Puzzles

Sajber · Post by **Sajber** » Fri Dec 07, 2012 7:47 am

My gaming group have recently started playing our own West March-style campaign, and we're having great fun. So far, though, I haven't really made any bigger dungeons; it's mostly been smaller caves or ruins. The players really enjoy dungeons and dungeon-related puzzles, though, so that's what I'm going to work a bit more on. Inspiration is, however, somewhat eluding me...

Finding good puzzles for a RPG is something I've struggled with in the last campaign we did. I used math and logic puzzles (http://www2.stetson.edu/~efriedma/puzzle.html) with various RPG-esque fluff, I tried Indiana Jones-type dangerous rooms and elaborate traps as well as optional riddles.

The players have really enjoyed all of this, but I really need a broader range of puzzles I can use. I'm currently trying to go through all the Zelda-games I've played for inspiration, and it's yielded some results. The problem is the translation from a single player graphics game to RPG - some things simply won't work. I'm also trying to avoid the item-dependant puzzles (bomb walls with cracks in them, etc.), and I want every puzzle to be class-independant.

Do you guys have any puzzles to share? Puzzle-like mechanics?

Maxus · Post by **Maxus** » Fri Dec 07, 2012 8:25 am

Well, there was one spell I always liked for dungeons.

Aqueous Air

Makes air humid enough for things to swim in. And humid enough for aquatic stuff to breath.

Planewalker still has some awesome stuff, if you can navigate their now fucked-up ways of finding things.

PhoneLobster · Post by **PhoneLobster** » Fri Dec 07, 2012 9:53 pm

While Zelda style puzzles are perhaps not entirely the same thing the rest of your "puzzle" material there steps very firmly over the fine line of Riddle Me Not.

Read that and have a long hard think about whether you are doing the right thing by stopping your D&D game to instead play a much less popular game or three in the form of math puzzles and riddles. Which I remind you no one would agree to play if you had offered it up minus the D&D.

Shatner · Post by **Shatner** » Fri Dec 07, 2012 11:00 pm

Sajber wrote:My gaming group have recently started playing our own West March-style campaign, and we're having great fun. So far, though, I haven't really made any bigger dungeons; it's mostly been smaller caves or ruins. The players really enjoy dungeons and dungeon-related puzzles, though, so that's what I'm going to work a bit more on. Inspiration is, however, somewhat eluding me...

Finding good puzzles for a RPG is something I've struggled with in the last campaign we did. I used math and logic puzzles (http://www2.stetson.edu/~efriedma/puzzle.html) with various RPG-esque fluff, I tried Indiana Jones-type dangerous rooms and elaborate traps as well as optional riddles.

The players have really enjoyed all of this, but I really need a broader range of puzzles I can use. I'm currently trying to go through all the Zelda-games I've played for inspiration, and it's yielded some results. The problem is the translation from a single player graphics game to RPG - some things simply won't work. I'm also trying to avoid the item-dependant puzzles (bomb walls with cracks in them, etc.), and I want every puzzle to be class-independant.

Do you guys have any puzzles to share? Puzzle-like mechanics?

I would first like to echo PL's warning about puzzles. That said, if your group has had them before and enjoys them, then I have some ideas I can recommend.

I had a cryptography-related bit in one campaign a while back. Two of the players were incarcerated separately. One got a cylindrical loaf of bread and a bowl of noodles. One of the noodles was actually a strip of like-colored silk that had gibberish written across it. The player had to figure out that it was a scytale to decipher the message. To assist in this leap of logic, I created the message using MSPaint and cut up and reassembled it to form one long strip, to show the writing on the strip of silk. Since that player was playing remotely, I emailed him the picture when we got to that point in the game.

The other character received a deck of cards with his tray of prison slop. There are 52 cards in a normal poker deck and there are 26 letters in the alphabet, so you can use the cards as a simple Caesar Cipher where all the black cards represent an A-Z alphabet, and the red cards represent a separate A-Z alphabet. Ace of Clubs/Ace of Diamonds = 1 = A, 2 of Clubs/2 of Diamonds = B, ..., King of Clubs/King of Diamonds = M, Ace of Spades/Ace of Hearts = N, ..., King of Spades/King of Hearts = Z. Each alphabet (black, red) spelled a different sentence. Letters in a word were together and in order, and words of the same sentence were delineated by words from the other sentence. For a short example, Red Sentence = HELP COMING, Black Sentence = AT DUSK. The deck would be stacked in the following order: red-H-E-L-P, black-A-T, red-C-O-M-I-N-G, black-D-U-S-K, red-unused letters, black-unused letters. I brought a second deck, stacked appropriately in case the cards got knocked out of order or some other accident occurred. My player figured it out pretty quickly; my handing him the deck and saying, "Your character sees a deck of cards on his food tray. That deck is in precisely this order." was all the hint he needed.

Shatner · Post by **Shatner** » Fri Dec 07, 2012 11:36 pm

This next one is less of an actual puzzle and more of an in-game way of simulating the characters solving a puzzle or having a research montage. Have a sheet of paper with the numbers 1 through 20 listed on it, as well as a space to tally successes. Have each player roll a d20. Every time a player rolls a number that has never been rolled before, their attempt fails, and you should draw a line through that number. Whenever a player rolls a number that HAS been rolled before (you can tell because the number has a line through it), their attempt succeeds and the team is one step closer to success; put a tally in the success column. Give each player X attempts. If the number of successes is less than A, the team has failed. If A < # of Successes <= B, the team has barely succeeded. If B < # of Successes <= C, the players have succeeded well. If # of Success > C, the team has succeeded wildly. Determine values for X, A, B, and C ahead of time. Determine what the rewards for each level of success ahead of time, as well as the penalty for failure, if any.

That's the bare bones version. When I've used it I've spiced things up a bit by doing the following:
1) If a player has a particularly relevant skill, increase X for them by some amount (e.g. the player gets an extra 3 attempts because they have high ranks in knowledge(history))

2) If a player thinks of a particularly clever line of inquiry, let them roll 2d20 and pick the result they want for that attempt, or allow them to roll 1d20 + 1d4 and modify the d20 result by up to +/- the d4 result

3) For every couple of failures, have something interesting happen (e.g. a fight breaks out at the tavern they were pumping for information, there's an explosion in the lab, the offending character gets roughed up by goons for "being nosy")

4) Whenever the players reach a success threshhold describe the nature of their breakthrough (e.g. for a minimum success you mmight say "You finally have evidence that the local duke was responsible for financing those 'rebels', but it looks like someone even higher up is pulling the duke's strings." For a larger margin of success you might say, "Based on your findings, the duke is heavily indebted to the Church of Wee Jas. It looks like the Ecclesiastic council of Wee Jas is demanding favors of the duke in exchange for giving him another extension on his 'uncollected tithes'.")

This way, everyone gets to contribute to whatever the challenge is, even if their character has no relevant skills, and even if the player sucks at puzzles. By setting X and A right, you can make this challenge a likely or unlikely success based on what you want. And by having interesting updates along the way, you can have the success/failures of the party describe an interesting or entertaining montage, which helps cover up the fact that they're really just rolling d20s repeatedly and hoping for the best.

Red_Rob · Post by **Red_Rob** » Sat Dec 08, 2012 1:15 am

While not exactly puzzles, in a recent campaign there were a few occasions where I looked at the powers available to the players and inserted situations that could be solved through using these powers. For example, they ended up stealing a cursed scroll from Hell that they needed to read, however they had been told it killed any mortal that read it. I had decided this was a [Death] effect and I knew the Cleric had acces to Death Ward, so they had a way to bypass it. The trick is to make the problems fairly open ended as this allows players to come up with their own wacky solutions if they don't hit on your method. In the case above the party ended up summoning an Angel to read it for them as it wasn't a mortal and could read it safely. Bonus points if you can get them to use abilities in ways they hadn't thought of, or exploit odd side effects of powers. There were a few instances like this during the game and the players seemed to enjoy poring over their ability lists and thinking up alternative ways to use their powers to overcome seemingly impossible problems.

shadzar · Post by **shadzar** » Sat Dec 08, 2012 1:37 am

simple overview...

the group is at the end of a passage with a room with several numbered lifts. the destination they want of course is the one leading to the top (or bottom) of these lifts. each lift goes between two floors, but not being able to see any floor but the one they are on, means not knowing where to go. also since not all lifts are present on all floors, they cant just hop on a lift and go straight to the top.

well that is the general idea at least.

Sajber · Post by **Sajber** » Sat Dec 08, 2012 11:15 am

Nice ideas! I'll definitely find some use for them. And about those warnings... as I made clear in my post, my group likes puzzles and riddles, otherwise I would not do it. I've read that post before, and while it's a good one, it doesn't apply to a group that knows that it likes these kinds of things. That being said, I always try to keep a 1:2 ratio between puzzles:regular D&D, since that's what the main idea is.

PhoneLobster · Post by **PhoneLobster** » Sat Dec 08, 2012 12:26 pm

Sajber wrote:my group likes puzzles and riddles, otherwise I would not do it. I've read that post before, and while it's a good one, it doesn't apply to a group that knows that it likes these kinds of things.

I would go back and reassess your groups likings very very carefully and objectively if I were you.

Because the odds that what you say is correct are incredibly vanishingly slim. Riddles and cryptography puzzles are not popular pass times. Your group would almost certainly not agree to play JUST riddles and cryptography puzzles and that should be a clear objective indicator that they enjoy such things LESS than D&D without them.

But I think even more importantly is that EVERY damn DM who thinks riddles are awesome ALWAYS says "but my group is the one exception in the universe, they just LOOOOOVE my riddles!". And that too is, sadly very unlikely.

Not to mention that the Riddle Me Not thread is definitely NOT just a thread declaring how most players hate riddles. It also points out the mechanically negative and general lack of believability/in story justifiability that such things have.

Even if you have the one group in the world that ISN'T lying through their teeth about how much they just love your riddles the riddles are STILL a jarring break to game play, don't fit with any justification as to why anyone in world would use them, do bad things related to abstracted intelligence scores for NO reason, and require setting immersion breaking knowledge in order to even be solvable by players.

The old thread is called "Riddle Me Not" rather than "Riddle Me Maybe if you are into the kinky stuff" for a reason.

edit: In fact I think I really need another example here for those still in denial.

Crosswords in D&D:
So your group enjoys riddles in D&D (you think). Well. Then they are going to LOVE crosswords. Especially cryptic crosswords. IN D&D!

Why? Well. Because crosswords actually ARE an actual popular puzzle pass time in the real world. Unlike, well, riddles, so that means MANY MORE players will enjoy crosswords in your D&D games... right?

So... why aren't you using crosswords INSTEAD of riddles?

Why aren't you stopping the fantasy sword and sorcery adventures at a (good lord) 2 to 1 ratio for the odd half hour of crosswording?

Avoraciopoctules · Post by **Avoraciopoctules** » Sat Dec 08, 2012 4:10 pm

I could stick a crossword puzzle in an alchemist lord's workshop. It is half complete, but the newspaper has been thrown into a corner of the room in frustration.

If the party decides they want to pick up the paper and solve the crossword puzzle, adjust the attitude of the NPC one step further towards friendly, since he found that puzzle really frustrating. Might work. But it shouldn't be the only way to make him more likely to agree to distill the black lotus extract so the PCs have another ingredient for the Elixir of Night.

Whatever · Post by **Whatever** » Sat Dec 08, 2012 4:33 pm

A crossword puzzle would be a fine downtime exercise for a wizard doing spell research.

PhoneLobster · Post by **PhoneLobster** » Sun Dec 09, 2012 1:43 am

Holy fuck pro riddle people are stupid.

Crosswords are cool if they can be bypassed!
No, really they aren't.

Avoraciopoctules, who, lets remember interrupts HIS D&D games to invite his players to beat him with wooden paddles, and so should not be trusted, puts forward a scenario which on even basic premise is contrived and not especially believable. It requires a wizard to have a crossword in a newspaper. For the wizard to NOT use his super intellect to solve it. And for him to be GLAD and LIKE the person who displays greater intellect in crossword solving which is SO not wizard like.

So it fails on the "why the fuck is this here in setting?" test straight away. Then it has all the usual problems, like bypassing and ruining working game mechanics, undermining abstraction benefits, and so on. I mean "You can use the game mechanic for convincing him to help you normally... OR you can spend half an hour completing a crossword!" is a stupid fucking choice and a BAD choice no matter what the players choose. DON'T INFLICT IT ON YOUR PLAYERS!

But crosswords would be totally cool in downtime right?
HELL NO.

If you mean, and I can ONLY assume you do, away from the table down time then NO a player who wants to do crosswords in his away from the table time will just do that in his spare time. And he will do the crosswords he wants to, not some bullshit crossword assignment handed to him by his GM for some OTHER game he plays.

And really what do you MEAN "exercise for spell research" are you fucking SERIOUSLY suggesting that you think giving a player crossword homework and telling him "now complete this unrelated bullshit puzzle of a type many people dislike if you want your totally unrelated in game goodies next time we play a totally unrelated game!"?

Because that is what you are suggesting. And holding players new spells in D&D hostage to them completing the Sunday newspaper crossword is a fucking bat shit insane bad idea.

Avoraciopoctules · Post by **Avoraciopoctules** » Sun Dec 09, 2012 1:54 am

You can do alchemy without being a wizard, bro.
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-classes/alchemist

PhoneLobster · Post by **PhoneLobster** » Sun Dec 09, 2012 1:58 am

Which, paddle beating bro, is both irrelevant and on a quick browse reveals another intelligence based class, so WTF, as usual, is your point?

Perhaps you should just stick to your usual line of "Puzzles is fun! Because... puzzles is fun! Interrupting D&D for puzzles and paddle beatings is fun!"

Bro.

Avoraciopoctules · Post by **Avoraciopoctules** » Sun Dec 09, 2012 2:01 am

You contend that wizards tend to be jerks who get mad if people seem smarter than them.

Alchemists in Pathfinder are more likely to be portrayed as "information wants to be free!" types, and might be more likely to be pleased to learn a new word.

Whatever · Post by **Whatever** » Sun Dec 09, 2012 2:12 am

I like how crosswords are first an "actual popular puzzle pass time" and then suddenly also a "bullshit puzzle of a type many people dislike". Obviously you don't tell players to do things that aren't fun. That's why I was discussing crosswords in the context you presented them: as something people enjoy doing. If they prefer a different kind of puzzle, you can do that instead.

This would be for the "make up your own spell" style of spell research, where you're already working with the player outside of normal game time to come up with a signature spell or two for their character (not their automatic new spells from leveling up). Because you sure as fuck don't sit down with everyone at the table and spend any time at all balancing Bigby the Wizard's latest Giant Hand spell. Oh wait, maybe you do. Were you the one who was against all downtime preparation ever?

You could say, "okay, you pay X gold, Y weeks pass, and (roll) you succeed!" but that's not especially interesting, and more die rolls aren't going to improve the process. Giving the player an independent puzzle to solve can be more engaging and more entertaining than either an automatic success, or an arbitrary roll.

I mean, I know you hate puzzles with the burning passion of a thousand fiery suns, but I'm not even suggesting using them at the table. We've moved well beyond riddles, too. You're going to have to do better than "I hate puzzles forever".

PhoneLobster · Post by **PhoneLobster** » Sun Dec 09, 2012 3:13 am

Whatever wrote:I like how crosswords are first an "actual popular puzzle pass time" and then suddenly also a "bullshit puzzle of a type many people dislike".

Yes, they are both. They are massively more popular than riddles... and also STILL an unpopular pass time. That is just how unpopular riddles are. We could pull in Lawn Bowls and still be both relatively unpopular and ahead of the popularity or riddles. Really.

Were you the one who was against all downtime preparation ever?

I was the one who pointed out how rarely that actually happens in practice. But had you basic reading comprehension you might have noted my assumption there was that yes, it was off the table down time, and that was still bat shit insane because you were holding the game (when it came back) hostage to utterly unrelated homework.

It's like one of the stupidest ideas I have ever seen on any RPG forum on the internet. Possibly second only to Avoraciopoctules literal invitations to his players to beat him with wooden paddles.

You're going to have to do better than "I hate puzzles forever".

It doesnt matter even if someone LIKES crosswords. You do not set them crosswords as homework for in game rewards. It breaks the game, undermines it's mechanics, and spends time doing something else.

You don't give players bonuses in your D&D game because they shot a set number of dudes playing some dumb ass FPS game all week at your behest. If you want a down time exercise or puzzle related to the game the game mechanics themselves are enough, usually MORE than enough, already. And that is why your idea is fucking stupid. Because you are sending them away to spell research by shooting dudes in an FPS or playing a Crossword instead of actually researching spell mechanics and coming back with a plausible (or in some sort of point based spell creation system, then just game legal) spell for you to approve. THAT is sensible downtime. Crosswords are literally a fucking laughable exaggerated example I set up to illustrate why puzzles are a bad idea.

edit: And come to think of it indeed the iconic example of the unrelated activity for in game rewards around here would be giving the DM a blow job which I think is pretty much actually remarkably representative of the whole "riddles is fun" crowd and their ideas right there.

Kaelik · Post by **Kaelik** » Sun Dec 09, 2012 3:19 am

The point is that crosswords are a "popular" activity, in that unlike riddles up to 5% of all people might actually like crosswords. So crosswords are vastly more popular than riddles.

The second reason it is a telling example is because crosswords are things we have all seen and probably had to deal with in real life, absent D&D, and therefore, are more likely to be aware is a piece of shit thing we don't enjoy absent the D&D context.

PL's entire point is that on a ten point scale, you enjoy the following things:

D&D: 10
Crosswords: 2
Riddles: 1
D&D Riddles: 5
D&D Crosswords: 5

So the point is that every time you stop to play crosswords or riddles, you are actively reducing your fun, and you are tricked by the context of D&D + presence of friends into thinking this is actually a fun activity.

But since we never do riddles in our spare time, we don't realize how much we are sabotaging ourselves. Crosswords are supposed to be an example to see how much you really don't want to break from D&D to play something much less fun.

Whatever · Post by **Whatever** » Sun Dec 09, 2012 3:40 am

It's spell research. They're going to have a spell proposal in mind already. That's the whole point. No one says "Oh, I'd like my character to invent a spell. What kind? Oh, I don't care. Surprise me!" They come to you with an idea for you to approve.

And they're not doing this because it's a game requirement to invent spells. It's because they want a spell with their character's name on it. It's literally a signature ability! Just giving that to them without any meaningful player action is honestly insulting. It'd be like starting the session with "oh, while you were resting at the inn a dragon showed up and (roll) you killed it! Everyone gets 1 level and 10,000 gold."

But if you're not giving the spell away for free, that leaves two choices:
1) create a spell research minigame for your player from scratch
2) have your player do some already-fun task as your spell research minigame

Maybe you're happy to create an entire point-based spell design system, or some kind of fully functional skill challenge system for the player to run through. Or you can just pick something that already exists and use that. If they don't have time for a crossword, or they don't like them, use something different. But if they haven't already read through the entire Wiz/Sorc spell list, the odds are good that they don't want to. Making them do actual research to get their spell would be an unpleasant chore, instead of a fun and rewarding minigame.

Avoraciopoctules · Post by **Avoraciopoctules** » Sun Dec 09, 2012 3:42 am

@Kaelik

Interesting. So, if I enjoy meatspace D&D as a 4, play-by-post D&D as a 6, and video games, riddles, and sparring with wooden battleaxes as a 7...

I am actively reducing fun if I don't hijack the campaign for Insult Swordfighting.

Kaelik · Post by **Kaelik** » Sun Dec 09, 2012 4:43 am

Whatever wrote:Just giving that to them without any meaningful player action is honestly insulting.

No it isn't. It isn't insulting when someone lets me play a Wizard instead of a Fighter without giving me a bullshit task. It isn't insulting when someone lets me play a Storm Lord instead of a Wizard without a bullshit task first.

Letting someone play the character they want to play without making them jump through hoops first is not insulting.

Avoraciopoctules wrote:I am actively reducing fun if I don't hijack the campaign for Insult Swordfighting.

Unless there are other people who don't enjoy that as much, in which case you are just as bad as every other DM that makes people suck their cock to play the D&D they want.

You fucking rapist.

Avoraciopoctules · Post by **Avoraciopoctules** » Sun Dec 09, 2012 4:54 am

Mein gott.

So every time Akula starts talking about which RNG to use for random events in his strategic campaign and the rest of us are like, "dude, we don't care", everyone is raping everyone else at the same time.

I think there might be a flaw in this perspective.

Kaelik · Post by **Kaelik** » Sun Dec 09, 2012 5:33 am

Avoraciopoctules wrote:Mein gott.

So every time Akula starts talking about which RNG to use for random events in his strategic campaign and the rest of us are like, "dude, we don't care", everyone is raping everyone else at the same time.

I think there might be a flaw in this perspective.

DMs have the ability to hold the game hostage. Other people do not.

No you aren't really a rapist, because the completely heinous thing that you do has nothing to do with sex. (Except that it sounds like you get sexual gratification from it, so maybe you are a rapist.) Doesn't mean you aren't a terrible person for ransoming D&D games on the demand that people spank you with paddles or do crossword puzzles.

Avoraciopoctules · Post by **Avoraciopoctules** » Sun Dec 09, 2012 6:19 am

Objection! All sorts of people can hold games hostage. People who own the gaming space can do so easily. So can people who take care of transportation. If the game is online, message board admins can easily threaten to close threads and at least temporarily stop a game.

All of these are more important than the MC. You can have a new MC take over a campaign an old one was running, and it might even improve it if the old MC was running a game nobody was interested in.

PhoneLobster · Post by **PhoneLobster** » Sun Dec 09, 2012 8:33 am

I'm not sure I see where this current argument of yours is going here... other people concievably could hold the game hostage and inflict... something... on people... therefore riddles aren't bad?

What?

And in the mean time. Crosswords as a homework "hoop" to jump through are a BAD TYPE OF HOOP. Coming up with your own idea for a spell is a good hoop. Determining and requesting mechanics for it vaguely in keeping with appropriate levels is a good hoop. Even doing exciting adventurery things in game is a good hoop. Doing a complex and generally annoying task as extended homework that has no relation to any of those things is a BAD HOOP.

There are many reasons you shouldn't introduce bad hoops. For one thing they mean less time and room for the good ones. But most of all the problem is that some crossword nutter will return to your game one day with a spell "1st level mega screw you" that instantly wins all combats and has a fluff description/concept of "blah blah I don't care ahahahaha" and he is going to say to you "but you just told me to do the crossword and I totally did that REALLY well in record time SO I EARNED THIS.

No. Like Kaelik says, you aren't earning the right to play the character you want or use abilities. And if you represent it like that people are going to start demanding the right to break your game because they "earned it" with crossword puzzle homework.

The Gaming Den

Puzzles

Puzzles

Re: Puzzles