Best System for Dragonlance?

[CalibronXXX]

There's no reason a Christian would detest a pagan anymore than they would detest any other non-believer. Certainly a large number of Christians gravitate into sects, that end up being made up of as many or more non-Christians as Christians, that make up new rules and traditions for no good reason, and some of these sects hate pagans or gays or one ethnic group or another; but that has far more to do with human nature than anything to do with Christianity in and of itself.

[Captain_Bleach]

It seems to do more with "hey, that's a good idea, let's steal it!"

[JonSetanta]

It's more like.. there's a certain percentage of crazy zealots in any give human population, and it doesn't matter what medium through which they channel that craziness.
Religion happens to be a popular choice for crazies because of the concept of 'faith', which is like carrying a big gun.
You can't challenge faith because "it's true", no logical debate, end of discussion because the holy book/my priest said so.

[Username17]

Basically followers of all the major religions spend an inordinate amount of time yelling at each other and accusing each other of doing it wrong. The word "Christian" just means "someone who follows Christ". So anyone who follows Christ is a Christian.

Now here comes the hard part: what constitutes following Christ? That's extremely difficult because Jesus Christ didn't ever actually exist. Seriously, his life story is just a folk amalgam of Horus and Moses. And there's no historical record of any of his miracles, actions, birth, or death. For that matter, the first Christian texts no longer even exist and noone knows what they said. The available scriptures are all written much later and many (but quite specifically not all) were supposedly written with older source material to fall back on.

The modern Christian Sects don't even agree on what the words in the bible even are, let alone what those words mean. Each church has their own set of "translations" and collections of different books which they regard as authentic.

---

But the long and the short of it is that the oldest Christian faction is the Coptics. If you aren't Egyptian Coptic Orothodox you have no right to tell other people that they are "Following Jesus wrong". The second oldest Christian faction is the Roman Catholic Church. All the "born again" Christian movements are reinterpretations from about a thousand years after the Catholic Church's founding. They have no especial monopoly on legitimacy and aren't even vaguely recognizable as the religion practiced by the early Christians.

-Username17

[Captain_Bleach]

Tell me more about this Egyptian Coptic Orthodox.

[PhoneLobster]

Tell me more about this Egyptian Coptic Orthodox.

I think they had a key role (through no fault or effort of their own) in the first translations of Egyptian hieroglyphs.

[Fwib]

I thought that was some french guy and the rosetta stone?

[PhoneLobster]

Yeah but he suddenly discovered the spoken language of the hieroglyphs wasn't as entirely dead as was thought when he stumbled across local Coptic congregations still using a form of it.

Apparently it was of some small help.

[tzor]

1197233943[/unixtime]]Catholicism, with all it's saints and angels and other things you pray to, is as much ancestor worship and pantheism as it is monotheism.

Yea, like whatever. Same old anti-catholic claptrap from people who still are hung up over why they left someone and still can't find a good reason to admit that they did so. Depressing chicklit manure, just like the same chicklit manure that disses D&D.

If you aren't Egyptian Coptic Orothodox you have no right to tell other people that they are "Following Jesus wrong". The second oldest Christian faction is the Roman Catholic Church.

I think there are a couple of more factions between the Egyptian Coptic and the Roman Catholic but off hand I can't remember their names. Eastern Orthodoxy has to be considered as well.

One of the biggest jokes I have seen when people throw the standard anti-catholic claptrap is that it doesn't often even realize the Eastern Orthodox tradition. When you throw in that tradition into the argument most of the anti-catholic claptrap falls apart like the weak strawmen they are.

[CalibronXXX]

If I'm wrong then tell me why praying to human beings and angels is biblically supported; and srsly, "chicklit"?

[angelfromanotherpin]

One of the biggest jokes I have seen when people throw the standard anti-catholic claptrap is that it doesn't often even realize the Eastern Orthodox tradition. When you throw in that tradition into the argument most of the anti-catholic claptrap falls apart like the weak strawmen they are.

'Realize?' Is that supposed to be recognize?

I really don't understand what you're trying to say here. The Catholic Church and the Eastern Orthodox Church are entirely separate entities with distinct theologies and traditions. If you're saying that anti-Catholic arguments fail when applied to the Eastern Orthodox church, that's not at all surprising. It's like saying that anti-Mormon arguments fail when applied to Protestantism.

[Username17]

If I'm wrong then tell me why praying to human beings and angels is biblically supported

Really? Like you know, the entire Talmud? Or what about the fact that Jesus is himself supposedly a human and you pray to him all the time?

The first commandment doesn't say that there aren't any other gods or that you can't pray to things that aren't gods. Indeed, the biblical prayers to YHWH are quite specific about him being the biggest and the best god:

There is none like you among the gods, O Lord, nor are there any works like yours.

God has taken his place in the divine council; in the midst of the gods he holds judgment.

I give you thanks, O Lord, with my whole heart; before the gods I sing your praise.

All the nations may walk in the name of their gods; we will walk in the name of the LORD our God for ever and ever.

Which is not to say that YHWH wouldn't at some point allow the worship of other gods. Solomon's great temple for example had a side altar to Asherah (or Astarte, or Astoreth, or Isis as she is variously known).

and srsly, "chicklit"?

Yes. Jack Chick has a quite famous tract called "Are Catholics Christian?" in which he says that they are not. He also has another famous tract about how if you get to 7th level as a D&D cleric you get your own cult who will sacrifice virgins to Satan for you. Saying that Catholics aren't Christians puts you in hillariously bad company and people will mock you mercilessly for it.

The whole idea that you can't worship other things is a corruption of the actual commandment that you can't elevate anything or anyone above YHWH. Of course, the making of graven images of any kind of YHWH is also right out as is giving the God of Israel a specific name. So the entire worship of Jesus with construction of Crosses for the purpose is treading on extremely thin ice.

---

But then nothing is actually going to happen to you because these are all just the stories of my "tribe" back before we had nations. It wold be like some Irish person worrying if their modern day actions would offend Donn. After all, that's their nation and that's their god. Get it?

-Username17

[tzor]

1197307741[/unixtime]]If I'm wrong then tell me why praying to human beings and angels is biblically supported; and srsly, "chicklit"?

Before we can even begin we have to start out with a common vocabulary. One we have that we might be able to address the subtle heresies that spring from the doctrine of “Sola Scriptura” (but I’m not going there because, honestly, I can pull a Kirk maneuver on you) and get to the real root of the problem.

Simply put “to pray” is “to ask.” Three of the greatest most confused verbs in religion are pray, worship and honor, because when we talk to God we do all of the above without even thinking of it. Even the “Our Father” has a mixture of all three within. But in the context there is nothing against people asking other people for things in the Bible. But we haven’t got to first base yet. When you ask “then tell me why praying to human beings and angels is biblically supported,” you’ve just made an earnest request; a prayer.

Now I really don’t have the time to search the chapters and verses, but if you scroll through Paul’s letters you will see plenty of incidents where he asks (once again ask/pray) for prayers (asking others to in effect ask God). There is no prohibition in the Bible in asking others to pray for you.

That’s important because once we get on first base we need to address the real issue, it’s not the act of asking; it’s what we are asking for! Catholic teaching is quite explicit; we ask others to ask God; we pray to others to pray to God, “ora pro nobis.”

I really need a white board here, because I want to draw all these arrows. We (lots of pointed up arrows) ask each other (horizontal lines) to ask with the holy spirit (draw fluffy cloud around arrows) to God the Father, through Christ our Lord (add cross extend pointed lines to generic symbol for the Father), ‘cause it’s true. (Lame translation of Amen.)

Well that answered the question of why we ask other human beings things.

And now for the second question. “Chicklit? It’s a bad pun, or a misspelling, you can choose. Technically Chick Lit means “a term used to denote genre fiction written for and marketed to young women, especially single, working women in their twenties and thirties.” But I tend to use it as “a term used to denote the genre fiction written in comic pamphlet form by Jack Chick Publications.” I also tend to call people who push Chick pamphlets “Chicklets.”

Finally for angelfromanotherpin’s comment, I really mean “realize.” A lot of these arguments is derived from arguments like “they do A, because they do B.” But they don’t even realize that someone else doesn’t do B yet at the same time they also do A. The best example is the miters of the various Orthodox which have no resemblance to a fish’s head whatsoever. (More like a mushroom top if you ask me.) And yet they seem to have all the answers on how bad the Catholic Church is based on a fashion style that didn’t even evolve until after the second millennium.

[Crissa]

tzor, your last post was filled with crap two byte characters that had nothing to do with any known character encoding.

Obviously this doesn't usually happen when you post, so could you remember what you did and fix it?

Thanks.

-Crissa

[RandomCasualty]

1197310400[/unixtime]]
Jack Chick has a quite famous tract called "Are Catholics Christian?" in which he says that they are not. He also has another famous tract about how if you get to 7th level as a D&D cleric you get your own cult who will sacrifice virgins to Satan for you.

If only D&D was as awesome as Jack Chick makes it out to be.

[Voss]

You had to get to 'name' (9th, usually) level to get your horde of mindless followers & tower/monastery/castle, didn't you?

[tzor]

1197323721[/unixtime]]tzor, your last post was filled with crap two byte characters that had nothing to do with any known character encoding.

I'm guessing that it's the Microsoft quote things. When I need to get a good post (and I'm not at home with the Google spellchecker) I use word. Blame Gates. It's ok everyone else does.

[CalibronXXX]

Well I'll think about what you said and maybe check some other sources, but I won't be replying today, I didn't get nearly enough sleep last night and I'm going to bed very early.

I'm no expert on Catholic doctrine, but I had 7 years of Catholic school and some independent research in more recent years; and I formed my current opinion with no reason to hate or slander Catholicism.

[tzor]

1197328614[/unixtime]]Well I'll think about what you said and maybe check some other sources, but I won't be replying today, I didn't get nearly enough sleep last night and I'm going to bed very early.

Definitely get some sleep. I've found out that the older I get the more interest the sleep bank charges. Very annoying when I have a late meeting and I have to be at work 8 a.m. with my laptop up and running for a teleconference with India.

[Bigode]

Calibron: yes, I use the term as "supposedly follows Christ"; and it isn't up to you to say who follows Christ and who doesn't when not every Catholic knows the Old Testament - that they're misinformed doesn't make them less Christian, if they strive to follow Christ's example as told (regardless of its truth or lack thereof).

Tzor: do you really have the guts to tell me Catholicism took no influence from polytheistic religions at all?

Frank: while I mostly agree with you about the Coptics, but I actually would see some truth in distinction between using just the Gospels, and using the whole Bible.

[JonSetanta]

While it was pretty rude to deny someone's existence (I give people the benefit of the doubt, online or mentioned in religious text, w/e... Moses is as valid as Jesus is as valid as Satan, I seriously don't care) there is some validity there. Or at least, every religion is impotent, as I would be stricken down with plague, hellfire, beams of lightning from the clouds, etc, for being the irreverent git that I am.
Other hardliner religions (cults?) claim the punishment or reward for piety comes after death, to which I say: so be it.
You have your faith and devotion and live your life cringing under the weight of Santa Claus or Dracula's shadow or whatever, and I'll live mine rationally, passionately, and 'here and now'.
If I pay for such a 'sin', I'll ponder my mistakes in an eternity of having my scrotum bitten by rapid shrews.
But until then, it seems that both me and others outside of such tiny and insular sects get the better end of the deal.

And as I am still posting on the Interbutt to this day, making this statement, it would seem such 'divine retribution' simply isn't true.
Some wackjobs blame everyday mishaps on lack of faith, or as a teenager informed me (quite stoically) at a friend's party 3 years ago "You do realize you're gambling with your soul when you say things like that", but then they molest their own choirboys... so I'm just... ughh.. fed up with anyone that claims their faith is 'true'.
It just seems like a schoolyard argument that ends with "nu-uh!" or "yuh-huh!" when the kid can't think of anything else as a rebuttal.

That's pretty cool though, what Frank rambled about earlier, still has me intrigued.... so the next age is of Capricorn, eh?
I've been looking into "Egyptian Coptic Orthodox" but there's so many sources, hard to sort fact from crazybabble.

[CalibronXXX]

Sorry, busy day today, so I can't lay it all out, just time for a few quick points.

Bigode: Right, being misinformed doesn't make them less Christian, that's what I meant when I wrote "unless you're just ignorant of everything you're doing wrong."

Frank: The idea that just because the Coptics were the first people to branch off into their own denomination instead of just sticking to their own individual churches somehow makes them "right" regardless of anything is ridiculous; were the geocentrists "right" back before their was hard evidence of heliocentrism because they were first?

Additionally, my point was not that there aren't other gods to pray to, or that it's impossible to pray to other things than God, it was that we are instructed not to do so. I thought that was obvious.

Tzor: Sorry I didn't have much time between school and my sister's birthday dinner today to think about what you said. I will make sure to do so tomorrow.

[Username17]

I don't think that the Coptics are "right". But the books they use are closer to the original texts than what other Christians use. Let's take a step back: What version of the Bible do you put your faith in? Who was it compiled by? Which sub-books is it composed of? When were those books written and who were they written by? What language were they written in and how many times has it been translated?

Just off the top of my head, does your book contain the Gospel of Judas? Does your book contain the Apocalypse of John or the Apocalypse of Ezra? Are you seriously accepting that an anti-Roman rant about how the Caesars need to be brought down by the righteous is divinely inspired?

-Username17

[Koumei]

ITT:

Clerics should totally get special bonuses to strike anyone else who worships their own deity but doesn't have the exact same domains, alignment, class levels (Favoured Souls are right out), Holy equipment and ranks in Know: Religion.

And favourite colour.

Also:

1197310400[/unixtime]]
Which is not to say that YHWH wouldn't at some point allow the worship of other gods. Solomon's great temple for example had a side altar to Asherah (or Astarte, or Astoreth, or Isis as she is variously known).

FUCK YES!

And yet another thing I like has roots in some random old religion. I don't recall Isis wearing power armour though, which is entirely her loss.

[Jacob_Orlove]

1197469804[/unixtime]]ITT:

Clerics should totally get special bonuses to strike anyone else who worships their own deity but doesn't have the exact same domains, alignment, class levels (Favoured Souls are right out), Holy equipment and ranks in Know: Religion.

And favourite colour.

I'm reminded of the flavor text from INWO's Cast Out False Prophets card: "A heretic is someone who shares ALMOST all your beliefs. Kill him."

That game is awesome.