[D&D 3.X/Tome] How do you handle gods?

erik · Post by **erik** » Sat Jun 27, 2015 2:40 am

I'll do gods as extremely powerful individuals, narcissists and megalomaniacs mostly. Lords of Light style where they reward their worshipers with tech/luxuries, but receive no mechanical benefit from having worshipers.

The benefits to kicking the ass of various gods is because they are dicks and deserve it, and to loot their cool artifacts.

silva · Post by **silva** » Sat Jun 27, 2015 3:26 am

Prak wrote:
silva wrote:I prefer the glorantha approach where gods are more like nature primal forces myself. This way its impossible for PCs to challenge them or some other bizarre idea.

If I remember right, Planescape, even having a more trad D&D approach, still makes gods invulnerable to mortals meddling. I like that.
It's actually easier for players to kill gods in Glorantha because of it's shitty rules and setting.

Hero Questing is a thing. You go to the hero plane to pursue the myth of "that time the sun god was killed" and take the role of the god who killed him. Then, through knowing the myth really well, you just reenact the myth, kill the sun god and leave, declaring "the sun god is dead and I am now nigh unto a god in power without the shitty compulsions that go into being a god," or whatever.

I'm not sure, but since you can declare whatever effect you want when you come down off your acid trip hero quest, you might be able to declare gods dead just for completing any hero quest.

Planescape kicked the gods out. It's supposed to primarily take place in the city of Sigil which is ruled by an omnipotent dominatrix in a sword mask who will kick gods in the nuts if they enter her city.

Also, I don't care what flavour of Abrahamist you may be, but setting aside the Abrahamic religions (Judaism, Christianity, Islam) gods have always been totes killable. It may be difficult, but you could always do it.

Edit: Just remember, anytime you're about to say you like something about Glorantha-
Glorantha was written by a modern reconstructionist shaman, ie, a person who looked at the complete dearth of knowledge we have of what all people older than Ancient Rome believed beyond "I don't know, spirits?"and said "yeah, I'm going to follow that!" Possibly because drugs. He then proceeded to write Glorantha, where all the old human myths and completely nonsensical stories to explain the world are true, and no scientific phenomenon exists. Gravity doesn't exist in Glorantha, people fall because all things yearn to return to the earth father. If you combine saltpeter, sulpher and charcoal in Glorantha, you don't get gunpowder, just a mess. Because science doesn't work. If you want to make gunpowder, first you have to piss off a bunch of literally made of earth dwarves by stealing their magic, then you have to use their magic. If you get hit in the face by acid in Glorantha, and you try to neutralize it with lye, which would be common in sculeries of the replicated time period, you'll just hurt yourself more, because science doesn't exist and acid burns because it is basically fire. So contrary to what your modern mind tells you, you actually want to wash acid off with water. Because science doesn't exist.

When I say Science Doesn't Exist in Glorantha, I don't mean the scientific method. That totally exists. There are guys who basically recognized the whole Hero's Journey thing going on with the gods called the Godlearners, and they are totally scientists. They switched the fertility goddesses of two religions with a hero quest just to see what would happen. When I say Science Doesn't Exist in Glorantha, I mean physics, thermodynamics, chemistry, the basic foundations of the real world.

This is why Glorantha sucks. None of your assumptions are valid, and while a good GM would answer any given question with how something is believed to work, that basically leads to sitting around for a Myth Science Class rather than actually playing. It's worse than Ars Magica because these bullshit myth-physics things come up for more than just the magic system.

Lol. This fucked up trip of yours is result of being introduced to the setting by that mongoose edition crap. If you were introduced by any other means you would be sane by now.

But dont worry. Here, take these pills. They will get you back to reality.

Prak · Post by **Prak** » Sat Jun 27, 2015 6:22 am

You... You realize that a video game is inherently going to be less true to source than a new edition, right? I mean, you're Silva, so of course not, but it's true. Mongoose's edition is only untrue to source by making Runes physical swag you could find. My gm was personal friend with Greg Stafford, I'm pretty sure it was the second most consistent with original intent game in the world, and only because Stafford's actual original intent was probably something along the lines of "let me teach chicks about reconstructionist shamanism so I can get them to suck on my peace pipe"

Grek · Post by **Grek** » Sat Jun 27, 2015 2:00 pm

maglag wrote:I use the "gods are powered by the faith of their worshipers", because otherwise why do gods bother to promote cults around them at all?

In my setting, gods get to be gods because a higher power appointed them to that position, and that same higher power can appoint someone else if the god fails to perform the duties expected of them in a timely and appropriate fashion. The gods bother with cults and priests and that sort of thing for the same reason governments bother with lobbyists: They like the idea of getting feedback from the governed, but need it to come from a single source presenting a unified view of what the people want from them. Gods don't have the time to listen to every prayer and try to figure out a solution that pleases everyone. They need their priests to provide a summary version of what the public wants done, so that they can do that and keep the number of complaints down so they don't get replaced.

Killing the other side's priests is not really a thing. While the God of Deer would probably like you to kill wolves and hunters in order to keep the deer population high, he is not going to tell you to go kill the priests of the God of the Hunt, because lots of the Deer Priests and Hunt Priests are the same people, and that sort of inter-domain bickering is frowned upon from on high.

silva · Post by **silva** » Sat Jun 27, 2015 2:30 pm

Oh come on Prak, we had this discussion already and you admitted things were trippy more due to your GM than the actual game material. You know the trippy stuff only works at a cosmological level, and the day-to-day reality is pretty Ok and identical to ours. You know heroquesting cannot kill gods or something, and can only emulate them to get the effects they symbolize for fucks sake (your clan is ravaged by a plague ? Make the "Waha fucks the Blessed River goddess and comes out with his dick shining and slapping on all villagers faces to cure them all" ritual.

Prak wrote:You... You realize that a video game is inherently going to be less true to source than a new edition, right?

Nah, the very Greg Stafford is the videogame co-author, so this argument is busted. Also, your "new" edition is no more. Both the simulationist and narrativist tribes got their perfect editions already (RQ6 and HQ2: Glorantha lines, respectively) and sent to oblivion that abhorrent piece of shit that was mongoose RQ.

Mongoose's edition is only untrue to source by making Runes physical swag you could find.

Not only that, it was the only edition portraying the Godlearners which were the ones to kill gods and fuck up with myths and engage in the trippy stuff. All other editions assume Godlearner stuff is forbidden/off-limits and you play as ignorant barbarians putting sticks on each other for food and because their priests say so, or embarking on heroquests to bring courageous men to come and marry your ugly as shit clanswomen so the clan dont die out.

My gm was personal friend with Greg Stafford, I'm pretty sure it was the second most consistent with original intent game in the world, and only because Stafford's actual original intent was probably something along the lines of "let me teach chicks about reconstructionist shamanism so I can get them to suck on my peace pipe"

Huheuhuehuheuhue

vagrant · Post by **vagrant** » Sat Jun 27, 2015 3:33 pm

Not to agree with Silva or anything, but I'm pretty sure there are easier ways to get chicks to blow you than 'teach them about reconstructionist shamanism.'

Chamomile · Post by **Chamomile** » Sat Jun 27, 2015 3:44 pm

Depends on what kind of chicks you're after and what your skillset is.

maglag · Post by **maglag** » Sat Jun 27, 2015 9:06 pm

I find it a bit too cynic to take the approach of "all gods are megalomaniacal dicks who drop fat loot after murderized". Makes me see them as little more than glorified sidequests.

Prak wrote:
maglag wrote:But then there's zero difference between a "god" and "powerful dude who gets less powerful dudes to do his bidding". By your definition, the king, vampire noble, orc bandit leader, school bully and the janitor's superior are all automatically gods because they have some degree of power over somebody else.
And?

A god implies a religion and religion implies worship rituals. The god demands sacrifices and festivals and whatnot in Their name for people to prove their faith. A holy crusade/jihad isn't just dudes stabbing each other for loot and land like a regular war, it's also the soldiers holding mass prayers before/after the carnage and then erecting shrines for their gods and getting the surviving locals to join the prayers.
The peasants believe the king will murder them if they do not perform the ritual of paying taxes. The orc bandits believe their leader will murder them if they don't perform the rituals he gives them in the form of orders, the school bullys' victims believe he'll beat them if they don't perform the rituals of trying to avoid him or giving him their money, the janitor believes he'll be fired if he doesn't perform the ritual of doing his rounds.

Ah, but the peasants/bandits/victims/janitor don't get to pick who their king/leader/bully/superior is.

But you do get to pick what god you worship. So if a god is too much of a dick, their worshipers just start chanting their prayers and building monuments to some other god who offers better rewards for their faith, and the old one withers and dies. Plenty of gods to choose and always looking for more worshipers. Visit their nearest temple with free food/drugs/blessings/sex if you'll just join the morning chants!

Prak · Post by **Prak** » Sat Jun 27, 2015 9:34 pm

silva wrote:Oh come on Prak, we had this discussion already and you admitted things were trippy more due to your GM than the actual game material. You know the trippy stuff only works at a cosmological level, and the day-to-day reality is pretty Ok and identical to ours. You know heroquesting cannot kill gods or something, and can only emulate them to get the effects they symbolize for fucks sake (your clan is ravaged by a plague ? Make the "Waha fucks the Blessed River goddess and comes out with his dick shining and slapping on all villagers faces to cure them all" ritual.

I refer you again to the myth about killing the sun god. Or the time when Humakt, the god of death, killed Orlanth, Gloranthan Odin. What the fuck do you think happens when you complete those myths? And yes, you declare what's now true when you come down. So you can say "we killed the sun god" either on purpose or because you fucked up, and have it actually be true. The gods are basically scripted mobs, so killing them isn't exactly difficult. Step 1: Hero Quest the myth about Eurmal finding Death. Step 2: Take Death and go wreck gods up.

Prak wrote:You... You realize that a video game is inherently going to be less true to source than a new edition, right?
Nah, the very Greg Stafford is the videogame co-author, so this argument is busted. Also, your "new" edition is no more. Both the simulationist and narrativist tribes got their perfect editions already (RQ6 and HQ2: Glorantha lines, respectively) and sent to oblivion that abhorrent piece of shit that was mongoose RQ.

If MRQ is so horrid, I'd like to see a list of differences between "true Glorantha" and MRQ Glorantha.

Mongoose's edition is only untrue to source by making Runes physical swag you could find.
Not only that, it was the only edition portraying the Godlearners which were the ones to kill gods and fuck up with myths and engage in the trippy stuff. All other editions assume Godlearner stuff is forbidden/off-limits and you play as ignorant barbarians putting sticks on each other for food and because their priests say so, or embarking on heroquests to bring courageous men to come and marry your ugly as shit clanswomen so the clan dont die out.

So MRQ was the only edition where you could play the only fucking intelligent people in Glorantha? You're not making it sound too bad here.

My gm was personal friend with Greg Stafford, I'm pretty sure it was the second most consistent with original intent game in the world, and only because Stafford's actual original intent was probably something along the lines of "let me teach chicks about reconstructionist shamanism so I can get them to suck on my peace pipe"
Huheuhuehuheuhue

Well, let's be honest about the reasons people write games.... Especially pretentious ones like WoD or Runequest.

Omegonthesane · Post by **Omegonthesane** » Sat Jun 27, 2015 10:37 pm

maglag wrote:I find it a bit too cynic to take the approach of "all gods are megalomaniacal dicks who drop fat loot after murderized". Makes me see them as little more than glorified sidequests.

For given values of "megalomaniacal" and "dicks" the same could be said of all warlords ever, and D&D is in many ways an Iron Age setting run on the warlord model of politics "under the hood" - any state is held together by the high level (relative to their surroundings) wizard or cleric who wants it to be held together and is willing to use their class abilities to that end.

maglag wrote:
Prak wrote:
maglag wrote:But then there's zero difference between a "god" and "powerful dude who gets less powerful dudes to do his bidding". By your definition, the king, vampire noble, orc bandit leader, school bully and the janitor's superior are all automatically gods because they have some degree of power over somebody else.
And?

A god implies a religion and religion implies worship rituals. The god demands sacrifices and festivals and whatnot in Their name for people to prove their faith. A holy crusade/jihad isn't just dudes stabbing each other for loot and land like a regular war, it's also the soldiers holding mass prayers before/after the carnage and then erecting shrines for their gods and getting the surviving locals to join the prayers.
The peasants believe the king will murder them if they do not perform the ritual of paying taxes. The orc bandits believe their leader will murder them if they don't perform the rituals he gives them in the form of orders, the school bullys' victims believe he'll beat them if they don't perform the rituals of trying to avoid him or giving him their money, the janitor believes he'll be fired if he doesn't perform the ritual of doing his rounds.
Ah, but the peasants/bandits/victims/janitor don't get to pick who their king/leader/bully/superior is.

But you do get to pick what god you worship. So if a god is too much of a dick, their worshipers just start chanting their prayers and building monuments to some other god who offers better rewards for their faith, and the old one withers and dies. Plenty of gods to choose and always looking for more worshipers. Visit their nearest temple with free food/drugs/blessings/sex if you'll just join the morning chants!

You know, religious persecution is totally a thing. If your god is enough of a dick that you might want to stop worshipping them they're also probably enough of a dick to declare you an apostate and have their evil servants hunt you down to the ends of the earth - or at least the ends of their theocracy - and subject you to a horrible and humiliating death as an example to all other apostates. The construction project to another god is knocked down in its infancy for committing idolatry, and all its architects and builders likewise get a horrible humiliating death. Evil gods get worship with the stick as much as with the carrot - the only way for a less evil god to get a toe hold is by having enough military force to prevent the defilement of their temple and the murder of their worshippers.

You want to know what Evil God Land looks like? We have it IRL, it's called Daesh. Or alternately, the DPRK. Alternately, play Black & White 2 as evilly as possible.

TL;DR no, the weak do not get to choose who the god they publicly worship is, any more than they get to choose any other form of tyrant.

deaddmwalking · Post by **deaddmwalking** » Sun Jun 28, 2015 12:45 am

I always like to advocate for distant gods (possibly non-existent). In our world people who think they speak directly to god(s) are considered insane. In earlier times, this type of spiritualism was more accepted. That type of situation actually works really well for the game. The cleric of Pelor can't say 'you don't believe me, well ask Pelor yourself' and have that be a viable option.

While 'magic is real', the source of magic can be an open theological question. Clearly wizards, even those that blaspheme against the existence of gods are able to cast spells - hardly a proof that there really is a Pelor.

There should certainly be powerful beings, some of whom may be worshiped as gods - some of them may even approach Olympians in terms of power and ability, but whether they truly grant spells is debatable.

One of the many advantages of this is that you can have a dozen death gods worshiped by different cultures and it actually makes sense. Another advantage is that since Pelor never shows up to beat anyone up, clerics really do have to show that their faith is not only valid, but the best choice for the people that they're trying to convert. It also totally makes sense to 'worship' evil gods - if someone convinces you that PLAGUE is going to come upon you unless you make the right sacrifices, that's what you're going to do.

All of the 'real world' stories that exist because nobody can prove the existence of their god to everybody else are back on the table. Oh, and it also takes away a cringe-inducing toy that too many GMs have abused.

PhoneLobster · Post by **PhoneLobster** » Sun Jun 28, 2015 1:03 am

deaddmwalking wrote:Oh, and it also takes away a cringe-inducing toy that too many GMs have abused.

That cringe inducing toy and the fact that it's actually a giant conceptual problem if it exists in a setting whether the GM wants to wave it around and turkey slap players with it or not, is the reason why RPG options for how deities work are so limited, (especially in the context of anything like D&D).

I'm pretty sure it always boils down to SOME variation of one of two options.

1) Gods are sufficiently distant as to be indistinguishable from imaginary.

2) Gods are present and real and pretty much indistinguishable from any other powerful characters/monsters.

There are things you can do to promote and integrate either option better into your setting and mechanics.

Option 2 would really benefit from an integrated and sane faith resource/deity powers system.

Option 1 would be better supported by mechanics where there wasn't an actual distinction between wizard/cleric powers/spells and any spell casting chump could just sit down, study a cults magical techniques and reproduce them without arbitrary "no, only faith magic users get this one" options.

I don't see how anything else gets to actually function without singificant issues, and I don't see minor variations on the two options (like say, hey option 1 or 2, only there is like, thematic universal elemental forces and people can be "devotees of fire" and get power from fire regardless of their specific crazy beliefs) as being especially notable as in any way different from those two options.

And once someone decides "the gods will make a personal appearance in this campaign" that means they are stuck, one way or another, with option 2.

silva · Post by **silva** » Sun Jun 28, 2015 1:27 am

@Prak,

The easier way to undesrtand how Glorantha heroquesting works is simply to look at real-life religious reenactments. Taking a hypothetical example (because atheistic that I am, I cant come up with any real myth right now), when you ritually kill the eponymous dragon from St. George of Lydda legend, or some enemy from Ogun in yoruba myth, asking for victory over some real-life struggle in return, you gain a temporary boon sure (if youre a believer of that faith, of course) but this dont mean all your enemies will be defeated forever, or that you will be forever victorious, no, you will need to reeneact the myth again and again for victory over future struggles.

The same holds true for Glorantha. Any positive effect you get from a heroquest is like a boon, and its effects are local and/or temporary (or, if permanent - something rare - it takes a much subtler effect). Take a look at the Orlanth and Aroka myth for example. During this heroquest you must slay a dragon that have eaten the rain god, Heller, to bring rain back to your clan fields. After you succeed at the quest you can pick between a number of rewards, but none of them is having the dragon slayed forever! This means the rain can go away again after some time, and you will have to reenact the myth again by then.

The exception to this rule is when there are setting-shaking forces at play with enough power and knowledge to tamper with the myths (like the Godlearners did during the second age). But even that is an exception, as the very setting retributed with a cataclism that killed all them and everyone who followed them. In practice, no publications ever included the kind of high-level Godlearner heroquest that could transform the mythical landscape at will the way you cite. If you take the more emblematic products and modules from all of Glorantha history, from classics like Cults of Prax and Griffin Mountain to new products like Sartar: Kingdom of Heroes, you will see that your typical Gloranthan adventuring is pretty low-key, with characters acting as troubleshooters for their clans or cults, fighting neighbours for cattle or invading imperials, and enacting heroquests to bring rain or making their pregnant wife have a son.

I reccomend a look at King of Dragon Pass. Your misconceptions about Glorantha would be alleviated if you play it for a bit. BTW, its been released in all platforms at this point (thoug I recommend the IOS version). If you have the chance to play it, remember those high lethality rate expeditions you send to explore distant corners of the map - those poor souls are the players on the roleplaying game.

Prak · Post by **Prak** » Sun Jun 28, 2015 2:15 am

I recommend you look at RUNEQUEST BOOKS, because you can totally hero quest to kill gods. You just either seriously fuck shit up, or you take the god's place and roll a new character.

Damnit, I could have sworn I had the book about hero questing.

Look. I don't give a flying fucking rats ass. Greg Stafford intentionally gave people different information because he thinks it's cute and Runequest for him is more about reconstructing myths and religion and emulating the telephone game that is an oral tradition. It's entirely possible that when he talked to people writing Cults of Prax or making King of Dragon's Pass Hero Quest boons were pissant achievement powers, but when he talked to others you could kill the gods.

I don't care anymore. Have your hard on for a shitty roleplaying game about emulating oral traditions rather than codified fucking rules sets. At least when you look at it that way you might expect the copious amounts of fellatio you're going to have to give the GM if said GM is not mature enough to not dick with you to the full extent such a setting allows.

silva · Post by **silva** » Sun Jun 28, 2015 2:34 am

Prak wrote:I recommend you look at RUNEQUEST BOOKS, because you can totally hero quest to kill gods. You just either seriously fuck shit up, or you take the god's place and roll a new character.

Sure, just point me to the book and pages in question and Ill have a look.

Go ahead.

(tip: you wont, because this shit you made up only exists on your head and the head of the fucked up GM friend of yours

)

Prak · Post by **Prak** » Sun Jun 28, 2015 3:11 am

Sure, there's a book written by Stafford called Hero Questing for first edition. It's all word processed and it has a blue cover.

Knock yourself out, asshole.

Or, hell, you can ask Stafford yourself on Facebook, but if you do get at least one other person to ask him the same question with no reference to yours. He'll give different answers.

SubversionArts · Post by **SubversionArts** » Sun Jun 28, 2015 6:51 pm

I'm still a big fan of pre-MtG WotC's "Primal Order" system that Peter Adkinson created.

http://www.rpg.net/reviews/archive/clas ... 2459.phtml

silva · Post by **silva** » Sun Jun 28, 2015 7:30 pm

Prak wrote:Knock yourself out, asshole.

Ouch. Why the hate, man ? It seems like everyone around here is always on the edge or something. There is no waifu where you live ? Or drugs ? Or videogames ?

Relax bro.

Kaelik · Post by **Kaelik** » Sun Jun 28, 2015 9:41 pm

Protip: When someone is mean to you, it does not mean that they are overwrought, it probably just means you deserve meanness.

RelentlessImp · Post by **RelentlessImp** » Tue Jun 30, 2015 4:39 am

Jesus christ, stop talking to silva. He's a miserable, pathetic little troll whose tiny dick only gets hard when he's trolling people on the internet. Every word you say to him means he gets to fap for ten seconds and get off. He's a masochistic little shit who gets off on the abuse leveled his way. As much as I enjoy beating masochists, I'd have to break fifteen horsehair floggers, nine riding crops, and eighteen paddles on his ass and balls before he finally cried the safeword. Just stop talking to him. The effort is never worth it for his non-contributions.

nockermensch · Post by **nockermensch** » Tue Jun 30, 2015 2:19 pm

>2015
>not having silva in your ignore list

silva · Post by **silva** » Tue Jun 30, 2015 4:37 pm

Kaelik wrote:Protip: When someone is mean to you, it does not mean that they are overwrought, it probably just means you deserve meanness.

So everybody that disagrees with you deserve meanness ? If its not an immature behavior I don't know what is.

Mask_De_H · Post by **Mask_De_H** » Tue Jun 30, 2015 5:42 pm

Hide Silva threads
Ignore Silva posts
Do not respond to Silva

Username17 · Post by **Username17** » Tue Jun 30, 2015 7:24 pm

Anyway, on the subject of divinity in kitchen sink fantasy. I think that, as is often the case, looking at Dominions is a pretty fruitful place to start when trying to design kitchen sink fantasy elements. D&D from very early on posits gods that parties of medium level adventurers would stab in the face, and at the same time posited characters whose magic use was based on them being "priests" of those very gods. That's a difficult circle to square, to be honest. But it's important to note that Dominions basically did.

The gods are tough monsters and powerful sorcerers and giant statues full of magic and shit, and they are about as powerful as the toughest of their available angels and demons. But they are different from the elemental royalty and archdevils and shit because they have factions of their own that erect temples in their honor and spread their divine authority across the mortal world. And when you stab them in the face, their priests continue to have their powers and one of the priestly powers is to be able to contribute to a faction-wide effort to bring the god back.

Meanwhile, a Death wizard and a Death priest will still be able to cast pretty much the same Death magic. The difference is that the priest also has access to a very small number of priestly spells that do shit like bless allies and smite enemy demons. This is extremely doable in the realm of Kitchen Sink Fantasy, where taking the Cleric option in any class would give you access to a short list of prayers - maybe one per level or so. And that would mean that as a Fire Priest you would normally rain fire on people, but you could offer some blessings and smite enemy demons and when you got to high enough level you'd get a Planar Ally. This whole thing of having divine authority could take up the same part of your character that being secretly a prince or something would.

-Username17

Kaelik · Post by **Kaelik** » Tue Jun 30, 2015 10:40 pm

silva wrote:
Kaelik wrote:Protip: When someone is mean to you, it does not mean that they are overwrought, it probably just means you deserve meanness.
So everybody that disagrees with you deserve meanness ? If its not an immature behavior I don't know what is.

Uh... you didn't say that clearly enough for me to understand what you are saying but:

1) Most people aren't mean to everyone who disagrees with them. I'm not even mean to everyone who disagrees with me, and I'm the most extreme example that exists.

2) If Kaelik is mean to you, that probably doesn't mean anything, but Kaelik is not representative of most people being mean. I said probably to take into account exceptions, one of those exceptions is Kaelik.

3) In your case, every single time you have personally had someone be mean to you was because you are a fucking monster. Even when you were born your mother knew she gave birth to an add bot not a person, and she felt really bad.