D&DNext: Playtest Review

[RobbyPants]

Shame they did not convert ability checks in the same way...that is a evolution downgrade.

What do you mean? In 2E, you rolled an ability check by rolling a d20 and trying to roll your stat or lower. So, if you had a 17 Str, you had an 85% chance of pulling off your check (regardless of the difficulty of the task*).

In 3E, you rolled a d20, added your Str mod (+3 if you had a 17) and compared it to the DC of the task. This approach is better in both that it could reflect the difficulty of the task you were trying to complete and it was consistent with all of the other major d20 rolls in the game (attacks, saves, and skill checks).


* Technically, 2E did try the horseshit approach of arbitrarily declaring hard tasks to be either an Open Doors check or a Bend Bars/Lift Gates check. These would result in different checks (the first d20 and the second d100) that would be less likely to succeed and based on the PC's Str score. So, now you technically had three "DCs", but that was really just an inelegant kludge to fix the problem of "all Str checks are equally difficult".

[shadzar]

it was more that the things were not as important as your character was just that strong no matter what because MOST things were the same. metal doors are metal doors, etc and nobody had titanium doors to bash down.

why would you need a difficulty rating for lifting something when you have the things weight and your weight allowance?

[RobbyPants]

it was more that the things were not as important as your character was just that strong no matter what because MOST things were the same. metal doors are metal doors, etc and nobody had titanium doors to bash down.

why would you need a difficulty rating for lifting something when you have the things weight and your weight allowance?

It would have made sense for them to put something in the rules like "don't ever roll Str checks, because Str is static". Of course, they didn't believe that, as evidenced by the Open Doors and Bend Bars/Lift Gates figures built right into the Strength table. They wanted people to roll dice to see if they could perform a task of strength. I remember, as a fledgling gamer, chuckling at the idea of the 18/56 Str fighter failing to open a door, and the 11 Str wizard succeeding. Of course, you'd have to declare post hoc that the fighter had done 90% of the work, and the wizard just popped it the rest of the way, but that's how the game worked. Yay Strength checks!

I did see a subsystem in one of those blue cover paperbacks that had a bunch of player options. I seem to remember them promoting the idea of rolling 1d4+X for Str competitions, where X would determine the difficulty. So, if X was 10, the idea was you'd roll an 11 - 14 always, meaning that the task was too hard for anyone with a 10 or less, an auto-succeed for anyone with a 14 or better, and up in the air for an 11 to 13.

The idea was cute in a lot of ways, but it was yet another fiddly subsystem tacked on after the fact.

[Cyberzombie]

Shame they did not convert ability checks in the same way...that is a evolution downgrade.

What do you mean? In 2E, you rolled an ability check by rolling a d20 and trying to roll your stat or lower. So, if you had a 17 Str, you had an 85% chance of pulling off your check (regardless of the difficulty of the task*).

In 3E, you rolled a d20, added your Str mod (+3 if you had a 17) and compared it to the DC of the task. This approach is better in both that it could reflect the difficulty of the task you were trying to complete and it was consistent with all of the other major d20 rolls in the game (attacks, saves, and skill checks).

The main advantage to 2E checks was it used the ability score, not the ability bonus, so you saw a bigger difference between an 18 strength and a 10 strength. In 3E, it's only a +4 which is pretty much trivial.

[CCarter]

I did see a subsystem in one of those blue cover paperbacks that had a bunch of player options. I seem to remember them promoting the idea of rolling 1d4+X for Str competitions, where X would determine the difficulty. So, if X was 10, the idea was you'd roll an 11 - 14 always, meaning that the task was too hard for anyone with a 10 or less, an auto-succeed for anyone with a 14 or better, and up in the air for an 11 to 13.

Yep that was Creative Campaigning.
Skills & Powers had a different system again to fix the same issue - it was the usual d20 under ability but gave characters with a score of 16+ an extra roll for each ability point over 15, with some tasks requiring multiple successful checks.

[hogarth]

It still doesn't explain why game designers can't seem to do the math in secret in the background.

The whole idea of "doing the math" is flawed to begin with because 99% of the time the goals that game designers set are vague things like "the game should be fun to play" and not mathematically provable things like "a level 97 blastomancer armed with the Sword of Mork should be able to defeat an owlbadger 78.3% of the time".

[PhoneLobster]

"a level 97 blastomancer armed with the Sword of Mork should be able to defeat an owlbadger 78.3% of the time".

...that seems like a remarkably low success rate for a level 97 anything with anything larger than a spork vs a badger with a beak.

[Dean]

Seriously Hogarth are you using houserules to modify owlbadgers in your games or something? By level 97 you should be annihilating them.

[Sashi]

It still doesn't explain why game designers can't seem to do the math in secret in the background.

The whole idea of "doing the math" is flawed to begin with because 99% of the time the goals that game designers set are vague things like "the game should be fun to play" and not mathematically provable things like "a level 97 blastomancer armed with the Sword of Mork should be able to defeat an owlbadger 78.3% of the time".

You know, in following this conversation I've completely come unglued from what "the math" even is. At this point it's pretty much a terrible meme that's infected my brain from discussions of 4E in which "the math just works" was code for "you're on a Red Queen bonus treadmill in which you have to accumulate higher and higher numbers to do the same thing at level 10 that you were doing at level 5"

Instead of "the math" we need to talk about design goals and how game mechanics support those design goals. It's honestly tough to say that "the math" is the problem with 4E (ignoring skill challenges). The problem with 4E is that the design goals were terrible. Because "the math just works" was literally code for "people generally feel the game is balanced between fighters and wizards around level 6, so we're going to give them a game where they're level 6 forever"

I think the problem we're seeing with DnDn is that the design goals don't exist. Considering the blather that the dev team goes on about, it appears the only concrete design guideline that exists is "players should roll a d20 to accomplish stuff".

[Ghremdal]

Shame they did not convert ability checks in the same way...that is a evolution downgrade.

What do you mean? In 2E, you rolled an ability check by rolling a d20 and trying to roll your stat or lower. So, if you had a 17 Str, you had an 85% chance of pulling off your check (regardless of the difficulty of the task*).

In 3E, you rolled a d20, added your Str mod (+3 if you had a 17) and compared it to the DC of the task. This approach is better in both that it could reflect the difficulty of the task you were trying to complete and it was consistent with all of the other major d20 rolls in the game (attacks, saves, and skill checks).

The main advantage to 2E checks was it used the ability score, not the ability bonus, so you saw a bigger difference between an 18 strength and a 10 strength. In 3E, it's only a +4 which is pretty much trivial.

Exactly. 3.x would be much better off if ability checks were 1d20+ability score vs a static DC; or to mimic 2e 1d20+ability score vs DC 20.

[Username17]

Eh. There are problems either way.

2e has the thing where two starting characters are diverged by almost the entire RNG. That may or may not be a problem, but it's certainly a fact. What is a problem is that nothing fucking scales. Hiding, Finding Traps, Reading Scrolls, and other "level dependent" actions can't even use the 2nd edition skill check system because there is absolutely no way in that system to have a task be for 6th level characters and not for 1st level characters. Or even to have it be for 15th level characters and not for 1st level characters. It's a pretty major failure, I think, if your system for ability checks cannot handle hiding.

The lack of difficulty scaling is frankly a big problem. Pretty much everything you are ever asked to do in-game is "make a Dexterity check", but the system lacks an elegant way to handle difficulty. You'd think it might be harder to jump from a moving platform than from a tree branch, but really both of them are "make a dexterity check". And in either case you're trying to roll under a number on your character sheet.

3e has its own problems of course, scaling went out of control, bonus inflation took over everything, and pretty soon the difference between a specialist and a non-specialist, or even between two specialists of different levels of min-maxing was more than the entire die. DCs became far too large - for fuck's sake they put a -20 penalty (literally the entire die roll) on attempting to remain hidden while shooting from cover! And they had to, because bonus inflation had gotten so extreme that characters could make those inflated DCs without even rolling the dice.

But the fact that 3e's skill system was fucked doesn't make 2e's system perfect. 2e handles non-scaling tasks like diplomacy better than 3e does. But... that's about it. The fact that scaling tasks even exist is a serious conceptual problem for 2e's task resolution system. It's why they end up with so many kludge systems like percentile Thief Abilities and shit.

-Username17

[Voss]

I think the problem we're seeing with DnDn is that the design goals don't exist. Considering the blather that the dev team goes on about, it appears the only concrete design guideline that exists is "players should roll a d20 to accomplish stuff".

You forgot 'it should feel like D&D.'
All forms of D&D. In every format. Ever. Simultaneously.

And I'm not even joking- the d20 bit is a subset of the 'feels like D&D' goal, which has been openly stated repeatedly, and is a major focus of the playtest surveys. The fact that I've been asked if, on a scale of 1 to 5, the D&D Next wizard feels like a D&D wizard offends me greatly. And not just because they're stupid enough to ask for quantitative measurement of purely subjective bullshit.

[hogarth]

Since Frank is talking about 2E Diplomacy again, it's worth refreshing everyone's memory on what the 2E rules actually say:

If the player characters charge a band of randomly encountered orcs with weapons drawn, the DM can easily say, "They snarl and leap to the defense!" Selection of the reaction based on the situation ensures rational behavior and avoids the illogical results that random die rolls can often give.

I.e., 2E Diplomacy is "DM fiat first, everything else second".

You'd think it might be harder to jump from a moving platform than from a tree branch, but really both of them are "make a dexterity check". And in either case you're trying to roll under a number on your character sheet.

Jumping is a bad example because it's one of the few 2E skill checks that actually scales a bit.

At any rate, the real innovation of 3E's skill system is not scaling DCs, it's scaling DCs plus concrete examples of what those DCs mean. The concrete examples were the giant leap forward; before that, you just had vague categories like "easy" and "hard" which are meaningless without saying exactly which tasks are easy and which tasks are hard.

[Username17]

hogarth, stop being a whiny bitch. The reaction test rules exist, and the adventures and supplementary rules expect you to use them. While the 2nd edition rules are quick and happy to jump up and tell you that the DM can change them at a whim, that is no more special than the literally dozens of times the second edition rules make that caveat about every other fucking rule in the system. I mean for fuck's sake, we are talking about the proficiencies rules, which not only have an "(Optional)" on the entire chapter, but the PHB hastens to tell you that the fucking things are "optional" three times before actually telling you what they do. That's not an exaggeration, it seriously does that:

Weapon proficiencies are tournamentlevel rules, optional in regular play, and nonweapon proficiencies are completely optional.
...
Initial Nonweapon Proficiencies is the number of nonweapon proficiency slots that character has at 1st level. Even if you are playing with weapon proficiencies, nonweapon proficiencies are optional.
...
There are three different ways to do this: using what you know, using secondary skills, and using nonweapon proficiencies. Each of these is optional, but each increases the amount of detail that rounds out your character.

Constantly felating the DM and reminding the reader that the DM could indeed change or not use any rule in the book was simply the writing style of 2nd edition. My impression was that they did a lot of playtesting and game observation in the early and mid eighties, realized that their system didn't work as written, but also realized that players managed to keep the game going anyway through copious application of mind caulk. Zeb Cook decided that rather than make actually functional rules, he would simply remind the reader to put mind caulk on things every couple of pages whenever he was talking about rules rather than spitting out lists of content.

Finding a quote where it says the DM could overrule any particular rule means jack shit in the context of 2nd edition rules. I double dog dare you to find a 2nd edition supplement that was written under the assumption that Non-Weapon Proficiencies were not in use. Double. Dog. Dare.

Jumping is a bad example because it's one of the few 2E skill checks that actually scales a bit.

Jumping distance scales slightly by level. Jumping accuracy (what 3e players would call "balance" or "tumble", and Pathfinder players would call "acrobatics") is always just an undefined Dexterity check.

-Username17

[NineInchNall]

It still doesn't explain why game designers can't seem to do the math in secret in the background.

The whole idea of "doing the math" is flawed to begin with because 99% of the time the goals that game designers set are vague things like "the game should be fun to play" and not mathematically provable things like "a level 97 blastomancer armed with the Sword of Mork should be able to defeat an owlbadger 78.3% of the time".

The thing is that people say shit like that is outside the realm of math. No, really.

[Cyberzombie]

I double dog dare you to find a 2nd edition supplement that was written under the assumption that Non-Weapon Proficiencies were not in use. Double. Dog. Dare.

I really can't remember many 2E adventures that used NWPs much, except mentioning them as a minor bonus, like mountaineering for climbing a wall. 2E skill use was almost always either a rogue skill or an ability check. Modules as far as I recall hardly ever asked for a NWP check. I hardly ever even remember people making checks on their NWPs or even caring that they had them. In retrospect, I could have never used NWPs and nobody would have cared.

The thing with NWPs... they were mostly useless. They charged you multiple NWP slots for something like weaponsmith, even though you couldn't make magic items with it or do anything that remotely mattered as far as the game was concerned. Maybe you picked up something like swimming that was useful once or twice in a campaign, but that was about it.

[hogarth]

hogarth, stop being a whiny bitch.

Frank, I'm not quoting the rules to hurt your butt, so you can relax your sphincter. I'm quoting the rules for the benefit of people who have never played 2E before to get more of the full picture.

[Username17]

hogarth, stop being a whiny bitch.

Frank, I'm not quoting the rules to hurt your butt, so you can relax your sphincter. I'm quoting the rules for the benefit of people who have never played 2E before to get more of the full picture.

...and that's why you're quoting weasel words deceptively out of context? Get fucked.

-Username17

[shadzar]

It's a pretty major failure, I think, if your system for ability checks cannot handle hiding.

class-based system, not feat-based system. you don't get to use rogue class skills if you are not a rogue, you must use the general skill without the class-based bonuses granted to the specific class.

I double dog dare you to find a 2nd edition supplement that was written under the assumption that Non-Weapon Proficiencies were not in use. Double. Dog. Dare.

you wont because 2nd still followed Mentzers RPGA concept that D&D was made for the home player, but written for the convention/tournament player. cons brought in money and the rules needed to be there for them, while people at home could do what they damn well pleased because once Lorraine had her cut of your money, she didnt give 2 fucks about what you did with the books.

adventures and splats were all for TSR games. the houserule and homebrew worlds were for home games. TSR wasnt going to tailor its game to each individual home, like WotC tries to force each individual home to play Mike Mearls and James Wyatt's way. while LW and the Blumes were fucking morons, the designers still had some common sense left.

[Username17]

class-based system, not feat-based system. you don't get to use rogue class skills if you are not a rogue, you must use the general skill without the class-based bonuses granted to the specific class.

OK, you get a Lol Wut Pear.

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[/img]

Seriously, that thing you just said is complete word salad. 2nd Edition doesn't have consistent rules for sneaking. And that is inexcusable.

Seriously, imagine a situation where a Wizard with a Dex of 15 is sneaking up on a sleeping Ogre, hoping to slit its throat. What do you do to determine if the Wizard succeeds at this task? Now imagine a situation where a Thief with a Dexterity of 16 and a Move Silently of 35% attempts to sneak up on a sleeping Ogre in an otherwise identical situation. What do you do to determine if he succeeds or fails?

-Username17

[shadzar]

Seriously, imagine a situation where a Wizard with a Dex of 15 is sneaking up on a sleeping Ogre, hoping to slit its throat. What do you do to determine if the Wizard succeeds at this task? Now imagine a situation where a Thief with a Dexterity of 16 and a Move Silently of 35% attempts to sneak up on a sleeping Ogre in an otherwise identical situation. What do you do to determine if he succeeds or fails?

-Username17

there you go again with the meta shit and base64 encoding rather than just posting a link to an image to hotlink too and possibly injecting malicious code into the forum and possibly exploiting any JPEG vulnerabilities in people's unupdated browsers.

don't post images as hex or hash code, just post a link!

a wizard sneaking up on anyone is lucky if he doesnt slit his own throat with a leaf from a bush to be serious with only 4 hp...if you want to be really serious.

again the class-based system set some things up for specific classes. this is what MANY people dont understand. some tasks are better for some classes than others. not the nonsense present in 4th edition, but just rudimentary tasks. the hobbit halfing rogue was your sneaker. a wizard sneaking up on anyone is asking to die for obvious reasons. that isnt his job. that is why a rogue is hired for the party, or some expendable henchmen. also the sheer number of spells a wizard has there is little reason it couldnt get close to an ogre. you didnt define what level the wizard is. from 1st level the wizard can cast sleep.

the classes are different and use different tools to perform similar tasks. arent you even one of the people that keep saying how a wizard can easily steal the thief's job because he can do everything BETTER than the thief?

the game is open, but only within the class-based design. the wizard isnt intended to be a thief. but this goes all back to what i say that the thief class has no place since EVERYONE is a fucking thief. Bilbo Baggins didn't need a special class made for D&D. thief assassin, bard, etc are all stupid names given to classes that ANY of the 3 core classes should be able to decide if and when to be one.

you were talking about NWPs and the entire chapter being optional, and expect in most published material, did you note that those NWPs were grouped by class, and there was additional costs to NWPs outside of your own class, and the general category? the reason is they are broken down, like every other ability and function, by the specific classes.

asking why doesnt or how does a wizard in D&D sneak around like a thief is like asking why the quartermaster isnt in the crow's nest on a pirate ship. because that is NOT his place to be, that is the duty of someone else. when you wish to leave those classes, then as you stated earlier, you are own your own and at the mercy of the concepts the DM has, or those your group can come up with. Welcome to AD&D the game where it is only limited by YOUR imagination.

in tournaments, the wizard wouldnt sneak at all. remember all those "rules" and published adventures and splat was made first and foremost for use with tournament play, and then the home game was free to do what the hell ever it wanted. it is just that 2nd is a hell of a lot more loose and able to do what you want with the home game than being bound by WBL/feats and treasure parcels/powers of the WotC editions. 2nd was easier to add or remove things from than later incarnations of the name of the game.

[Username17]

there you go again with the meta shit and base64 encoding rather than just posting a link to an image to hotlink too and possibly injecting malicious code into the forum and possibly exploiting any JPEG vulnerabilities in people's unupdated browsers.

don't post images as hex or hash code, just post a link!

Like most of the time, your opinions are factually wrong. Linking not only parasitizes other peoples' bandwidths, but it opens you up to link rot and malicious redirects that you have no control over. Linking is not only rude, it's dangerous. Always post the hex code if you have it.

again the class-based system set some things up for specific classes. this is what MANY people dont understand. some tasks are better for some classes than others. not the nonsense present in 4th edition, but just rudimentary tasks. the hobbit halfing rogue was your sneaker. a wizard sneaking up on anyone is asking to die for obvious reasons. that isnt his job. that is why a rogue is hired for the party, or some expendable henchmen. also the sheer number of spells a wizard has there is little reason it couldnt get close to an ogre. you didnt define what level the wizard is. from 1st level the wizard can cast sleep.

No. You don't get to hide behind this "class based system" garbage. Sneaking up on a sleeping person and slitting their throat is explicitly something anyone can do. Indeed, as you've noted the Wizard may in fact put people to sleep for this very purpose. So hop to it and explain how it's done. In the rules. Of your favorite edition.

Wizard with 15 Dex.
Thief with 16 Dex and a Move Silently Ability of 35%.

This is not a complicated case. Explain how it works, or concede that my characterization of it "not working" is in fact completely accurate.

-Username17

[RadiantPhoenix]

Seriously, imagine a situation where a Wizard with a Dex of 15 is sneaking up on a sleeping Ogre, hoping to slit its throat. What do you do to determine if the Wizard succeeds at this task? Now imagine a situation where a Thief with a Dexterity of 16 and a Move Silently of 35% attempts to sneak up on a sleeping Ogre in an otherwise identical situation. What do you do to determine if he succeeds or fails?

-Username17

in tournaments, the wizard wouldnt sneak at all.

So, the closest thing to a coherent answer I could pry out of shadzar's babbling is, "the wizard succeeds 0% of the time"

[Chamomile]

You know for a while here Shadzar was getting alarmingly close to coherency. Apparently it was just a brief period of lucidity before he receded back into total insanity, though.

[hogarth]

So hop to it and explain how it's done. In the rules. Of your favorite edition.

Wizard with 15 Dex.
Thief with 16 Dex and a Move Silently Ability of 35%.

Is the wizard an elf? Because then moving silently would use a completely different system altogether for no reason (-4 to an opponent's surprise roll).