobile AR game, but that still leaves a lot of room to put... something, instead of the nothing they're actually offering.

Ice9 · Post by **Ice9** » Wed Aug 03, 2016 7:45 pm

I don't know what to tell you. Apparently I'm just hallucinating that I have fun playing it, and so is everyone else who enjoys it. Or, you know, maybe your taste is not universal.

DSMatticus · Post by **DSMatticus** » Wed Aug 03, 2016 8:42 pm

"It's popular! That means it's good!"

This. This conversation right here is the worst thing about Pokemon Go. People who should really know better have been reduced to mindless drooling fanboys of the absolute worst variety by the simplest freemium scam on the fucking planet.

The fact is that Pokemon Go is a digital skinner box with Pokemon painted on the sides. Pull lever, get reward. That's it. That's the whole thing. It's not a game. It's not a toy. It's a digital mechanism which has been very carefully crafted to exploit flaws in the way your brain works in order to give you a dopamine high while playing. Not because it's genuinely fun, but because it teaches you to associate bigger numbers with progress and then allows you to make constant incremental steps in that direction - causing your brain to continuously reward you for a job well done. You haven't actually made any progress, of course - there's nothing to progress to and your actions are ultimately meaningless even in comparison to trivial bullshit like "building something neat in Minecraft." But your brain doesn't understand that, and it will give you your dopamine hits regardless because you made the numbers bigger and the numbers are supposed to be bigger so job well done.

There are a lot of people having fun with Pokemon Go in the same way that there are a lot of people having fun shooting heroin into their balls. There's a drug involved, and it feels good when you get a hit of it. Being addicted to heroin is a lot more likely to destroy your life than being addicted to freemium games, of course, but nonetheless that's what it is - an addiction that people find satisfaction in gratifying. I have no doubt that you're enjoying pulling the lever on this particular skinner box, because if you weren't you sure as fuck wouldn't be trying to defend the game itself - there's literally nothing good to say about Pokemon Go beyond "it tricks my brain into giving me dopamine for doing absolutely nothing" and possibly "I like everything about social drinking except the alcohol and the bars. Oh, I know! I'll go hang out around the local pokestops." It's totally indefensible beyond that.

And no, I am not being an overly cynical curmudgeon. This is the basis for a massive and lucrative industry. This is really how this shit works, it definitely does work, and Pokemon Go is genuinely an outrageously blatant example. Most freemium games actually do go to some effort to, you know, actually be games. The same really cannot be said of Pokemon Go.

Kaelik · Post by **Kaelik** » Wed Aug 03, 2016 8:56 pm

Ice9 wrote:I don't know what to tell you. Apparently I'm just hallucinating that I have fun playing it, and so is everyone else who enjoys it. Or, you know, maybe your taste is not universal.

Heroin addicts don't hallucinate their good time either, doesn't mean it's a well designed drug.

Prak · Post by **Prak** » Wed Aug 03, 2016 8:59 pm

It's like none of you fucking collected shit as kids...

maglag · Post by **maglag** » Wed Aug 03, 2016 9:18 pm

Kaelik wrote:
Ice9 wrote:I don't know what to tell you. Apparently I'm just hallucinating that I have fun playing it, and so is everyone else who enjoys it. Or, you know, maybe your taste is not universal.
Heroin addicts don't hallucinate their good time either, doesn't mean it's a well designed drug.

Indeed, Heroin fucks up your health and isolates you from your own family and friends.

Pokemon Go on the other hand actually improves your health by getting you to exercise and has also been drawing family and friends together (since it's simple enough for anybody to play) while making it easier to make new friends (since it demands players to get out of their houses and walk at public places where the other players will be).

When you're catching fresh air and using your muscles and interacting with other people in the flesh, that's some well deserved dopamine.

PhoneLobster · Post by **PhoneLobster** » Wed Aug 03, 2016 11:27 pm

maglag wrote:Pokemon Go on the other hand actually improves your health by getting you to exercise

But does it?

Really?

The stupid limitations on what exercise is allowed to count at all and the utterly bizzare decisions about not just locations but also wild pokemon appearance rates mean that actually it's really not that great at being an exercise motivator.

I walk. I walk a fucking lot. If Pokemon Go weren't a shoddy attention hog trying to sell me a fucking stupid wrist accessory I could easily have logged MANY times the numbers of kilometers I logged with the stupid thing, and that's even excluding all the walking I do which I can't take my phone on due to my work's intimate association with water and mud.

All Pokemon Go can do for me is count SOME of the walking I do by making it SLOWER, INTERRUPTED and LESS SAFE. It only applies if I'm walking with extensive time to waste in an area that has been magically deemed to be worth it, that is also safe enough to walk around with a phone in hand, turned on, not in sleep mode, burning battery like no tomorrow (seriously for something that does the same or less stuff than Google Maps it's fucking unacceptable) and then, as a result I walk LESS than I would have if I were just walking my unreasonably cute tiny dog.

As for getting me out doing walking in the first place? Spending my free time I wouldn't have walked walking instead? Not really, and in fact because I would need to DRIVE somewhere in order to get any real productive "pokemon walking" out of it the drive time actually cuts into time I would have just spent... WALKING, and then the pokemon related activity... stops me walking and eats up time that I could have spent... WALKING.

And, my immediate local area which, as a quite semi-rural area is OTHERWISE better suited to fucking walking around in than a lot of the places pokemon go would prefer me to be in, like THE BUSY CAR-PARK AT A NEARBY SHOPPING HUB.

And with a location with good enough wild pokemon rates and an actual pokestop you can just sit there doing shit all and catching pokemon at a rate FAR exceeding anything I can do in a 3 km walk of my home, or even a 1 km walk around my nearest pokestops.

The basics of Pokemon Go require you to be out and walking, but it's designed in ways that don't really mesh all that well with genuine or frequent exercise and only really rewards you for being in the right place, or being prepared and able to do LESS walking in a less safe time wasting way in places that you did not choose as convenient for your travel needs or safe or suitable for walking in and then also destroys your phone battery and leaves you without a phone for all other intents and purposes.

Omegonthesane · Post by **Omegonthesane** » Thu Aug 04, 2016 7:15 pm

T'be fair, for the sole purpose of hatching eggs Pokemon Go counts your walking for full value (modulo shitty GPS).

Kind of salty about the battery life myself though.

OgreBattle · Post by **OgreBattle** » Sat Aug 06, 2016 3:58 pm

now available in Thailand

Longes · Post by **Longes** » Sat Aug 06, 2016 4:25 pm

And no longer available in Iran.

Ice9 · Post by **Ice9** » Mon Aug 08, 2016 6:17 pm

PhoneLobster wrote:The stupid limitations on what exercise is allowed to count at all and the utterly bizzare decisions about not just locations but also wild pokemon appearance rates mean that actually it's really not that great at being an exercise motivator.

Still enjoying PkmnGo, but I was thinking about this part - how to design it as ideal for walking purposes. There's obviously some trade-offs, because not everyone has the same walking conditions, but some ideas:

* Looking at your phone while walking is suboptimal. Therefore, I'd make it more about the destination (and the checkpoints along the way) and less about the journey.

* Having to have the phone on all the time to count walking distances eats battery life like popcorn. I'd just apply the "15 mph" limit to an entire span, require checking in only periodically. Yeah, this means you could drive somewhere, sit around an hour, and then check in and have it think you walked there, but as long as walking isn't a disadvantage, who cares?

* When you go to a new area you've never been before, and catch something new, that's awesome. But when you go somewhere new, and there's just the same pigeons and rats there? Sad trombone. There should be mechanics tied into new (for a given user) areas and/or distance from that user's "home" location.

So if I were making one, it would be something along the lines of:
1) There are checkpoints all around, like the poke-stops are.
2) There are a smaller number of 'quest points', like the gyms.
3) The main gameplay is to go on "quests". You pick a quest point and go to it. Along the way, you can tag checkpoints for some benefit. Maybe some short gameplay at the checkpoints. It shouldn't be necessary or encouraged to tag every single checkpoint though.
4) You can also "camp" or something, by which I mean register your position and have some short gameplay at a random spot which isn't a checkpoint. For when you're walking through places with not enough checkpoints.
5) At the quest point, you have the main gameplay.
6) You get some benefit from how long your journey to the quest point was.
7) You also get some benefit from quest points you haven't been to before, and/or ones you haven't visited recently.

This is more for a hypothetical AR game than PkmnGo specifically.

maglag · Post by **maglag** » Mon Aug 08, 2016 11:37 pm

That sounds quite a bit like Ingress.

However that game still failed to get tens of millions of people that were previously sitting in their asses most of the day to be now walking quite a bit like Pokemon Go did.

You're right that everybody has different walking conditions, but Pokemon Go's formula is still the most super effective found so far.

Kaelik · Post by **Kaelik** » Tue Aug 09, 2016 1:17 am

maglag wrote:That sounds quite a bit like Ingress.

However that game still failed to get tens of millions of people that were previously sitting in their asses most of the day to be now walking quite a bit like Pokemon Go did.

You're right that everybody has different walking conditions, but Pokemon Go's formula is still the most super effective found so far.

Every time you speak, it's like you are trying to set a new world record for dumb.

The difference between pokemon go and ingress is that one of those is a name associated with childhood nostalgia for an entire generation, and the other is something 95% of people have never heard of. Not that ingresses fucking mechanics are inferior. No one even fucking heard of Ingress before Pokemon Go, and now, 90% of people who have heard of it know it as "That thing made by the people who made pokemon go."

Ice9 · Post by **Ice9** » Tue Aug 09, 2016 8:19 pm

maglag wrote:However that game still failed to get tens of millions of people that were previously sitting in their asses most of the day to be now walking quite a bit like Pokemon Go did.

It failed to get me playing it because I never heard that it existed. I think we can assume that the wide-spread popularity of the Pokemon IP had some effect on the game's success.

Koumei · Post by **Koumei** » Wed Aug 10, 2016 3:36 am

Putting mobile apps aside, oh my god I love the new sandcastle pokemon that will be appearing in Sun and Moon.

...I assume everyone here checks serebii.net on a regular basis to get news of the new games.

The region-specific variants idea is interesting, and I wonder if this will be a replacement for Mega-Evolutions, basically giving buffed versions of older pokemon that were kind of average. Or if this is in addition and they're piling more and more weird variant shit on. Mostly it bears pointing out that long-necked Exeggutor Eggpalmtree is fucking Dragon type.

Meanwhile Charizard needs to Mega-Evolve to be a dragon and Gyarados will never be a dragon.

Prak · Post by **Prak** » Wed Aug 10, 2016 4:03 am

The fire-dancer marowak is pretty cool too. I'm waiting to see what's going on with Eggpalmtree, because the type change makes me really dubious that it's just a regional variant. But I haven't looked at much news on pokemon lately, so I don't know what's been said about it.

OgreBattle · Post by **OgreBattle** » Wed Aug 10, 2016 4:44 am

I want variants for all the 150's

Koumei · Post by **Koumei** » Wed Aug 10, 2016 5:14 am

Prak wrote:The fire-dancer marowak is pretty cool too. I'm waiting to see what's going on with Eggpalmtree, because the type change makes me really dubious that it's just a regional variant. But I haven't looked at much news on pokemon lately, so I don't know what's been said about it.

All the regional variants have more than just a new appearance - so far IIRC every single one has had a Type change and it looks like mostly Ability changes too.
Exeggutor becomes Grass/Dragon with Alert or something like that
Sandshrew/Sandslaash become Ice/Steel (Blaziken says YES) with... Snow Cloak I think?
Vulpix becomes Ice and Ninetales becomes Ice/Fairy with Snow Cloak.
Meowth becomes Dark
Cubone becomes Ghost/Fire

Strange times.

Prak · Post by **Prak** » Wed Aug 10, 2016 7:36 am

Definitely strange, but ok. Like I said, I haven't been paying much attention. It's definitely a cool idea, but seems like it could cause some confusion.

Shrapnel · Post by **Shrapnel** » Thu Aug 11, 2016 12:18 am

Koumei wrote:Putting mobile apps aside, oh my god I love the new sandcastle pokemon that will be appearing in Sun and Moon.

...I assume everyone here checks serebii.net on a regular basis to get news of the new games.

I do, at least.

You know what makes the sandcastle pokemon awezome and not lame like the retarded ice cream cone?

The fact that it's doing a sarlaac impression on a Pikachu.

Also, the Vulpix and Ninetails variants are fucking adorable.

Koumei · Post by **Koumei** » Thu Aug 11, 2016 2:19 am

I was okay with the ice cream pokemon - by the time that one came out I was beyond giving a fuck about stupid concepts and just rolled with it. Or I was just traumatised by Patrat/Watchdog's eyes and was hypnotised such that I would have even accepted a giant anus for a pokemon.

Case in point

So we have a new fish that looks kind of lame, until its Ability causes other tiny fish to swarm around it and make it look like a giant fish. Like some schools of fish actually do except exaggerated Pokemon-style in that even to us it totally looks like one giant fish monster. That's pretty cool.

And a fish that appears to be based on the sea cucumber in that it can "expel its insides out of its mouth", except in this case it's to use them as a fist rather than to gross people out.

"I will punch you in the stomach... WITH MY STOMACH!"

And new Electro-Psychic Raichu form looks... interesting? I mean, Raichu itself is sort of cool and bad-ass. This one looks cuter, a bit like Mega Audino (which is unfortunate)?