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Post by K »

PhoneLobster wrote:But by K's rules of the "tyrant" of "lets skip it" the small sized dungeon makes the actions of the medium sized characters oppressive to the small characters in the group... or the actions of the small characters in the groups saying "lets do it" as greedy towards the medium ones.

Meaning that by Frank and K's rules of body size and railroading anti tyranny (because only by being on the railroad are you anti-tyrannical?) not only is Large out out out, but so is small...
You should take a Logic class, because you can't string an argument together to save your life. Your local community college should have one at an affordable price.

You do understand that if your Large character has to skip the mythical and never-before-designed Small Dungeon as well, eh? (Though my Dungeon Magazines actually have a dungeon created by gnomes and its.... wait for it.... medium sized.)

The game can handle the baseline size PC, and anything smaller. So if the baseline size is Medium, you can have Small and Tiny. This works because our understanding of the world is based on Medium size. We can intuit the physics of it so we can sustain belief in it. People will design in the medium size without even thinking about it. Bridges will be the right size and ceilings will be tall enough and boats will be large enough and people will buy your ropes and pulley explanations.

Now, you could make the baseline size Tiny or Large, but you'd have to work really hard to make a game world where things make sense. Riding cats would replace riding horses in the Tiny world and the Large world would have Riding elephants. In the Large world you don't go into human towns and you don't visit the elves in their tree forts.

Designing outside the norm is a lot of work, and playing outside the norm is a lot of work because people have no experience with it. People remember being children when they were small so they can buy into a Small World, but a Large is right out. Frankly, most players can barely be asked to bring their own character sheet, so good luck getting them to play your heartbreaker Large World Game.

The farther outside the norm the harder the game gets, and unless it's for a good pay-off you don't do it. You could make a game world that is 2-D or no one can speak, and that might be fun for a night or two but people are going to get tired of it and want to play something easier.

And trying to be Large in a Medium world has problems. The fact that you want to be a source of problems in your game means you are a bad person and a bad player.

The evidence and the expert witnesses are against you and for me. Your arguments are weak, and you have proved no benefit to your position. Your argument of "centaurs can work if they have lots of magic to correct their weaknesses" is laughable on first principles since it means that the party is better off just choosing a non-centaur who can use his magic on being a good adventurer instead of covering his weaknesses.

In conclusion, you got nothing, kid.
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Post by PhoneLobster »

fectin wrote:So, Darth Rabbitt's accidental baiting aside, has this really been three days of high drama over "Centaurs have some non-obvious drawbacks which can sometimes make them work poorly in a normal party"?
Are you not familiar with this forum?

I was serious when I said that shortly after the centaur business there was a war over antigravity being "bad"... compared to... antigravity... which was "good"...
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Post by PhoneLobster »

K... you quoted my counter about small characters being tyrannical and greedy but did not address it directly at all.

The closest you got was when you just hand waved that gnomes, inexplicably, live in medium dungeons.

Because. I dunno. Underpants gnomes?

I mean how can you make an argument where you state that the world is easiest to design in "medium" mode then tell us that "oh and small is OK".

Go talk to a genuine small sized adult human about how the medium world is "close enough" in design assumptions before you go hand waving their daily struggles away like it was nothing.
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Post by CatharzGodfoot »

PhoneLobster wrote:K... you quoted my counter about small characters being tyrannical and greedy but did not address it directly at all.

The closest you got was when you just hand waved that gnomes, inexplicably, live in medium dungeons.

Because. I dunno. Underpants gnomes?

I mean how can you make an argument where you state that the world is easiest to design in "medium" mode then tell us that "oh and small is OK".

Go talk to a genuine small sized adult human about how the medium world is "close enough" in design assumptions before you go hand waving their daily struggles away like it was nothing.
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Post by K »

PhoneLobster wrote:K... you quoted my counter about small characters being tyrannical and greedy but did not address it directly at all.

The closest you got was when you just hand waved that gnomes, inexplicably, live in medium dungeons.

Because. I dunno. Underpants gnomes?

I mean how can you make an argument where you state that the world is easiest to design in "medium" mode then tell us that "oh and small is OK".

Go talk to a genuine small sized adult human about how the medium world is "close enough" in design assumptions before you go hand waving their daily struggles away like it was nothing.
Hey, I didn't design the dungeon. It's in Dungeon Magazine from the first AP. My point was that people design for medium even for smalls, and that was one piece of my evidence.

But tell me, what are the problems with a small-sized adventuring character in a medium world?

And while you are at it, why are centaurs good for adventuring parties despite all their problems?
Last edited by K on Tue Jan 11, 2011 6:24 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by fectin »

K wrote:And while you are at it, why are centaurs good for adventuring parties despite all their problems?
Unexceptional Will save allows the party wizard to swap out Mount for Charm Person.
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Post by PhoneLobster »

What are the problems for a small sized character, plenty, I can think of a particularly apt one though.

Remember that ladder and the hatch the centaur can't climb and cant squeeze through.

How about the hatch the small character can't open and the ladder/steps he needs that isn't even there.

And in the mean time, beyond the small character's own "let's skip it" moments, when the small character builds for comfort or worse defensibility in his dungeon then by YOUR PRINCIPLE he rules out medium characters from adventuring there, thus creating the dreaded let's "skip it" fatal exception.

As for the desirability of Centaurs...
1) Because with the exception of the amazing "exceedingly cramped closet monster closet adventure on the only railroad in town" they actually have minimal problems. The prevalance of you know, dudes on horses as functional characters should tell you THAT much.

Due to the prevalence of other large and larger NPCs in fantasy games the vast majority of dungeons ARE centaur accessible, to the extent that it took you guys about 6 tries until you figured the weak ladder+tiny hole at top scenario.

Centaur player's "tyranny" over the group is "oh crap, I can't go through the halfling hatch in the roof there...". Maybe I should go find the Ogre Ramp or the Beholder Chute.

YOUR Tyranny is "Centaur character can't do anything ever, including vast swathes of dungeons full of trolls and ogres, the vast majority of standard "human sized" dungeons and every outdoor map ever because there ARE no centaur PCs for fear of the halfling ceiling hatch"

You are calling "lets skip it" on far more than the Centaur ever will, and that's a net loss to your standard fantasy heartbreaker toolkit, especially as a staple fantasy icon.

2) While Frank singled out the centaur as some sort of exception (and specifically the horse based one and only the horse based one at that) the argument against allowing any character to ever damn well say "let's skip it" was pretty exceptionally broad. And if we DID accept it then that meant that yeah, the ogre, the troll, the half giant, that vaguely big clumsy human guy over there, the naga, the ghost, the guy with extra heavy plate armour, the sneak attacker, the pyromancer,etc... would also fall under the dreaded "lets skip it" ban in which, well, people like you would want to implement the dreaded tyranny of "let's skip it" in even allowing the option for their presence in a game system.

You HAVE indeed extended this ban as part of your shifting goal posts. Now if your position held true we already know there will be no pyromancers, no sneak attackers, no ogres or indeed ANY large guys, no guys too heavy for the elfin griffin "freedom" railroad, no one with a poor climbing skill, no traditional mounted knights, no one with a dislike of dogs, etc...

Small characters are currently hovering on the hungry abyss of this STUPID idea of yours and frankly anybody could be next.

So really the great desirability behind centaurs in this debate is the old "First they came for the Centaurs, then they came for the Trolls..." business.

3) Characters larger than the standard human (including big humans) and characters clumsier than the standard human (including clumsy humans) are desirable characters any half decent fantasy heart breaker damn well SHOULD support as playable to some degree.

As "big as a horse" or "as clumsy as a horse" is not actually altogether very big, or indeed altogether very clumsy. Now you probably will want to draw the size and clumsiness line SOMEWHERE but drawing it at the horse level is needlessly, INCREDIBLY harsh. Especially in a world absolutely overwhelmed with opponents and adventuring opportunities the same size and larger.

Effectively as far as I'm concerned when you FINALLY conceded that you were ruling out mere 10' tall trolls and ogres you had lost the argument.

Hard.
Last edited by PhoneLobster on Tue Jan 11, 2011 9:04 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Post by Starmaker »

PhoneLobster wrote:How about the hatch the small character can't open and the ladder/steps he needs that isn't even there.
Small characters can open hatches just fine. Small races tend to have -2 to Strength to account for proportionally smaller muscles. A medium-size Wizard is likely to have Strength 6 to 8.
PhoneLobster wrote:And in the mean time, beyond the small character's own "let's skip it" moments, when the small character builds for comfort or worse defensibility in his dungeon then by YOUR PRINCIPLE he rules out medium characters from adventuring there, thus creating the dreaded let's "skip it" fatal exception.
Indeed, there are a number of adventures where PCs have to navigate cramped kobold tunnels. They typically have rulings that PCs get an AC/DEX/Ref/whatever penalty, cannot exchange places, etc. So what?
PhoneLobster wrote:The prevalance of you know, dudes on horses as functional characters should tell you THAT much.
Uhm, what? D&D is about dungeons. A horse is a low level means of transportation. It's also an attribute of Knights, a popular fantasy archetype. The concept of "dude on a horse" is so out of genre for dungeon-crawling adventuring that 4e has disregarded it completely and thus fucked it up.
PhoneLobster wrote:the half giant
...the medium-size strawman...
PhoneLobster wrote:that vaguely big clumsy human guy over there
There's a difference between "vaguely big clumsy" and Bonita Goose-clumsy.
PhoneLobster wrote:the naga
No hands.
PhoneLobster wrote:the ghost
OP where relevant.
PhoneLobster wrote:the guy with extra heavy plate armour, the sneak attacker, the pyromancer
Armor can be stuffed into a bag of holding when necessary. Sneak attackers have other stuff to do in typical "no sneak attacks" adventures (treasure-filled tombs). Pyromancers don't exist except in Tome, where they do fine.
PhoneLobster wrote:no guys too heavy for the elfin griffin "freedom" railroad
Held under dorsal feathers?
PhoneLobster wrote:no one with a poor climbing skill
A knotted rope is DC what again?
PhoneLobster wrote:no traditional mounted knights
And this is news how?
PhoneLobster wrote:no one with a dislike of dogs
No one with a crippling fear of the common mutt. Compare "I'd rather sleep outside" ranger and a character with "OMGWTF I'm not going in there" claustrophobia.

And all those Alter self things are fucking dumb. When people want to play centaurs, they actually want their character to have that particular body type. This is why the 4e dragonborn failed. This is why being told to play a crossdressing dude when you want to play a woman (and vice versa) is offensive. An awakened blown mold polymorphed into a human is just as dumb a character concept as a non-polymorphed awakened brown mold.
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Post by PhoneLobster »

Starmaker, your post is drivel.

You go through the list and go "oh hey, well we can just chuck that one out..." Sorry. No. Everything on that list is a fucking must have so fuck off.

... or misread some crap (sorry a LOT of "Naga" have hands, try a google image search if you don't believe me, and for a mystical spell casting critter with an agile tail hands are optional. And as for medium sized half giants... well... bullshit and poppy cock, call it an ogre, troll, minotaur, or giant, and with the realism arguments floating here the abstract size rules for the 3E iteration are meaningless)

... or suggest mitigation measures.

And STOP RIGHT THERE.

Mitigation options, means of avoiding or overcoming obstacles ARE (apparently) NOT FUCKING ALLOWED IN THIS DISCUSSION.

Why? Because if we actually introduced them this discussion is over and I fucking win. Why? Because there are simple mitigation measures that can solve ALL the so called problems of the (handless) Naga, the Troll, the (actually big) Half Giant, the Centaur and more.

The prevalence of shrink potions, climbing equipment, plot convenient alternate routes, levitation, teleportation, and polymorphing and a thousand other things, in the source fiction and even typical RPG rules are MASSIVE.

To the point that when HUMAN characters encounter almost identical obstacles such as kobold warrens, dangerous cliffs, underwater caves and the like, the standard response (aside from the all too common, but apparently world destroying "lets just skip it") is to use mitigation measures drink a shrink potion, levitate up the cliff face with a rope ladder in hand and polymorph into a dolphin with a back up vial of water breathing elixer strapped to its nose.

But when people have tried suggesting that sort of stuff for the centaur and co it is inexplicably not allowed. Why the hell does a fucking -4 Climb modifier human get a free run at the ladder+tiny ceiling hatch because maybe someone drags him up on a rope or he dimension doors over or some crap?

Because seriously when people suggest such measures can or should be available to the monstrous character certain folks are all "hell no". So fairs fair, turnabouts fair play and all that jazz, no knotted ropes, no taking the plate mail off (its a fucking class feature you need to be effective, you don't take it off, and adventures that require you to get the "lets skip it" treatment), no shrink potions and winches. Because if the monsters don't get that shit then neither do the humans and the gnomes DEFINITELY don't.

Edit: I notice on a second glance that you yourself in a post where you largely rely on mitigation measures... personally disallow mitigations measures to centaurs with a lame excuse. Sorry. People who play a human character specifically chose not to play a small character, but they still happily use shrink potions and related effects to muck about in the air vents. Temporary mitigation measures used in a minority of adventures, which is exactly the situation centaurs are facing, are NOT an assault on your character choice and if they were then they are as much or more of an assault on human character choices thus rendering mitigation options for obstacles unavailable to humans as well.
Last edited by PhoneLobster on Tue Jan 11, 2011 12:35 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Post by Koumei »

Waitwaitwait. Is this debate/was the first debate about this* specifically that weird-shaped things like quadrupeds (example: Centaurs) can't work, or that all big things can't work? Or is it specifically Centaurs because "HAHAHA FUCK CRISSA" or something?

*The one that went into "sentient beings dying on battlefields are/are not more acceptable than horses dying on battlefields" and probably some kind of animal-fucking discussion.
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Post by tussock »

Yeh, I'm pretty sure that seeing as how all the dungeons made by kobolds, goblins, and gnomes handle medium PCs without a penalty (because bullshit like that is sometimes good for the game), you can just let the centaur go wherever and not sweat it.

Who knows, maybe he'll find 100 Orcs in a 30x30 room, and steal their million gp gem. Stop thinking so hard about your fantasy and enjoy the game already.


Of course, my game the kobolds live in 3' high tunnels full of deadfalls, and the PCs do have to shrink up to get around in comfort. So the centaur's fucked, he can stay out and look after the Druid's bear, the Paladin's mount, the wagons, bullocks, two score archers, and dozen heavy infantry, and protect them when the Kobolds make a break for it.
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Post by virgil »

The gnomish tyranny is almost precisely the opposite of that of the centaur's. Skipping the kobold warren is because of a majority of the party, while skipping the hobgoblin dungeon is because of one of the party. And you have to stretch to make that human-focused dungeon inaccessible to the gnome. Obviously this changes when the majority of the party make halflings, but unless they discuss it ahead of time as part of the plan, that one PC is not being a sociopath (or however K's describing centaur players) for having chosen a human.

As I and others have said, a large-sized biped is appreciably smaller and more maneuverable than a large size centaur. Also, the larger denizens are not required to maneuver throughout the entire dungeon with the ease of the adventuring party; obvious exception of it being built for them, which I'm to understand is relatively uncommon as the big creatures would have human-sized areas as servant corridors.

On a somewhat related note, in regards to trap doors and air ducts, can a horse crawl?

Of course, the impression I've gotten on the anti-centaur stance is one of magnitude. It's painfully disingenuous to equate the mobility of a tall & clumsy human in full-plate to that of a centaur; as one runs into trouble in less ways, less often, and requires less drastic means for circumvention. I don't know what the threshold of inconvenience is, though obviously it's vague. A 6'5" human is on the safe side, while an awakened black pudding is not.
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Post by virgil »

Koumei wrote:Waitwaitwait. Is this debate/was the first debate about this* specifically that weird-shaped things like quadrupeds (example: Centaurs) can't work, or that all big things can't work? Or is it specifically Centaurs because "HAHAHA FUCK CRISSA" or something?
I believe that the first debate about this was in a TNE (maybe Atayala?) thread concerning races, and Frank said he wasn't going to support PC races who couldn't have free reign in human towns, examples including centaurs and fire people (tiny fey too?). Some people disagreed with the centaur part, and it's since become a rallying point for PL as near as I can tell.

Personally I don't see the need to care so much about it, because all it really means is that Frank won't make rules/stats for centaur PCs (waah, waah?).
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Post by FatR »

kzt wrote: Firearms are HUGELY easier to train.
Just to derail the thread from Frank's stupid centaur derailment - no. This is utter bullshit. This is a commonly accepted bullshit, but still bullshit. The manuals on loading early-17th century arquebuses had the process split into several dozens of actions. Failure to perform many of them properly could potentially in misfire, your fuse going out and you being unable to fire, and so on. Complex evolutions a formation of arquebusiers needed to do on the battlefield added another level of complexity. Crossbows were much, much, much easier to use.

This argument is also bullshit for another reason - 15-to-early-17-century European warfare was waged exclusively by professional mercenaries (militias of nobles became thing of the past much earlier). And they were replaced by professional soldiers who served all their adult life too, just ones mostly kept in service by force, rather than decent payment. Militias or even swiftly trained recruits had almost no place on open battlefield (where they had, they had it due to martial traditions from pre-firearms age) until Frech Revolution wars, one and a half century later after firearms replaced everything else. And only secondary importance during sieges. The idea that advantage is simplicity of training was important is not not only wrong because in this case crossbows would have triumphed over firearms, and not only because early firearms were way too expensive to entrust them to medieval Joe Schmoes, it is entirely based on ignorance.
kzt wrote: However, ignoring the military and political social dynamics, the typical combat weapons used by pre-gunpowder armies were and remain damn lethal. All of them. The main limitation of a sword versus a guy with a pistol is that the pistol is effective at a lot longer range than the sword is effective.
Not if we're talking about pre-modern pistols. Even Napoleonic age cavalry officers recomended their men to fire pistols point-blank, because chances of hitting anything beyond several steps were rather slim.
And yet, even less accurate earlier pistols eliminated cavalry lances from European battlefields.
kzt wrote: So. no, if you are making being hit by a musket more deadly than being hit by a mace you are not simulating anything. You are just making shit up.
Again, it's amusing people try to reason away observable facts. [/img]
Last edited by FatR on Tue Jan 11, 2011 2:31 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by Username17 »

FatR wrote:Just to derail the thread from Frank's stupid centaur derailment
My derailment? Please. PhoneLobster and Prak are the ones flipping out about how they want me to write fucking Centaur rules. And also the ones derailing the fucking thread.

It is absolutely impossible for PhoneLobster to be civil to absolutely anyone once anyone at all has mentioned the word "centaur". Honestly, it's best to put him on ignore for several weeks every time someone sets him off.

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Post by tzor »

OK I think we need to step back and generalize for a moment. In any fantasy world there is the generally accepted norm. (Normally Norm hangs out at a certain bar that will not be named and pontificates on life, the universe and everything, but he is always generally accepted.) Anything that significantly deviates from that generally accepted norm is going to be problematic and will require some method to overcome those problems.

Sea creatures in a desert setting … we are going to have problems.
Frost creatures in the land of lava … we are going to have problems.
Large creatures in confined spaces … we are going to have problems.
Tiny creatures in a campaign setting of giants … we are going to have problems.

In a campaign world where centaurs are common, where they build whole towns, dungeons, and so forth, centaur characters would have no problems. But there are, in general, no published campaign worlds that are centaur centric.

Fantasy does not mean chaos. It needs common themes, common expectations. When things drift from the common parameters of the campaign world’s expected fantasy … we are going to have problems.
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Post by CatharzGodfoot »

Yeah, that pretty much sums it up.
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Post by Darth Rabbitt »

Starmaker wrote: This is why being told to play a crossdressing dude when you want to play a woman (and vice versa) is offensive.
No one's told me to do that, but strangely enough, I want to do that now.

Sounds fun to roleplay.

Go figure.
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Post by K »

I think I can just consider this argument won. No one can give me one good reason to deal with the hassle of a centaur other than "cuz I want it." With no positives and lots of negatives, the argument is done.

And for the record, the argument about mitigation is laughable on first principles. Mitigation methods are meaningless considering that they are not going to be used by your average lazy player, are going to fail mid-adventure, cost too much, or are still going to be ineffective. In an ideal world, you'd always have the right mitigation tool but in the real world you are the asshole who brought a centaur to the game and made everyone regret it.

All the evidence points to centaurs being terrible for fantasy RPGs where adventurers aren't on featureless plains. I guess you could have a Prairie War! RPG for the centaur lovers, but I know I'm not going to write it or play it.
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Post by PhoneLobster »

tussock wrote:Of course, my game the kobolds live in 3' high tunnels full of deadfalls, and the PCs do have to shrink up to get around in comfort. So the centaur's fucked,
Oh look. Humans using prefectly reasonable mitigation that is the exact same mitigation the centaur could and should use in that situation... but isn't allowed to because centaurs aren't allowed inside.

And K... you lost this argument when you said no Large sized things at all should ever be PCs.

Because that position is unacceptable and you know it.
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Post by K »

PhoneLobster wrote:
tussock wrote:Of course, my game the kobolds live in 3' high tunnels full of deadfalls, and the PCs do have to shrink up to get around in comfort. So the centaur's fucked,
Oh look. Humans using prefectly reasonable mitigation that is the exact same mitigation the centaur could and should use in that situation... but isn't allowed to because centaurs aren't allowed inside.

And K... you lost this argument when you said no Large sized things at all should ever be PCs.

Because that position is unacceptable and you know it.
Actually, I don't. It's perfectly acceptable design philosophy to only let in things that don't cause a lot of trouble for DMs or fellow players. That you can't accept that is either sad or pathetic.... maybe both.
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Post by Username17 »

I still don't understand why accepting a creature that is 8'x4'x2' automatically means that I have to accept a creature that is 8'x8'x3'. The one is clearly and demonstrably much smaller than the other.

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Post by fectin »

...And if you take that, you also have to take my character concept: Mr. Ed von Blahhh. He was a heartless centaur thief working who was branded with a Mark of Justice to stay out of cities. While crossing the plains, he was bitten by a vampire, and now he's just trying to make his way in a world where he doesn't belong.

Also, he pathologically hates everyone.

That's not a problem, right?
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Post by Nebuchadnezzar »

Since the only thing worse than having a strong opinion on something trivial like this is sifting through multiple pages of invective on the subject I ask if the problem people seem to have with centaurs extends to onocentaurs, aqrabuamelu, or silly product identity shit like wemics and bauriar. With many of these types presumably having 60+vertebrae excluding the tail it doesn't seem beyond the pale to let them be flexible enough to touch their front paws/hooves/chelae while still being medium sized, and while climbing a rope might be out for a couple of these, a ladder at or near vertical seems feasible enough.

Not that it fucking matters. If I'm playing the kind of game where players are quadrupeds easy access to spider climb isn't going to flip my shit.
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Post by shadzar »

Yes i mentioned wemics as they were a part of AD&D Player's Options as also not making sense as a player character.

You dont take the pack mule down into the dungeon because it isnt a place where that body-type is likely to be of any good, not because it cant fight.

Should you have naga PCs since they are more able to fit into places than most standard PC races could? Not really just because it CAN, because it isnt really what the world was built on.

Again, if you build a world based on mass population of quadrupeds, then a centaur PC isnt likely to be a problem, but in a world populated mostly by bipeds, then the world isnt going to work very well, or be a enjoyable place for the centaur/quadruped PCs to travel in.

Suspension of disbelief plays a large part in it all. Talking of fiction Prak has read that is where dragons are screwed, fiction I have read always has centaurs having problems in pretty much ALL non-centaur built area, because it just simply wasnt made for them, and the "horse" type or working animals are not meant to be indoors. Society doesnt want them inside, so places were built for them otherwise.

You have ot build the game specifically for centaur PCs in such that society has a reason to have structures with centaur accessibility.
Play the game, not the rules.
Swordslinger wrote:Or fuck it... I'm just going to get weapon specialization in my cock and whip people to death with it. Given all the enemies are total pussies, it seems like the appropriate thing to do.
Lewis Black wrote:If the people of New Zealand want to be part of our world, I believe they should hop off their islands, and push 'em closer.
good read (Note to self Maxus sucks a barrel of cocks.)
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