The Middle East Explodes...

[tzor]

Personally, I think it should be "moved" someplace else where the people will be safer and less able to perpetrate crimes against humanity while using the Holocaust as its defense.

Sure, I'm all for that ... If you move every single Moslem out of Mecca.

"Crimes against humanity?" Cut me a fucking break. Let's see what you say when sopme fucking bastard that wants you fucking dead dumps a plethors of rockets over your fucking school children in their schools every fucking day of the every fucking year non stop forever.

Israel is the best democracy in the Middle East; fuck it, it is the only operating democracy. It has more fucking religious freedoms than any other place in the entire Middle East, including the so called "secular" (that's a fancy term for "Let's fuck the Orthodox Christians" ... Turkey is the very model of a modern Islamic "secular" state) nations in the Middle East. There are whole sects of Islam that exist in Israel only because the Muslim world would fuck them over three times and then descrate the bodies if they could.

This is the line in the sand. Never again. These leaders of the Middle East; they were the ones kissing the ass of Hitler back in the days of WWII. You want them to move somewhere else? What's next ... telling the Catholics to move out of Rome (... ok technically Vatican City ...)?

[MfA]

Israel ethnically cleansed their state through terrorism, the level of violence needed to cause that terror was remarkably small ... it was a very good campaign. Changes nothing about the facts though. After it ethnically cleansed it's land it took new land in wars and gained militarily defended borders and 2 classes of citizens within those borders. It maintained that condition both through intifadahs and through periods of calm. It was a clear choice, to maintain an apartheid state.

They created the mess and they should solve it, they have a greater responsibility than the Palestinians ... which are after all living in apartheid (how would you cultivate a desert when fertilizer is a prohibited bomb making material?). The removal of settlements in Gaza was a nice gesture, but it turned out to be just a fake to make it easier to economically cleanse East Jerusalem and move farther into the West Bank.

Especially Jerusalem shows what Israel really wants ... it wants to maintain the International status quo as long as possible, so that in the future when a peace settlement finally gets forced on them they can present the fait accompli of civilian settlement to force division in their favour.

[Maj]

That's... actually a misconception.

I know that technically there are Arab citizens, but they are frequently very marginalized despite what Israel's Declaration of Independence says. The fact is that Israel's entire purpose is to be a Jewish state - that purpose is all over their Basic Laws:

..."in order to establish in a Basic Law the values of the State of Israel as a Jewish and democratic state."

Not only that, but as much as it's nice that there's a Basic Law for Human Dignity and Liberty, denial of the rights set forth in that law are allowed so long as Israel has declared a state of emergency... Which it has done since 1948.

Technically, Israeli Arabs can vote and be Muslim, but they are often relegated to most poverty stricken areas of the country - some towns don't even have water, Arab schools received half as much funding as Jewish schools, and Arabs are not offered the same shelter and safety (bomb shelters, early warning systems, etc), or the same access to infrastructure. It's not unusual for Arabs to be denied building permits for housing and then have the shacks they build bulldozed for being illegal. Their religious buildings are allowed to fall into disrepair or be used for secular purposes, and on several issues they receive a disproportionately small amount of government funding and government representation despite making up 20% of the country's population (Related: Or Commission).

Israel may claim to be a democracy, but it's only democratic in the fact that its citizens can vote, not in that its citizens are treated equally. Segregation is Israel's social model, not integration.

I maintain that Israel can't (and won't) treat the Palestinians better. Its laws are written for Jews and its purpose is to be a Jewish state.

"Crimes against humanity?" Cut me a fucking break. Let's see what you say when sopme fucking bastard that wants you fucking dead dumps a plethors of rockets over your fucking school children in their schools every fucking day of the every fucking year non stop forever.

Shove off.

If someone took over my house by moving all their friends in, and kicked me out, you'd better believe I'd be pissed and want to take it back.

I actually know Palestinians who stood aside for the Jews decades ago because their families were told they would be able to stay on their land and keep their way of life, but it turned out that they ended up homeless. You, with your alleged connection to more Libertarian ideals... Isn't personal property something that you claim as important? Or should personal property rights only be afforded to the people you like and damn anyone you deem unworthy?

What's next ... telling the Catholics to move out of Rome (... ok technically Vatican City ...)?

What the hell? False analogy.

The Jews were kicked out of their homes by the Babylonians in 586ish BC. They were kicked out again by the Romans 800 years later. They have been scattered across the world for damned near 2000 years. In the meantime, the other people who used to live in the Levant continued living there despite various conquering peoples and they are trying to still live there... Except for the fact that various countries from around the world who didn't want their Jews kicked them out, claiming they supported the idea of recreating a millennia-old civilization because they didn't want to admit they were bigoted sons of bitches.

So powerful countries moved the Jews to a piece of land already inhabited by lots of people, declared that it was a Jewish country, and Israel has been trying to eliminate the former inhabitants ever since.

The ideal place for Israel was not smack dab in the middle of Arab territory, but no one else wanted to give up their territory, and the place had just been conquered, so I can see how it happened.

And now that it's there, I don't think it's going away. Personally, though, I think it's utterly hypocritical to support the right for a Jewish ethnic group to create their own country, but not support the right for the Palestinians (or any other significant ethnic group, for that matter) to do the same.

But the country is horribly bigoted and racist, and I don't support that. You'd think that a people who bemoan their treatment at the hands of others would have a little more respect for human dignity. They don't. If Israel is the Middle East's bastion of democracy and enlightenment, we're all fucked.

[Zinegata]

That's... actually a misconception.

I know that technically there are Arab citizens, but they are frequently very marginalized despite what Israel's Declaration of Independence says. The fact is that Israel's entire purpose is to be a Jewish state - that purpose is all over their Basic Laws:

The marginalization occurs mainly with the non-citizen Palestinians, which form the vast majority of the Palestinians living in Israeli-occupied territories. Like I said, making everyone an Israeli citizen isn't gonna happen unless hell freezes over, but Israeli law and practice does in fact treat Arab Israeli citizens as equals.

There are lots of extremist Jews in Israel, but that's not necessarily the majority view - just the most visible view.

[Maj]

Zinegata, you are wrong here. You seriously ignored my entire post.

The Or Commission was an investigation into the deaths of a dozen Israeli Arabs that concluded that the Israeli government treats its Arab citizens differently, and much worse. In fact, it's the first major public acknowledgement of that. And a year later, Or lambasted the Israeli government for doing nothing about it.

All of those things I listed in my post are things that are happening to citizens. I got a lot of my information from pages like this one at the US State Department.

Israel treats its Arab citizens badly. They can get away with it because Laws like the Basic Law for Human Dignity and Liberty don't apply in a state of emergency (which Israel has declared and renewed since 1948). It's the loophole that allows horrible injustice to continue.

[Zinegata]

No I didn't ignore your entire post. Again: The marginalization happens mainly with the non-citizen Palestinians. Your link seriously has like one incident wherein Arab Israeli citizens got hurt, but that same link posts dozens of incidents concerning Israeli abuses against the non-citizen Palestinians.

And it's not as though I claimed that life was perfect of Israeli Arab citizens:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arab_citiz ... vil_Rights

But compared to what the non-citizen Palestinians go through, they're in pretty good shape:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arab_citiz ... rimination

In short, sure, there's still inequalities even for Arab Israeli citizens. But the idea that Israel is a fundamentalist Jewish state is plainly wrong. They have a hard-right ultra-Jewish segment to be sure, but America and every European country has its own equivalent of that for crying out loud. Westboro Baptists and Neo Nazis to name a few.

The problem really is with its occupation of disputed territories, and the legal limbo the people living there are stuck in that the whole world hasn't fixed in half a century.

[Maj]

But compared to what the non-citizen Palestinians go through, they're in pretty good shape:

Well, duh.

But the idea that Israel is a fundamentalist Jewish state is plainly wrong.

Not fundamentalist, but fundamentally. The country, in its own laws, defines its purpose as being a Jewish state. Given the large discrimination, the legal loopholes, and the situation with the Palestinians, it's clear that the ethnic mandate is causing some severe conflicts with reality.

[PhoneLobster]

Actually they are increasingly fundamentalist as well.

Some of the things that fundamentalist Jews get away with doing to other less fundamentalist Jews in Israel are pretty bad and getting worse.

But that's basically what you expect when you found a state on such corrupt religious principles.

[Count Arioch the 28th]

I don't get why Christians throw fits about China jailing Christian missionaries but don't get mad at Israel for doing the same thing.

[tzor]

I don't get why Christians throw fits about China jailing Christian missionaries but don't get mad at Israel for doing the same thing.

Do you have links for that? Actually the technical situation in China is that you have to belong to a state Christian Church. Being a Roman Catholic, loyal to the Bishop of Rome, is a crime in China; you have to be a member of the State Controlled Catholic Church loyal only to the leaders of China. The fact that China has "State Religions" often goes below the radar.

[Koumei]

Well, China has this rule where "You can basically belong to any cult* you want, as long as you don't bother people. So your cult can't have Destroy The Infidels as a rule, and it can't require you to pester convert random people on the street."

So AUM Shinrikyo is out - as a religion it encouraged people to spread Anthrax and sarin gas. That's not only illegal there, it's terrorism and is illegal just about anywhere.

The various Christian sects that demand you harass people on the street are also not allowed - you have the choice of leaving the country or going to Hell. Or going to prison, I suppose.

In fact a huge number of religions and cults give them grief every now and then, so they seem to have figured "Fuck it, just regulate and supervise all of them and don't give any of them enough leeway to do anything fucking stupid." is the best option for the country.

Obviously, this means Christians tend to get butthurt, because they're not allowed to be the kind of douchebags that they're allowed to be in America.

*The actual word used when they explain stuff to you if you want to move there.

[sabs]

I have to say, despite China's many many many faults. I really like that particular attitude towards Religion.

You can be any religion you like, just keep it to yourself and don't bother other people. I wish MORE people would follow that advice.

[tzor]

Religion in China: Fact Sheet

The People's Republic of China was established October 1, 1949. Its government is officially atheist, having viewed religion as emblematic of feudalism and foreign colonialism. Religious belief or practice was banned because it was regarded as backward and superstitious by some of the communist leaders, from Vladimir Lenin to Mao Zedong, who had been critical of religious institutions.[43] Houses of worship, including pagodas, temples, mosques, and churches, were converted into non-religious buildings for secular use during its early years.[citation needed]The Cultural Revolution led to a policy of elimination of religions; a massive number of places of worship were destroyed.

This policy relaxed considerably in the late 1970s at the end of the Cultural Revolution and more tolerance of religious expression has been permitted since the 1980s. The 1978 Constitution of the People's Republic of China guarantees "freedom of religion" . The policy regarding religious practice in China states that "No state organ, public organization or individual may compel citizens to believe in, or not to believe in, any religion; nor may they discriminate against citizens because they do, or do not believe in religion. The state protects normal religious activities", and continues with the statement that: "nobody can make use of religion to engage in activities that disrupt social order, impair the health of citizens or interfere with the educational system of the state."[44] Since the mid-1980s there has been a massive program to rebuild Buddhist and Taoist temples. In recent times, the government has expressed support for Buddhism and Taoism, organizing the World Buddhist Forum in 2006 and the International Forum on the Daodejing in 2007. The government sees these religions as an integral part of Chinese culture.[45]

There are five recognized religions by the state, namely Buddhism, Taoism, Islam, Catholicism, and Protestantism.[46] To some degree, the government also controls the institutions in the religions it recognizes.[47] In October 2007, the new statute of China cites religion as an important element of citizens' life.[48] However, the Chinese government has also banned certain new religious movements.

Note the last paragraph. Orthodoxs are apparently shit out of luck here.

Let drill down to the Catholics

The Chinese Patriotic Catholic Association (simplified Chinese: 中国天主教爱国会; traditional Chinese: 中國天主教愛國會; pinyin: Zhōngguó Tiānzhǔjiào Àiguó Huì), abbreviated CPA, CPCA, or CCPA, is an association of people, established in 1957 by the People's Republic of China's Religious Affairs Bureau to exercise state supervision over mainland China's Catholics.[1] In his encyclical Ad Apostolorum Principis of 29 July 1958, Pope Pius XII deplored the attitude and activities of the Association and declared the bishops who participated in consecrating new bishops selected by the Association to be excommunicated. Pope Benedict XVI referred to the agents of the Association as "persons who are not ordained, and sometimes not even baptised", who "control and take decisions concerning important ecclesial questions, including the appointment of Bishops".[2]

...

Chinese Patriotic Catholic Association[/url]']Officially, religious organizations in mainland China today must be government-recognized and approved, though many unofficial unregistered organizations do in fact exist. The Government of China wants no organization in mainland China owing allegiance to "foreign influence", in this case, the Pope in Rome. Critics of the CPCA argue that it was created precisely to establish state control over Catholicism in mainland China.

The government rejects exercise of any authority by organs of the Catholic Church outside China after 1949, the year communists gained power over all of mainland China. CPCA, which was founded eight years later, thus does not recognize the proclamation of the dogma of the Assumption of the Blessed Virgin Mary by Pope Pius XII in 1950, canonizations from 1949 onward (e.g. the canonization of Pope Pius X), Vatican declarations on even well-established devotional piety (e.g. on the Sacred Heart of Jesus or on Mary as Queen), and the Second Vatican Council (1962–1965).

...

The bishops who conferred episcopal ordination on candidates chosen in the manner laid down by the CPCA, without a mandate from the Holy See, and those who accepted such ordination, participated in a schismatic act and were thereby automatically excommunicated.[12] However, not all of them are considered to be still in schism since, beginning in the early 1980s, nearly all[13] "took advantage of the renewed contacts with missionaries and foreign priests to send letters to Rome in which they declared their full communion with the Pope and the desire to be recognized as legitimate bishops. So ... the bishops subjected to the political control of the Patriotic Association tried the path of canonical sanatio to ... affirm their communion with the Pope, kept hidden because of external conditions, but never renounced in their hearts."[14] Those few Chinese bishops who have not done so remain in formal schism.[15]

For a time, some bishops who refused to accept CPCA control consecrated other bishops, so that there were cases of two parallel hierarchies among Catholics in China,[16] the one in schism partly,[17] the other in full communion with Pope Pius XII and his successors. The first to take this action was the bishop of Baoding, Joseph Fan Xueyan, who in 1981 consecrated three bishops without any mandate from the Holy See, which, however, gave approval for his action at the end of the same year.[18] This led to at least the perception, perhaps even the reality, of two parallel Roman Catholic Churches in China, often referred to as the "official" Church and the "underground" one.[19]

...

In his letter of 27 May 2007 to the Catholics in the People's Republic of China, Pope Benedict XVI acknowledged their faithfulness to Christ and the Church, "sometimes at the price of grave sufferings", but also expressed concern at some aspects of ecclesial life in the country, in particular the division caused by "the significant part played by entities that have been imposed as the principal determinants of the life of the Catholic community", so that "persons who are not ordained, and sometimes not even baptized, control and take decisions concerning important ecclesial questions, including the appointment of Bishops, in the name of various State agencies", with a consequent "demeaning of the Petrine and episcopal ministries".

The Pope distinguished three groups among the Catholic bishops in China. He first mentioned those who "have felt themselves constrained to opt for clandestine consecration"; he expressed the Holy See's hope "that these legitimate Pastors may be recognized as such by governmental authorities for civil effects too". The second group is that of those who, "under the pressure of particular circumstances, have consented to receive episcopal ordination without the pontifical mandate, but have subsequently asked to be received into communion with the Successor of Peter and with their other brothers in the episcopate"; in view of the existing confusion on the part of Chinese Catholics, the Pope said: "It is indispensable, for the spiritual good of the diocesan communities concerned, that legitimation, once it has occurred, is brought into the public domain at the earliest opportunity, and that the legitimized Bishops provide unequivocal and increasing signs of full communion with the Successor of Peter." The third group is that of the "very small number ... who have been ordained without the Pontifical mandate and who have not asked for, or have not yet obtained, the necessary legitimation"; these, the Pope said, "are to be considered illegitimate, but validly ordained", and "the faithful, taking this into account, where the eucharistic celebration and the other sacraments are concerned, must, within the limits of the possible, seek Bishops and priests who are in communion with the Pope: nevertheless, where this cannot be achieved without grave inconvenience, they may, for the sake of their spiritual good, turn also to those who are not in communion with the Pope."

...

After the ordination of a bishop from the patriotic Association against the permission of the Holy See, on 20th November 2010, the situation has dramatically changed. Pope Benedict XVI expressed his concern several times, and asked for prayers on December 1st, in Rome[25] using unusual firmness.

[tzor]

Here is something to think about - Three Jewish Children

First let's review what happened.

Ruth Fogel was in the bathroom when the Palestinian terrorists pounced on her husband Udi and their three-month-old daughter Hadas, slitting their throats as they lay in bed on Friday night in their home in Itamar.

The terrorists stabbed Ruth to death as she came out of the bathroom. With both parents and the newborn dead, they moved on to the other children, going into a bedroom where Ruth and Udi’s sons Yoav (11) and Elad (four) were sleeping. They stabbed them through their hearts and slit their throats.

The murderers apparently missed another bedroom where the Fogels’ other sons, eight-year-old Ro’i and two-year-old Yishai were asleep because they left them alive. The boys were found by their big sister, 12-year-old Tamar, when she returned home from a friend’s house two hours after her family was massacred.

Tamar found Yishai standing over his parents’ bodies screaming for them to wake up.

Now apparently photos were released and for a moment a viedo was posted on you-tube

Here is the Palistinian reaction

And indeed, the murder of the Fogel children and their parents was greeted with jubilation in Gaza.

Carnivals were held in the streets as Hamas members handed out sweets.

The press reaction

The headlines describing the attack make all this clear.

From the BBC to CNN the Fogels were not described as Israelis. They were a “settler family.” Their murderers were “alleged terrorists.”

As far as the opinion makers of Europe and much of America are concerned, the Yoavs and Hadases and Elads of Israel have no right to live if they live in “a settlement.”

[sabs]

Anyone who sees a family murdered and does not condemn it is scum. Yes, the Settlements are an issue. But fuck that noise. You don't murder people in their sleep. (Well I might make an exception if you're murdering some brutal dictator, or the guy who did something bad to your child). And you sure as hell never harm children, under any circumstance.

If the Palestinians want people to take them seriously when they ask for help, they need to stop dancing in the streets when people are murdered.

[Neeeek]

Anyone who sees a family murdered and does not condone it is scum. Yes, the Settlements are an issue. But fuck that noise. You don't murder people in their sleep. (Well I might make an exception if you're murdering some brutal dictator, or the guy who did something bad to your child). And you sure as hell never harm children, under any circumstance.

If the Palestinians want people to take them seriously when they ask for help, they need to stop dancing in the streets when people are murdered.

You mean condemn, right? Condone means "give tacit approval of".

[sabs]

ooops

fixed

[tzor]

Guns to Gaza
The Israelis intercept another weapons shipment bound for Hamas.
by John Hayward

The Israeli Defense Force boarded a German-owned, Liberian-flagged cargo ship in the Mediterranean today, which was riding a bit low in the water due to the tons of weapons stashed in her hold.

The ultimate destination for these weapons was the Gaza Strip. According to an Associated Press report, the goodies included several Chinese-made C-704 missiles, which could be used to attack naval forces from shore. Israel has blockaded shipments into Gaza ever since the Hamas terror organization took power, in an effort to slow down the flow of weapons. Anti-ship missiles would make blockade duty a bit more exciting for Israeli sailors.

The instruction manuals for these weapons were written in Farsi, the language of Iran, which should come as no surprise. Iran has been pumping weapons to Hamas for years. The Israelis were grimly satisfied to have a new batch of hard evidence for this pipeline. Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu declared, “The only certain thing is the source of the weaponry was Iran, and there was a Syrian relay station as well.”

You remember Iran, right? They are the ones that want to whipe Israel off of the map of the Middle East.

[PhoneLobster]

But fuck that noise. You don't murder people in their sleep.

Then maybe the Israelis, who have an actual functional government and military, should stop using it to kill innocent people.

Meanwhile the Palestinians, yes it would be nice if they stopped fighting back in sometimes very nasty ways that indeed should be condemned.

But while we CAN take the Israeli government and army to task for their actions, and by extension the state and people of Israel, that's not so easy to do with the Palestinians and other rebels.

Because THEY are a cluster fuck of disparate feuding groups with little structure let alone accountability to "the Palestinians" as a whole. Even their government is a pretty shitty excuse for an organization, AND to top it all off it was effectively and directly placed into it's position of power by the actions of the Israeli government which willfully destroyed any and all moderate opponents. Indeed the entire fragmented nature of the anti Israeli oppression rebels is pretty much a direct result of Israels policies, and endless state sponsored attacks, in general.

Both sides perform actions that should be condemned. But only one side does so in a manner where we can actually condemn that entire side and all the people behind it and even have a clear target to point at, let alone hope to reform.

The other side is just made out of chaos and raging at and condemning the worst excesses of chaos is nice and all, but you might as well go and yell at the tide until it stops coming in.

In short, we can't stop the terrorists by pointing at their crimes, we can't even find the fuckers. We CAN stop the Israel war criminals. Aside from everything else, we know who they are. And as an added bonus THEY are the guys creating the terrorists anyway and dealing with them is the only way to actually get any handle on the situation whatsoever.

We simply cannot hold each side equally accountable, it's impractical and solves nothing, the only functional alternative is to fix what we can. What else do you intend to do? No really, what is the practical solution that ends it all nicely that DOESN'T involve first dealing with those in power in Israel who are responsible for all this mess?

[sabs]

No, killing children is never excusable.
I don't care what the Isreali government, the Nazi government, the Russian government, the US did. Killing children is NEVER okay.

Saying otherwise is crap, and anyone who protects 'freedom fighters' who do this kind of stuff is scum. Anyone who dances and passes out candy needs to take a good hard look at themselves.

[PhoneLobster]

Saying otherwise is crap, and anyone who protects 'freedom fighters' who do this kind of stuff is scum. Anyone who dances and passes out candy needs to take a good hard look at themselves.

Excuse me but sorry, who gives a shit.

In the wider context of actually preventing the killing of children you focusing on the desperate desperate need to randomly condemn stuff is nothing but you falling for the distraction tactics used by people like Tzor to prevent you from actually DOING something to actually prevent what child killing we might actually be able to prevent.

We cannot stop the side of the conflict that has collapsed into violent stone age chaos because of Israel. The only methodology that can work there is simple police work and that's already happening regardless of you wasting your time condemning dudes.

Meanwhile we can actually stop the OTHER side of the conflict from actually killing actual further children. And in doing so end the chaos and eventually the child killing that it in turn causes.

You want to waggle your finger at someone? Go do it productively and start campaigning for the USA to cut ties and support to the war criminals, lets see the USA finally allow a UN resolution against those fuckers to pass, lets see them in international criminal courts, lets see the international community FINALLY put their foot down and say "no more child killing Israel".

And you know what not one single step of that process is in any way helped by you wasting your time falling for distractions and wandering around condemning random criminals that no one can stop and everyone is already trying to stop. So seriously, who gives a fuck about actively condemning them? It's assumed get the fuck over yourself and maybe we could then let the world move on to productive solutions instead of time wasting chasing your own tail to the war criminals tune of distraction.

[Username17]

More children die because of Israeli-enforced limitations on imports and exports from Palestinian Territories than Arab terrorists kill word wide. Hunger, disease, and neglect are far more deadly to children than mere explosives.

Anyone bitching and moaning about Israeli children dying to missile attacks has simply lost perspective. The plural of anecdote is not data. A tragic individual case does not balance the suffering of thousands.

-Username17

[Maj]

And indeed, the murder of the Fogel children and their parents was greeted with jubilation in Gaza.

Carnivals were held in the streets as Hamas members handed out sweets.

Your source got their information from Glenn Beck, who does not have a reputation for anything approaching honesty. In fact, as far as my searching fingers can tell, the only people who are reporting this as fact are right-wing armchair news junkies who have absolutely no way to substantiate the claim at all, and all reports seem to trace back to Beck as their source.

The headlines describing the attack make all this clear.

From the BBC to CNN the Fogels were not described as Israelis. They were a “settler family.” Their murderers were “alleged terrorists.”

Futher lies.

BBC: 'Palestinian' kills five Israelis in West Bank {OK, BBC, Murder}

CNN: Israeli family of 5 killed in terror attack, military says {OK, CNN, Tragedy}

It's important to note that the killer(s) have not yet been found, nor have any terrorist organizations claims responsibility.

All that being said, what happened to the Fogel family was utterly horrific. My words are inadequate to describe how I feel about the death.

[Zinegata]

The Palestinian Authority in fact, condemned the attack:

http://articles.cnn.com/2011-03-12/worl ... s=PM:WORLD

Palestinian Authority Prime Minister Salam Fayyad denounced the killings.

"I say that in regards to what happened (Saturday) in Itamar settlement -- and the victims were a toddler and two children, the father and mother -- exactly as we have always said against violence ... we refuse this and condemn it," Fayyad said, according to his spokesman, Ghassan Khatib. "We refuse and condemn violence, whatever the reasons are or the perpetrators or targets or victims."

On the other hand...

http://www.freedom1590.com/column.aspx? ... 9d9e9a9460

It's been widely reported that Al Asqa Martys Brigade initially took credit for the attack only to later retract it.

And then there's this:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Itamar_massacre_(2011)

The Islamic Jihad Movement in Palestine called it "a heroic attack," saying that "this attack is a proof that the Palestinians are able to go ahead with armed resistance and overcome all difficulties to reach the targets

So while Beck is looney, there are definitely shitheads on the Palestinian side who are best served by having face to face meeting with Allah.

[Maj]

Your link has led to an article which causes me to retract my statement about celebrations:

ynetnews[/url] {OK, Rafah, Sociopaths}]Gaza residents from the southern city of Rafah hit the streets Saturday to celebrate the terror attack in the West Bank settlement of Itamar where five family members were murdered in their sleep, including three children.

Residents handed out candy and sweets, one resident saying the joy "is a natural response to the harm settlers inflict on the Palestinian residents in the West Bank."

So Beck was actually right.

And yes, the PA condemned the attacks, but none of their condemnations has been adequate enough. Abbas condemned the situation twice and they're still bitching it wasn't good enough.