Reading the Constitution

Mundane & Pointless Stuff I Must Share: The Off Topic Forum

Moderator: Moderators

User avatar
tzor
Prince
Posts: 4266
Joined: Fri Mar 07, 2008 7:54 pm

Post by tzor »

PhoneLobster wrote:HOW FUCKING STUPID ARE YOU?
I don't know.

HOW FUCKING BLIND ARE YOU?

Why do we need to shout in caps?

The goals of the radicals is to inject shariah law into the court system, the moderates generally don't care, but they would be happy to see it happen. The hyper secular political correctness isn't set up to deal with religious people who want to turn the system into something else.

So little by little it will get worse and worse. More and more shariah law will slip in. it is only a matter of time. Unless of course you can instill in them a sense of nationalism to what you already have. It's one of the big differences between the US and the UK, more muslims in the US identify themselves as Americans while in the UK, they still feel apart from being British.
Last edited by tzor on Thu Jan 20, 2011 2:50 am, edited 1 time in total.
User avatar
angelfromanotherpin
Overlord
Posts: 9745
Joined: Fri Mar 07, 2008 7:54 pm

Post by angelfromanotherpin »

Are there any British courts basing rulings on Sharia? Have there ever been? Is there any evidence to suggest they might do so in the future?

If you can't dig up a yes answer to any of those things, then you don't have a complaint; you have a fantasy. Why you chose to populate it with something other than honey-dipped lesbians is beyond me.
User avatar
CatharzGodfoot
King
Posts: 5668
Joined: Fri Mar 07, 2008 7:54 pm
Location: North Carolina

Post by CatharzGodfoot »

tzor wrote:More and more shariah law will slip in.
Wow, so what are the new shariah laws in the UK?
The law in its majestic equality forbids the rich as well as the poor from stealing bread, begging and sleeping under bridges.
-Anatole France

Mount Flamethrower on rear
Drive in reverse
Win Game.

-Josh Kablack

PhoneLobster
King
Posts: 6403
Joined: Fri Mar 07, 2008 7:54 pm

Post by PhoneLobster »

Aside from the "abosultely no evidence of his utter paranoid fantasy" angle...

...if political correctness magically grants religious fundamentalists super powers to gradually dominate a nation's laws...

...how come it doesnt' work for Tzor?

You are in a nation far more open to corruption of the political process due to your crumbling archaic governmental structure, you have far wealthier far more ingrained religious fundamentalist assholes that have had the opportunity to "exploit" this "religious correctness" for far longer.

And yet your Christian nut bags can't even overturn your pet little Roe vs Wade nemesis.

So colour me unimpressed with the power that "political correctness" apparently grants fundamentalist religious state nutbags.
Phonelobster's Self Proclaimed Greatest Hits Collection : (no really, they are awesome)
User avatar
tzor
Prince
Posts: 4266
Joined: Fri Mar 07, 2008 7:54 pm

Post by tzor »

angelfromanotherpin wrote:Are there any British courts basing rulings on Sharia? Have there ever been? Is there any evidence to suggest they might do so in the future?
Once I get Google 2.0, the ultra hyper linking search engine to everything I'll give you a link. I do recall hearing a radio report a year ago about allowing independent Sharia courts within England. It might have been NPR since I had not quit listening to them at the time.

You know I used to give $50 a month to those bastards? When I sent them a note to drop the payments they never even sent me an acknowledgement.
PhoneLobster
King
Posts: 6403
Joined: Fri Mar 07, 2008 7:54 pm

Post by PhoneLobster »

tzor wrote:I do recall hearing a radio report a year ago about allowing independent Sharia courts within England
... hook line and sinker...

You never get embarrassed about swallowing such utterly obvious shit whole Tzor? Never?
Phonelobster's Self Proclaimed Greatest Hits Collection : (no really, they are awesome)
User avatar
Blasted
Knight-Baron
Posts: 722
Joined: Wed May 26, 2010 5:41 am

Post by Blasted »

I do believe that they allow sharia law arbitration in civil law cases.
That is to say, you're bound by it if you want to be bound by it and they are limited by British law.
User avatar
Kaelik
ArchDemon of Rage
Posts: 14838
Joined: Fri Mar 07, 2008 7:54 pm

Post by Kaelik »

From someone who actually follows all the Muslims are trying to conquer the world stuff, and isn't a retard:

What happened:

Muslims started pushing for separate Sharia courts for Muslims only.

British government shut them down, because that's bullshit.

The End!
DSMatticus wrote:Kaelik gonna kaelik. Whatcha gonna do?
The U.S. isn't a democracy and if you think it is, you are a rube.

That's libertarians for you - anarchists who want police protection from their slaves.
Fuchs
Duke
Posts: 2446
Joined: Thu Oct 02, 2008 7:29 am
Location: Zürich

Post by Fuchs »

In Germany, sharia law is often applied in civil courts: Link (in german)
Username17
Serious Badass
Posts: 29894
Joined: Fri Mar 07, 2008 7:54 pm

Post by Username17 »

There was a celebrated case in Germany of a judge that denied a Moroccan woman's request for speedy divorce from a husband who beat her on the grounds that "you guys are from a Muslim country and you should be used to that sort of thing." But the country was rather outraged about that, and it wasn't the court using Sharia law, it was the court being racist against Arabs.

-Username17
Koumei
Serious Badass
Posts: 13882
Joined: Fri Mar 07, 2008 7:54 pm
Location: South Ausfailia

Post by Koumei »

Kaelik wrote:To claim knowledge of how that will turn out is in fact crazy talk.
You could look at it historically: let's pretend this is a real INVASION, like every other invasion of Britain (go ahead and count them). Now look at what happened when anyone else invaded and occupied: they became British.

So um... if Muslims travalled by the bajillion to the UK, chances are they would become British, even if they outnumbered everyone else combined and took power. One generation later, they would all become what we call the British. Complete with adopting the regional accents.
Count Arioch the 28th wrote:There is NOTHING better than lesbians. Lesbians make everything better.
User avatar
angelfromanotherpin
Overlord
Posts: 9745
Joined: Fri Mar 07, 2008 7:54 pm

Post by angelfromanotherpin »

Koumei wrote:You could look at it historically: let's pretend this is a real INVASION, like every other invasion of Britain (go ahead and count them). Now look at what happened when anyone else invaded and occupied: they became British.
What? Seriously, what? What did 'British' even mean when the Romans were wiping out the Belgae? For damn sure the Roman occupiers didn't go all Celtic.

And when the Normans conquered the Saxons, they *stayed culturally Norman,* importing their own laws and system of aristocracy. The upper class in England spoke French for the next four hundred years, and Old English ate so much French it became Middle English.

There are cultures which survived by absorbing their conquerors, like China and Egypt; but not Britain.
User avatar
tzor
Prince
Posts: 4266
Joined: Fri Mar 07, 2008 7:54 pm

Post by tzor »

Koumei wrote:You could look at it historically: let's pretend this is a real INVASION, like every other invasion of Britain (go ahead and count them). Now look at what happened when anyone else invaded and occupied: they became British.
There is a joke there somewhere, although I'm not sure where.

I mean wasn't the Kindgom originally the Anglo-Saxon "England" until it was invaded by the French speaking Normans? It then went on to crush the nearby Whales where the last of the Anglo-Saxon rullers remained. It took a hundred years later (which in turn is called the hundred year war) for the Anglo Saxons to even attempt to have a backbone of rebellion against the Norman Lords.
During the Hundred Years War an English identity began to develop in place of the previous division between the Norman Lords and their Anglo-Saxon subjects, in consequence of sustained hostility to the increasingly nationalist French, whose kings and other leaders (notably the charismatic Joan of Arc) used a developing sense of French identity to help draw people to their cause. The Anglo-Normans became separate from their cousins, who held lands mainly in France, who mocked the former for their archaic and bastardised spoken French. English also became the language of the law courts during this period.
I think the opposite happened. The land and even the languuage of Chaucer was, alas, no more.

But that is not the point. Here we have two very similiar cultures, with minor differences in language, sharing more or less the same religion. (Note this is well before the Reformation.)

What if you have a completely different culture and a completely different religion? One that not only does not want anything to do with the culture and religion that is currently in place, but who are determined by divine will to impose their own viewpoints on others? They look upon you as unworthy infidels doomed to eternal damnation?
User avatar
angelfromanotherpin
Overlord
Posts: 9745
Joined: Fri Mar 07, 2008 7:54 pm

Post by angelfromanotherpin »

tzor wrote:What if you have a completely different culture and a completely different religion? One that not only does not want anything to do with the culture and religion that is currently in place, but who are determined by divine will to impose their own viewpoints on others? They look upon you as unworthy infidels doomed to eternal damnation?
Comparing the impact of peaceful immigrants with the impact of William the Conqueror is just laughable. You cannot say, 'hey, a group of trained murderers who conquered the country with fire and sword, killed off the upper class and installed their cronies, that changed the culture hardcore. These unarmed restaurant-owning civilians have an even more different culture; what might they do?' and expect anyone to take you seriously.

Christian extremists are just as aggressive and patronizing as Muslim extremists, have a lot more influence, and they still can't stop people from flushing blastocysts or get prayer in public schools. They're losing ground every year on gay rights.

So if extremists as similar in culture and religion as the mainstream can't push their agenda successfully, what chance do less familiar, less sympathetic, less entrenched, less influential extremists have?

Once again: You have presented no evidence to base your paranoia on. It is and has been 100% speculation.
User avatar
fbmf
The Great Fence Builder
Posts: 2590
Joined: Fri Mar 07, 2008 7:54 pm

Post by fbmf »

Tangent to topic...I was discussing with a friend the other day that a lot of Middle Eastern countries:

(A) Have no separation of church and state, and
(B) Like it that way (at least in theory)

...so that, at least to them, it is impossible to discuss their politics WITHOUT insulting their religion. This means that the instant you start criticizing their politics, you are labeled a dirty xenophobic racist Nazi skin-head because you are insulting The Prophet.

That's frustrating.

Game On,
fbmf
User avatar
tzor
Prince
Posts: 4266
Joined: Fri Mar 07, 2008 7:54 pm

Post by tzor »

angelfromanotherpin wrote:Comparing the impact of peaceful immigrants with the impact of William the Conqueror is just laughable.
First of all, they are not all "peaceful immigrants."

Second of all, Koumei stated, "You could look at it historically: let's pretend this is a real INVASION ..." and I went from there.
User avatar
Count Arioch the 28th
King
Posts: 6172
Joined: Fri Mar 07, 2008 7:54 pm

Post by Count Arioch the 28th »

tzor wrote:What if you have a completely different culture and a completely different religion? One that not only does not want anything to do with the culture and religion that is currently in place, but who are determined by divine will to impose their own viewpoints on others? They look upon you as unworthy infidels doomed to eternal damnation?

Those words describe Christians as well. Does the bible not say anyone that doesn't accept Jesus as their personal Lord and savior is doomed to eternal torment? I'm pretty sure that's one of the big ones.
In this moment, I am Ur-phoric. Not because of any phony god’s blessing. But because, I am enlightened by my int score.
User avatar
tzor
Prince
Posts: 4266
Joined: Fri Mar 07, 2008 7:54 pm

Post by tzor »

The symetry argument fails because there is no symetry

How many Islamic places of worship are burned down or bombed in Christian nations by mobs of angry Christians?

How many Moslems are currently under death sentences for Blasphemy against Christianity?

How many politicians have been assassinated because they were considering pardoning the people foundguilty of the above?

The answer ... NONE. Christianity, at least at present, is pretty doscile.

This is not true for Islam, at least, not presently.
User avatar
angelfromanotherpin
Overlord
Posts: 9745
Joined: Fri Mar 07, 2008 7:54 pm

Post by angelfromanotherpin »

Tzor, when you were going on your pro-life rants, you were insulting science, reason, legal precedent, my intelligence, and indirectly me personally; and yet I still preferred that to this because abortions are at the very least things that exist. They are specific measurable events in space-time that human activity can interact with, is what I'm saying.

This 'creeping sharia law' thing is just straight-up imaginary. Your time spent worrying and ranting about it would be as profitably spent searching your sock drawer for the 'booger-man.'
User avatar
Kaelik
ArchDemon of Rage
Posts: 14838
Joined: Fri Mar 07, 2008 7:54 pm

Post by Kaelik »

Tzor, why are you so dumb?

I mean, first of all, there are entire muslim countries where none of those things has ever happened proving that it is possible. Second, there aren't any christian countries at all, there are secular countries that happen to have a majority of christians, or who pay lip service to christianity in some rituals.

You are claiming that it is impossible for British muslims to become secular. You are basing this on the claim that majority muslim nations are not secular.

You are just as wrong as someone 600 years ago claiming that it is impossible for Britain or France or Germany to become a secular country, because at that time there were no existing secular countries that were predominately christian.

That you further compound that by claiming that actual secular countries will magically stop being secular through what? revolt? just adds crazy icing to the crazy cake.
Last edited by Kaelik on Thu Jan 20, 2011 6:13 pm, edited 1 time in total.
DSMatticus wrote:Kaelik gonna kaelik. Whatcha gonna do?
The U.S. isn't a democracy and if you think it is, you are a rube.

That's libertarians for you - anarchists who want police protection from their slaves.
Username17
Serious Badass
Posts: 29894
Joined: Fri Mar 07, 2008 7:54 pm

Post by Username17 »

Tzor wrote:How many Islamic places of worship are burned down or bombed in Christian nations by mobs of angry Christians?
Well, that's a good question. The answer is not, as you claim, "none". Even a casual search of the internet shows that mosques are targeted by Christian arsonists fairly frequently. Mosques are of course, also frequently targeted by Jews, Hindus, and even other Muslims with slightly different hats.

I genuinely don't know how many of the mosques that get burned down each year are burned down by religious fanatics who happen to be Christians. But it's a lot.

-Username17
sabs
Duke
Posts: 2347
Joined: Wed Dec 29, 2010 8:01 pm
Location: Delaware

Post by sabs »

Kaelik wrote:Tzor, why are you so dumb?

I mean, first of all, there are entire muslim countries where none of those things has ever happened proving that it is possible. Second, there aren't any christian countries at all, there are secular countries that happen to have a majority of christians, or who pay lip service to christianity in some rituals.
That is completely not true.

There are several Countries that have a Christian State Religion:
Denmark
Iceland
Norway
England
Costa Rica
Liechtenstein
Malta
Monaco
Vatican City (Holy See)
Greece
Finland

The following give a special recognition to Catholicism in their constitution
Andorra
Argentina
Dominican Republic
El Salvador
Italy
Indonesia
Haiti
Honduras
Paraguay
Peru
Philippines
Poland
Portugal
Slovakia
Spain
Switzerland

So, while yes.. he IS smoking the Crazy Weed. Don't assume that there are no Christian Countries.
Username17
Serious Badass
Posts: 29894
Joined: Fri Mar 07, 2008 7:54 pm

Post by Username17 »

There are also countries like Ireland. Ireland's constitution requires it to have a law on the books to punish Blasphemy. It doesn't specify catholicism in that passage, but of course it does give special protection to Catholicism. Seriously, you don't think the courts hear abut blasphemy against Islam whenever someone claims that God had a Son?

-Username17
User avatar
Sir Neil
Knight-Baron
Posts: 552
Joined: Fri Mar 07, 2008 7:54 pm
Location: Land of the Free, Home of the Brave

Post by Sir Neil »

fbmf wrote:That's frustrating.
Another idea I read (maybe on the slacktivist?) was an alternate rationale for intrareligious Islamic armed conflict. They can't just live and let live, because they don't have freedom of religion. Sunnis don't fight Shia to promote Sunni Islam so much as they fight for the right to not be Shia. Gross overgeneralizations aside, this seems like it could be a productive way to approach their conflicts.
User avatar
tzor
Prince
Posts: 4266
Joined: Fri Mar 07, 2008 7:54 pm

Post by tzor »

Kaelik wrote:I mean, first of all, there are entire muslim countries where none of those things has ever happened proving that it is possible. Second, there aren't any christian countries at all, there are secular countries that happen to have a majority of christians, or who pay lip service to christianity in some rituals.
Can you name one?

By the way, I was being equally "loose" in my definition. Egypt has had a number of attacks against Christians recently and is generally secular.
Fatal Attack On Christians in Egypt wrote:An off-duty policeman boarded a train in southern Egypt and opened fire on Tuesday, killing a 71-year-old Christian man and wounding five others, including the victim's wife and three other women, the Interior Ministry said in a statement.

All of the victims are Christian, it said.

...


Shooting attacks against Christians occasionally take place in Egypt's impoverished south. In January 2010, gunmen opened fire on worshippers leaving a Coptic Christmas Eve church service in southern Egypt, killing six Christians and a Muslim guard.
If not shooting, how about BOMBING
Christian Copts' anger escalates in wake of Egypt attacks wrote:The New Year's Day bombing of an Alexandria church that left 25 Christians dead and scores more injured has unleashed a wave of anger among Egypt's minority Copts directed at their government and Muslim countrymen.

...

Egypt's religious climate, some say, encourages the kinds of extremist groups that could carry out such attacks.

We are not talking about movements in the scale of Al Qaeda but other, smaller groups using violence against Copts do exist in Egypt," said Rafik Habib, a prominent Coptic intellectual. "We have many Muslims who have developed a way of hatred toward Copts and believe that Copts are empowered by the West to confront anything Muslim."
Post Reply