More Threads that make us Laugh, Cry, or Both

[PhoneLobster]

Actually the all ripper army isn't horrific, it may sometimes win, and not with massive difficulty. But to argue that it is BETTER than an even slightly adulterated mix, and basically superior to everything ever is pretty questionable.

As far as corny themes go it functions remarkably well, probably better than similar alternatives like, oh I don't know, an all satyxis army or something.

But and here is the thing, the all ripper army was only part of the discussion I referred to. I think the name I was trying to recall was the "Defiler". You know, the stupidly over priced ripper with no RAT and a very short range weapon almost everyone thought was a spray template, only it wasn't.

It was the all defiler list that I found especially annoying as a good thing for a beginner to make a 500 to infinity army out of that I recall arguing most vociferously against and was trying to refer to above.

Maybe I'm just too down on the defiler, I'm often as not disinclined to shell out the extra points to go from a ripper to a, er, that other one that looks like a parrot.

(Did you know that in the "Remix" of the prime rulebook every unit got a little box of "tactical advice" used sometimes for tactical advice, sometimes for fluff and sometimes for "rules clarifications"? The Defiler remained utterly unchanged as the most expensive Cryx arch node and got a tactics box reminding everyone its weapon was NOT a spray template. Kind of a "screw you" tactical box.)

But anyway as little as I don't know, two years ago? There were still people comparing mechanics and tactics of things like that. Now... not so much.

[Koumei]

All I really know PP for is Iron Kingdoms. I liked the game of IK that I played in. I liked flipping through the books, too, and seeing the nice art (not that WotC are lacking in that, these days) and occasionally even reading the tl;dr of their write-ups on stuff.

That seems like a good spot to leave it at.

All Satyxis, though? Are we talking about the ladies with huge-like-XBox horns that go sailing around and picking fights with men to have sex with? The ones that sound like a bad fanfic/ego-boosting wet dream (similar to the "Women fight over me, yeah!" one)?

Not that I have complaints with such, this being *me*, but it seems a bit tacky to have included there, for what looked like such a classy product.

Are their minis at least any good?

[PhoneLobster]

Not that I have complaints with such, this being *me*, but it seems a bit tacky to have included there, for what looked like such a classy product.

Are their minis at least any good?

The old models for the satyxis were absolutely shocking, ugly scrawny little mutant thingies, with infamously, pointlessly, impossible to attach tiny tiny horns.

The new ones are... acceptable.

But really when it comes to female units in the game, their rules and models PP is, well, sorta stupid.

Most female models tend to be evil, and even then usually sadistic pain inflicting psychos. They almost always wear some sort of mask, helmet, blindfold or hood that partially or fully obscures their face, the biggest female model I can think of in the game is blindfolded AND bound in chains, their models are often just plain terrible quality wise and their rules include things like...

Well whatsherface Skar gets a weapon called her "Great Rack". And she likes swings it around and knocks things down with it and shit.

No really. Its apparently her goat like horns on her head. Because its a joke see, 'cause everyone refers to horns as racks. On things other than moose and shit, all the time, no really, REALLY. ITS A PERFECTLY INNOCENT PUN THAT IS NO WAY A TIRESOME AND CRUDE STRETCH, REALLY.

I was pretty much prepared to just groan and ignore it and remind myself to never get too social with the creators should I ever encounter them. But in the long run its become pretty clear that some of these guys just have the attitudes of mentally unbalanced teenagers. The bad sort. The kind that grow up to become British conservative MPs embroiled in outlandish fetishes and prostitution scandals.

[Koumei]

1200572246[/unixtime]]The kind that grow up to become British conservative MPs embroiled in outlandish fetishes and prostitution scandals.

What, all of them? ZING!

At any rate, I sort of meant "are PP's minis in general any good?" but it's disheartening to know I wouldn't be getting awesome females from them* if I was going to buy from them. Which I wasn't.

The rack thing is just painfully bad.

Also, the setting isn't grim and dark enough. I bet you're also going to try to convince me they don't build huge gothic cathedrals on top of every flat surface, including tanks and mechs, right? Isn't that the second principle of engineering? "Build a cathedral on it."

Very related:
http://kuksi.com/node/403[br]http://kuk ... br][br]*On that note, I wonder if there's anyone who can mass produce a female mini that isn't painfully ugly. The Sisters of Battle tend to look like men, causing me to use my precious Greenstuff altering them as best I can, and I can't seem to find any female guardsmen either in those boxes filled with Catachans and whatnot. The best GW made was the Callidus Assassin (no longer in stock anywhere) and Lelith Hespirax of the Dark Eldar.

[Username17]

The Cryx have War Witch Deneghra, who is pretty cool looking (although she is covered with spikes and has a mask). There is also an "epic war witch" model that is supposed to be her at a higher level that looks like it was sculpted by a large intestine. Here is a servicable paint job:



And Cygnar gets Captain Victoria Haley, who also looks pretty good. She is supposed to be Deneghra's lost good twin, and she is seen here in her epic phase after she became a pole dancer:


But yes, the overall sexism, prurience, and bad modeling is increasing over there. And I have no idea why. You'd think that as the company grew and became more well known they'd tone down their stff which was offensive and divisive. But no. They are apparently convinced that they need to stake out territory which is edgier than GW in order to keep market share.

I... don't think that is true.

Edit: Anyway. I briefly experiemented with the Privateer Press forum:
Here.
And Here.

-Username17

[CatharzGodfoot]

1200572861[/unixtime]]
Very related:
http://kuksi.com/node/403[br]http://kuk ... m/node/358

That's a pretty neat site.

[Bigode]

I liked PP until reading this. (Read the Character Guide and Monsternomicon)

But was it a change of authors, or a "business plan change"? And Frank, whaddya mean by bad modeling? And I feel somewhat obliged to register that you made a mountain outta a molehill in referring to your own passage there - there's about the same stupidity there than the WotC average ...

[PhoneLobster]

Though as heavily plagued with bad modelling as the entire skorne faction's infantry PP female models do have their high points.

The big one in the blindfold and chains is actually a pretty cool model.

I think its worth pointing out the version of Deneghra pictured above though is like the rare special limited edition alternate casting, the regular is... not quiet so good.

As for where to get good female mini's...

If you want to embrace poor modelling and sexist stuff, get Hassle Free As they have plenty of gratuitous busty nudity. And a remarkable range of stupid miscellania that everyone needs like cultists and some really cool Kids for any army

If you are looking for good sci fi armor ladies then I think
Urban War may be worth checking out.

But the best range of quality female (and general fantasy) models seems to be Reaper Miniatures

[Captain_Bleach]

1200579565[/unixtime]]

Edit: Anyway. I briefly experiemented with the Privateer Press forum:
Here.
And Here.

-Username17

Sorry Frank, but in the Warcaster Prestige Class thread, I've got to take the side of the forum regulars. The way you conduct yourself does not give positive first impressions, unless you are Denis Leary or someone who is a professional "jerk." So even if their mathematics are wrong, I can see why they took offense to your posts.

[Surgo]

Funny thing about being a jerk: it doesn't change whether your arguments are correct or not.

[Captain_Bleach]

1200605938[/unixtime]]Funny thing about being a jerk: it doesn't change whether your arguments are correct or not.

Good point, but there are two kinds of forums on the internet; being nicey-nicey and no-holds-barred. Due to human nature, being mean in a place where everybody is nice is going to get you ostracized, regardless of whether or not your arguments are correct. Besides, people there don't really know Frank Trollman, and thus their experiences and first impression will be tailored to the posts he made. First impressions matter a lot, in any situation.

[CatharzGodfoot]

1200606133[/unixtime]]

1200605938[/unixtime]]Funny thing about being a jerk: it doesn't change whether your arguments are correct or not.

Good point, but there are two kinds of forums on the internet; being nicey-nicey and no-holds-barred. Due to human nature, being mean in a place where everybody is nice is going to get you ostracized, regardless of whether or not your arguments are correct. Besides, people there don't really know Frank Trollman, and thus their experiences and first impression will be tailored to the posts he made. First impressions matter a lot, in any situation.

Yeah, but almost everyone in that thread was being an asshole. It seems to qualify as a 'circle of jerks' forum rather than a 'nicey-nicey' one.

[Captain_Bleach]

1200606957[/unixtime]]
Yeah, but almost everyone in that thread was being an asshole. It seems to qualify as a 'circle of jerks' forum rather than a 'nicey-nicey' one.

They're just nice to those who are nice back. Frank challenged their mathematic skills in game balance, and gamers are nothing if not arrogant, especially Internet gamers.

Really. People smarter than you and I have spent a lot of time looking at this problem.

Oh, this part implies that they do not know mechanics, and strikes a blow to their ego. Even those with room temperature IQs don't like being called dumb.

It's also because they believe in the GM to fix everything for them. The idea that the GM will "make everything better" is a sacred cow many gamers are not willing to give up, and Trollman's suggestions get him flamed.
This, combined with Trollman's Internet attitude, make people on edge ready to flame and troll him. It's a vicious cycle.

I'm not saying that I disagree with Frank's arguments, however.

[RandomCasualty]

1200612236[/unixtime]]
It's also because they believe in the GM to fix everything for them.

Yeah, that thinking just makes me roll my eyes when I see it.

They say: don't change the rules, just let the DM play the stealth nerf game to try to keep everyone balanced. And magically, things will just work out. They are of course the same people who believe that the rules must be strictly read as well to straight-jacket the DM. But somehow the DM is supposed to work a miracle and make it all balanced.

If I got in a game balance debate with one of those people in real life, I probably would hit them.

[Captain_Bleach]

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If I got in a game balance debate with one of those people in real life, I probably would hit them.

Hope you know a good lawyer to avoid getting sued if you carry it out.

[Crissa]

They also make their minis out of hard pewter. Which is great for durability and accuracy in production... And terrible for actually carrying, modding, or dropping. Trying to pin the parts together, which is essential because of the weight, is insanely long and complex. Don't even try to glue them together with superglue. Skip straight to epoxy.

The Iron Kingdoms would be great if they'd thought to actually make their own balanced classes instead of trying to merely add a few lesser classes (which then don't do anything) and maintaining the traditional D&D classes.

-Crissa

[cthulhu]

To be honest I was loling as soon as i saw the names I recognized as being morons from dumpshock.

I've only encountered d20 iron kingdoms. It always seemed to me that the steampunk classes where nice, and better than being a fighter, but still not in any way as good as being a wizard.

[SunTzuWarmaster]

I like the advertisement of "whoever wrote this adventure didn't bother to include how everyone lives" as a 'hook' rather than a 'plot hole'. That was cool.

"As for the geography and night life of other Cryxian cities, perhaps you should have your DM set up an adventure in one or more of them and find out for yourself"

Completely doesn't address that it isn't written, so the DM doesn't know any more than you do.

[Captain_Bleach]

And yet the whole Cryxian thing is nowhere near as big of a plot hole as the Wish Economy in low magic campaign settings. Seriously, unless there are no mid-high level primary spell casters, the world has no reason to exist as is. That is, unless you nerf casters to the point where nobody would play them, or have spell casters rewards be so much less in magnitude than the flaws they get for being spell casters. But this would mean class redesign on a large scale, and apparently no one, not even many game designers, seem willing to do this.

[Koumei]

Some of those minis, especially Reaper ones, are really cool. I particularly like this:
http://www.reapermini.com/gallery/3100s ... br][br]And the way that changing the name means it's no longer copyright infringement (both that and the "Hooked Hulk", an Umber Hulk by any other name). The battle nuns would also look good in a Sisters army, despite lacking a few hundred kilograms of mechanical armour.

But all of those sites have minis I would actually buy and field, or at least use in conversions.

I don't actually see what the big deal is with the Wish economy, any more. Either you use it, and things just run along smoothly and it doesn't interact with the lives of those in the gold or turnip economies, or you don't use it and everyone agrees to stick to the recommendations. Whatever. It's good that someone pointed out the fact that it exists, and how to handle it, but that doesn't make a huge impact on... much of anything.

But it does explain why nobles with millions of GP don't spend it all on magic gear to make them ultra-powerful, and why dragons can actually have beds of gold coins without unbalancing the game.

[Captain_Bleach]

I don't know, it just makes D&D seem less versatile than it actually is. Ever try running a Dark Sun/Kingdoms of Kalamar/etc. game and making magic equipment rare to the point that simple +1 weapons are the stuff of legend? How well did it go? Five Internet bucks says "poorly."
I don't like having a Sword and Sorcery game where equipment defines my character. I know that D&D is not the sort of game for this, but it still feels like I've been lied to.

[Captain_Bleach]

And when a portion of the fan base feels uncomfortable about the later of those types of social retards the PP website releases a cafe press product line mocking them (those who are concerned, not the pricks wanking on endlessly about how cool torture is).

Where can I find out about this flamewar? I tried finding out about the P.E.T.T. thing and the thread just made me more confused. Apparently, there was some flamewar, surrounding the torture of a fictitious animal, and forum-goers became up in arms. Where is the original thread?

[PhoneLobster]

Odd, I didn't have time earlier to link straight to the urban war minis I thought would be better sisters than the standard space marine transvestites, especially as the jump pack angel troops.

And now I go look I can't seem to find them there, maybe I'm thinking of some other mini company...

[Cielingcat]

1200622323[/unixtime]]The battle nuns would also look good in a Sisters army, despite lacking a few hundred kilograms of mechanical armour.

Then they are not GRIM AND DARK enough.

[PhoneLobster]

Apparently, there was some flamewar, surrounding the torture of a fictitious animal, and forum-goers became up in arms. Where is the original thread?

Try searching for "Agonizer".

And yes the contentious miniature's name was indeed an "Ant" short of "Antagonizer".

But here is a basically what happened.

The skorne faction is evil (ooooh, evil, booga booga) and all like militaristic with giant cool armoured monsters and lots of organized cool armoured troops.

And one day that factions upcoming release preview is the Agonizer.

Now I for one collected skorne (like many I loved the big beast models and loathed the incredibly sucky infantry models, but there was moding and substituting available to me...) and I like many customers was very disappointed. It seems the new part of our well oiled highly equipped militarily precise elite trained and above all COOL army...

Was a mewling icky tortured baby fetus mutant elephant thingo with no weapons, no military mojo, and lots of gashes with fluff that described it as being a critter horribly tortured pretty much just for the fun of it and then released to stumble around the battlefield making warbeasts feel sad.

Which really disappointed me simply because, well, I opted in for "Cool" and whatever else this thing was it was definitely "Uncool".

Also it was clearly described as a warbeast and yet came in with rules as a solo. Which meant A) It was one less war-beast for us B) It was one less solo for us (at a time when we still didn't have any elite warrior solos at all in our elite warrior army), and of course C) It was therefore stupid and confusingly categorized.

But much of the fan base, especially many Skorne players felt the uncool and determined that THEIR reason for feeling it was the mewling mutilated fetus look to the thing and all the salivating fluff text about horribly torturing baby animals.

Which is pretty reasonable, I can't say I disagree with them.

And they complained about this feeling of uncool that had dropped into their faction. A small portion of their limited available models now and forever would be this totally inconsistently uncool piece of crap, so fair enough.

A few were sufficiently peeved to say they may well quit collecting the faction, or even the game at all. Heck, though I made no such resolution myself it seems, and perhaps not coincidentally, that I haven't picked up any skorne since around about that same time.

But anyway the raving foaming masses that had broken their reality denying and insult flinging teeth as pretty much openly backed senseless attacked dogs on rules disputes like Sorcha being crazy good and Fury being totally zany. Dropped on them like a ton of bricks.

Pretty soon, in fact within about three posts on the first complaint about the Agonizer there were forum nuts doing the following...

1) Screaming for the critics to abandon the game and hand over their miniatures because they clearly were hateful unappreciative picky critical bastards.

2) Blaming all that is wrong with the world on animal rights activists and saying how much they would like to torture and kill them (and critics of the miniature).

3) Drooling over how much they loved the miniature and how much they hoped more would come like it (even though they did not collect skorne, an unpopular faction to start with, but BECAUSE OF THIS might start).

4) Declaring that critics were overreacting and inconsistent because it was buried somewhere in the faction fluff already and fuck, its a war game, and fuck its fictional and no you AREN'T allowed to not like an ugly model and a bunch of fluff wanking all over baby animal torture right in the middle of your shiny neatly organized armies of cool.

4a) And by the way didn't you know that Cryx is all about sexy undead NECROPHILIA! Woooh! Necrophilia rocks! Have some perspective you disgusting bleeding heart zombie hating bitches, NECROPHILIA!

Basically no one comprehended that people basically just didn't feel comfortable with this particularly blatant in your face inconsistency with the army and game that they invested in.

Probably because for most of the pro agonizers (who oddly tended not to be skorne collectors) it WAS just fiction and fluff, because they had not invested real hours painting real money's worth of real models and really put those models on the table having to really look someone in the eye and really say...

"Yes I really paid for this, painted this and play with these toys. And yes, that apparently is a horribly mutilated baby animal just behind that shield wall there. Would you like to hear the fluff about how much my other toys horribly torture it and how much terrible agony it is in?"

And anyway numerous many paged threads of this and several months later the critics of the model are just... gone. Even the people who sided with them just a little bit are just... gone (mostly).

Maybe they've been banned, as the hammer over there seems to fall more on critics than on people openly discussing their love of necrophilia and advocating murder of animal rights activists.

Most likely they just did what many originally, and as things went on more and more said they would, and just left.

And then PP released a product line supporting the views held by the pro necrophilia and animal rights activist murdering crowd.

I don't really get that crowd, maybe they are Republicans or something and its some sort of metaphorical way for them to fight against how everyone hates on Bush and Cheney for illegally torturing people.

Maybe they are just psychotic sociopaths.

But anyway, total mishandling by PP and their forum goons aside, I still think... This disgusting lump
Doesn't fit at all as a lonely solo among hoards of These infantry and These monsters

Especially if you don't use their bullshit poor contrast detail destroying colour scheme and instead paint them with my colour scheme...


With cool white and gold marbling.


It even screws my colour scheme. Damnit.
(Warning, no idea if the zany free image hosting I used for those last pictures is a nice place or not)