Puzzles

Roog · Post by **Roog** » Sun Dec 09, 2012 9:40 am

I like crosswords, especially cryptic crosswords.

If a GM told me that I would need to complete a cryptic crossword on my own time in order to allow research of a spell, I would feel uncomfortable about the request - even if I would have enjoyed the crossword under normal circumstances. I would probably want to talk out-of-game with the GM about what they were trying to achieve, and how they thought it would improve the game.

I would guess that most of the other people I game with would probably ignore the task and comment to each other behind the GM's back how weird the request was.

DSMatticus · Post by **DSMatticus** » Sun Dec 09, 2012 10:01 am

This thread is so bad. The only thing I can get out of it is that puzzles are badwrongfun and badwrongfun is rape.

Kaelik · Post by **Kaelik** » Sun Dec 09, 2012 3:49 pm

DSMatticus wrote:This thread is so bad. The only thing I can get out of it is that puzzles are badwrongfun and badwrongfun is rape.

Well then you can't read. Because the actual point is that other people don't like crosswords. It is not that they are not allowed to. It is that they don't. And when you make doing crosswords a mandatory prerequisite to playing the game, your players will do it, and they won't tell you they hate it, because they are polite and don't want to hurt your feelings, because you'll probably get but hurt and stop playing D&D.

Avoraciopoctules · Post by **Avoraciopoctules** » Sun Dec 09, 2012 4:39 pm

PhoneLobster wrote:I'm not sure I see where this current argument of yours is going here... other people concievably could hold the game hostage and inflict... something... on people... therefore riddles aren't bad?

What?

No, dummy. The argument over which people can hijack games is simply a tangent.

Puzzles can be bad. Puzzles can be terrible. But they don't have to be, and many games can benefit from mixing things up a bit. The Castlevania reimagining for Xbox 360 did it reasonably well. You could skip puzzle segments at any time, and all it cost was a bit of XP you just as easily get by redoing a fun boss fight.

DSMatticus wrote:This thread is so bad. The only thing I can get out of it is that puzzles are badwrongfun and badwrongfun is rape.

Hey, if you want to get things back on track, ignore the argument and make some puzzle suggestions. Here's one:

The PCs have been given some explosives to use blowing up a bridge before the Bad Guys can use it. They find the bridge schematics and/or a note about practical demolition partway there. With this, if they choose, they can figure out a way to destroy the bridge more efficiently, and keep more bombs for themselves.

RadiantPhoenix · Post by **RadiantPhoenix** » Sun Dec 09, 2012 5:51 pm

Look, one of the premises in the OP's post is that {he/she} tried math and logic puzzles and the other players found them enjoyable. Absent one of the players in the OP's game posting here, I don't think it's a point that will be refutable here.

While it is important to make sure that other people reading this thread for advice realize that a lot of people don't like such things, that doesn't mean we shouldn't still help people who do, because the problem with logic puzzles in D&D isn't that that itself is badwrongfun, it's that forcing players who don't want to do that is bad.

So, puzzles:

Your PCs stumble across a bookshelf, with the books aligned in a grid.
Each book has a sequence of runes on the back.
There are a lot less sequences of runes than books
Most of the books have some sort of trap in them (e.g., cursed, summon monster, etc)
For each sequence of runes, there is only one cursed book with that sequence of runes in each row or column.
No two adjacent (horizontally or vertically) books are untrapped
The untrapped books contain useful information (e.g., plot advancement, spells, maps to hidden treasure, magic baubles)

('Blacking out' a square means taking that book; the numbers represent which sequence of runes is on that book)

You are (asked for help by a Sorcerer, who is) building a tower.
{She wants/You want) to set up surveillance for the tower using magic sensors.
The floorplan is decided; the question is how to watch the whole space with a minimum number of sensors.
Certain structural components require exactly a certain number of magic sensors adjacent to them, because magic.

This dungeon is an ancient magical something that you want to turn {on/off}
Doing so involves a bunch of buttons in order.
Most of the instructions are worn away by time, but there are still arrows on each switch indicating which direction the next one is in.
Some switches still indicate what number they are in the order.
Once a sequence has been entered, the system gives an indication

(If you want to make it easier, make it give an indication as soon as you push the wrong button; it reduces the brute force solution from O(n!) to O(n^2))

More puzzles: http://www.chiark.greenend.org.uk/~sgta ... /#download

...You Lost Me · Post by **...You Lost Me** » Sun Dec 09, 2012 7:10 pm

I almost almost solve that last one... I keep missing the grey box.

Libertad · Post by **Libertad** » Sun Dec 09, 2012 7:20 pm

+1 to the first two paragraphs in RadiantPhoenix's post.

Other than that, I do have something to add.

I'm not really a fan of puzzles in D&D, because oftentimes a player will have a PC who is smarter than they are in-game. I think it's safe to say that none of us have equivalent to 18s in both Intelligence and Wisdom. So players are gonna ask if they can get easy hints, freebies, or roll a mental ability score check to bypass the puzzle because they're playing a genius.

There's also the problem of a player being a puzzle expert in real life, but he's playing a moronic Barbarian. So any attempts to answer the puzzle will need to find some convincing in-character behavior to arrive at thte conclusion without breaking suspension of disbelief.

Before you insert logic puzzles into the game, you need to find an answer to the above dilemmas. Do that, and you're golden.

Kaelik · Post by **Kaelik** » Sun Dec 09, 2012 7:26 pm

RadiantPhoenix wrote:Look, one of the premises in the OP's post is that {he/she} tried math and logic puzzles and the other players found them enjoyable. Absent one of the players in the OP's game posting here, I don't think it's a point that will be refutable here.

And one of the things that people have pointed out is that it is extremely motherfucking likely that one of the following is true:

1) They like it less than they like playing D&D.

2) They don't actually like it that much, and instead, the DM who forced it on them in the first place because he likes it so much is just mistaking their lack of outright protest for enjoyment.

Libertad · Post by **Libertad** » Sun Dec 09, 2012 7:29 pm

Kaelik wrote: And one of the things that people have pointed out is that it is extremely motherfucking likely that one of the following is true:

1) They like it less than they like playing D&D.

2) They don't actually like it that much, and instead, the DM who forced it on them in the first place because he likes it so much is just mistaking their lack of outright protest for enjoyment.

This is turning into a game of Internet Cold Reader. You're passing judgment on a guy who said his group likes puzzles, assuming the worst due to bad experiences from other groups.

Or are you arguing just to argue?

Kaelik · Post by **Kaelik** » Sun Dec 09, 2012 7:33 pm

Libertad wrote:This is turning into a game of Internet Cold Reader. You're passing judgment on a guy who said his group likes puzzles, assuming the worst due to bad experiences from other groups.

No I am assuming the most probable from the reality that people don't like fucking puzzles, and suggesting that he should attempt to honestly reevaluate whether his players actually like puzzles, or just haven't outright told him to stop using puzzles.

Sajber · Post by **Sajber** » Sun Dec 09, 2012 7:38 pm

Thanks so much, people who contributed puzzles! And thanks to you other people as well - I do hear what you're saying, and it's true. The case with my gaming groups is this: we started playing about 1½ years ago with a "normal" D&D campaign (but with another ruleset). In a dungeon, I added a single puzzle. All the players got really engaged in solving it, so in the next dungeon I added three puzzles, to see where it went.

They liked it so much they even told me to add more puzzles and puzzle-like things (Indiana Jones traps, etc). I asked them one on one if they really liked puzzles or if it was just because most of the group seemed to, but they really do enjoy puzzles. I asked them one on one because I realized that having puzzles is bad for all the reasons stated, because I frequently lurk here on the Den.

So... Any more puzzles? Those by RadiantPheonix were great, by the way!

Avoraciopoctules · Post by **Avoraciopoctules** » Sun Dec 09, 2012 7:49 pm

A dungeon which has a bunch of undead that are frozen in place by natural sunlight. There are also doors and other mechanisms that are powered by sunlight. A large shaft in the center of the complex is open to the sky or has a big portal.

There are a bunch of large mirrors in the dungeon, some in hidden rooms. If the group can knock down weak walls and dispel illusions, maybe find ways to get rid of opaque clouds of mist or dust, they can find an easier way through the complex.