What do you see when you look at TGD?

[Draco_Argentum]

P.R. have you ever seen sites like Gather? Compared to those sites, this place is mild.

Gah? Its hard enough to convince people of stuff here when stuff gets heated.

---

Jesus Christ, if you're taking a break go and take it already. (That means stop posting and don't come back.)

Noone posts about leaving a messageboard unless they intend to respond to their I'm Leaving thread.

[Crissa]

Ice9 has a good point, but that's a common failing in threaded arguments, not something specific to here, but the medium. We should work on that.

However, the fatty comments were way out of line for behavior here.

...And as I said and tzor replied to, it's not the philosophy that puts him often in the wrong, but allies that misinform him. I could totally be in the same place if we changed the topic to something... We could be arguing about Teflon Flu, for instance, or dozens of other subjects where my allies would be more willing to take a position that science or lack of is against them because of some reason or other that they can't currently address.

So, yeah, if we were talking about fru-fru new agey stuff, yeah, my sources would be flakier. Of course, they think I'm too stodgy and conservative.

-Crissa

[tzor]

However, the fatty comments were way out of line for behavior here.

I'm tempted to throw in a nasty "get over it" type response (if only I could manage to do irony in a non verbally challenged communication medium), but seriously, when people start using that type of rebuttal argument, rejoice in that they are practically admitting that they can't come up with a better response to the actual argument; it's practically admitting defeat.

...And as I said and tzor replied to, it's not the philosophy that puts him often in the wrong, but allies that misinform him. I could totally be in the same place if we changed the topic to something... We could be arguing about Teflon Flu, for instance, or dozens of other subjects where my allies would be more willing to take a position that science or lack of is against them because of some reason or other that they can't currently address.

And here is where we differ; fortunately, I am a patient person. Sometimes people of strong convictions filter the reality that is before them; the facts that often conflict with other facts. In the process they often attempt to "dismiss" sources that may give some of that information that they want to filter out because it is inconvenient, becasue it upsets their preconceived conclusions.

[Fuchs]

The ironic thing with "conservative/progressive" views is that many "progressives" are actually very conservative when it comes to other (especially indigenous) people's traditions, which might get lost or changed when in prolonged contact with western culture.

The same people that bemoan the conservative mindset might cry havoc and start offensives to keep other people from ditching their old set of views in favor of more modern ones.

And vice versa, of course - many conservatives would only be too glad if others "progressed" to their views.

[Lago PARANOIA]

What's said in the political threads and what's said in the gaming threads should never influence the other.

That's one of my biggest rules on board.


Also, someone mentioned that I don't rant as often. This is mostly because 'angry caustic review-guy' is already overdone on the Internet. So there's no need to bother.

[JonSetanta]

Ice9: You wrote the word "fatness" in a general sense so your entire post is now null and void.

Oh shit.

[Sock Puppet]

There is simply so much to look at, poking around the closets here. Skeletons. Irony. A fish. Some guy without a face, or something.

First of all, let it be said that no one is likely to give a shit about my opinion - I'm not exactly a contributing member of this community or anything. I'm just a lurker, nothing more and nothing less. So I hold no grudges, and have no axes to grind. No one here has ever pissed me off, personally. (Hell, the only reason I even registered in the first place was because I wanted to utilize the “Ignore” feature because of a small number of crapweasels who frequently post on this site. I won’t name any names, because I did not actually come here for passive-aggressive hystrionics) I have no connection to any of you. But perhaps it might be interesting, at the very least, to get an outsider's perspective for a second or two.

I think it is absolutely fascinating that Psychic Robot, one of the most outspoken members of this site, gave us what amounts to a farewell speech which was laden with invitations to drop the ridiculous bullshit and negativity, and then – lo and behold – less than a week later, Frank Trollman starts a new thread which is a perfect crystallization of the very bullshit that PR was railing against. Frank, Mister “Overlord”, I expected better out of you. Don’t you have anything better to do with your time/life? I came to check out the Gaming Den in the first place because of, surprise surprise, the brilliant writing I found in the Tomes, expecting to find more of the same. The level of psychic static and intellectual roadkill that I ended up having to wade through was pretty damn dissapointing. And uninviting. And makes me question wanting to even lurk here sometimes.

On a semi-regular basis, someone will show up from out of the bounds of this little world, and start a discussion that runs contrary to the generally accepted opinions from around here. A 4E “apologist”, for example (as if they need to apologize enjoying a game that you disdain of) . Usually the discussion turns to shit instantly, and then gets dragged on far longer than it rightfully should, before the guest reveals that they only came to the Den in the first place to “find out if the rumors are true”. The rumors that the Den is full of a bunch of insular, xenophobic, close-minded assholes who greet any kind of dissenting opinions with meaninglessly-overused internet memes or disproportionate savagery, delivered in lock-step. And do you know what? The Den proves them right, every time.

So one person tries to call the Den out, does the whole “take a long hard look at yourself” routine (with a dash of “screw you guys, I’m going home”). And it has, apparently, fallen on utterly deaf ears. Instead of trying to push forward along the road that enthusiasm for the Tomes has set you upon, you have allowed yourself to become defined by that which you oppose. It’s either 4E, or Pathfinder, or even “moments when a piece of entertainment completely lost you” i.e. Shit That We Hate. The Den isn’t a gaming website; it’s an anti-gaming website. The very essence of your existence is that of negation.

And this isn’t about you making the world a better place, or educating the unwashed masses, or even smiting the unbelievers. It’s about you jerking each other off while crapping on someone else’s fun. Uggh. You don’t need to be tumor on the ass of the RPG world. If you don’t like the systems available, quit fvcking whining about “the math” and just make a better game. Come up with better material than the crap you so clearly disapprove of, or learn to define yourself better by staging the situations of your opposition and conflict. Pick your battles, instead of fighting them all.


I apologize, for the fact that I’ve been using declarative and overly-inclusive statements a lot here, so I’m going to have to recognize that my message isn’t meant for… most of you. When I say “the Den” what I really mean is a minority whose importance is inflated by their intensity, their post count, and their arrogant hubris. To everybody else, I apologize for the bother. And, I guess, the wall of text.

[Koumei]

Actually the main stuff I notice on TGD, especially with P_R gone, is all the stuff we make for D&D - the Tome stuff. Yeah, the "Let's talk about existing things" section is mostly talking about what we don't like, and the "Let's talk about politics" section is mostly what you get on any political section of a website, but more to the left.

But the"Stuff we're making" section makes up for any flaws shown by the rest of the site. For every hammered out class that is stamped and approved, that's worth a dozen "You're dumb" posts or at least 3 "X IS SHIT" threads.

[PhoneLobster]

Remember kids. Never oppose anything. Only support stuff.

Opposition is mean. Submit so people will like you.

Suuuubbbbmmmmiiiittttt....

[Draco_Argentum]

The rumors that the Den is full of a bunch of insular, xenophobic, close-minded assholes who greet any kind of dissenting opinions with meaninglessly-overused internet memes or disproportionate savagery, delivered in lock-step. And do you know what?

I'm suprised 20-30 regular posters on a messageboard are important enough to have rumours. Its also ironic that you mention this in defense of PR's post. He was one of the people most responsible for hounding newbies and stirring up stuff on other messageboards.

[virgil]

I think most of the rumours of the Den's infamy is from the Paizo boards. That seems to be where the majority of our new people hear about us.

I've noticed at least three or four people within the last week who specifically joined to defend Pathfinder. Psychic Robot and Roy, two of the more infamous posters here, are both people who migrated from Paizo.

[Koumei]

Two of the ones causing problems, too, don't forget that.

So either they've trolled them into coming here, or these are... secret friends P_R had?

[TavishArtair]

To be honest, there is a certain amount of sloppiness in thinking that allows you to generate certain errors. Founding a major argumentative point on bad math or similar is not acceptable. Even if the rest of your post IS reasonable, if, for instance, you hold Certain Views on probability, or just have reached a factually wrong conclusion regarding some numbers, no one can really respond to that in any manner that is not attempting to educate you on how you are incorrect. So for myself, I don't find it unreasonable putting the brakes on any interaction I have with someone until such time as they back up and admit a mistake, or just start the conversation over again without that. Really, if you want to talk game mechanics, but won't doublecheck your math, I can't really talk to you until such point in time as you do doublecheck your math.

[Caedrus]

I apologize, for the fact that I’ve been using declarative and overly-inclusive statements a lot here, so I’m going to have to recognize that my message isn’t meant for… most of you. When I say “the Den” what I really mean is a minority whose importance is inflated by their intensity, their post count, and their arrogant hubris. To everybody else, I apologize for the bother. And, I guess, the wall of text.

Look, if you're referring to three freakin' people, it's not okay to refer to them as "the den" any more than it is fair to refer to them as "the BG" or "the WotC" or "the paizo" (since these people have posted on these sites as well).

A 4E “apologist”, for example (as if they need to apologize enjoying a game that you disdain of)

I'm not sure you actually understand what the word apologist means.

According to dictionary.com, an apologist is "a person who makes a defense in speech or writing of a belief, idea, etc."

It has not a goddamn thing to do with saying you're sorry. It is in fact the accurate term for someone defending something. Before you whine about choice of words, maybe you should learn what they actually mean.

[Starmaker]

...Shit That We Hate. The Den isn’t a gaming website; it’s an anti-gaming website. The very essence of your existence is that of negation.

The first step to improvement is identifying what fucking sucks. People who are not interested in fixing shit stop there. That's fine. Discussing the suckage of a system you don't play is educative. Also, with the exception of Fatal and other systems of similar quality, the regulars here do play the games we discuss, 4e and PF included.

It’s about you jerking each other off while crapping on someone else’s fun.

We, as a community, don't raid. We don't spam LOL PAIZIL FAIL on Paizo, we don't teach Logic 101 at WotC, we don't fight for gender equality on GitP, so we're not crapping on your broken illogical misogynistic fun. By all means, have some. And if you look around a bit more, you'll see that insults ("suck a bag of cocks" and the like) are hurled not only on newcomers, so jerking each other off is out of the question too.

On a semi-regular basis, someone will show up from out of the bounds of this little world, and start a discussion that runs contrary to the generally accepted opinions from around here. (...) the guest reveals that they only came to the Den in the first place to “find out if the rumors are true”.

Who's trying to shit on whose fun again? Trolls come for the lulz, and we have fun at their expense. Serves them right.

You don’t need to be tumor on the ass of the RPG world. If you don’t like the systems available, quit fvcking whining about “the math” and just make a better game.

LURK MOAR
(couldn't resist)

When I say “the Den” what I really mean is a minority whose importance is inflated by their intensity, their post count, and their arrogant hubris.

Post count doesn't mean shit.

Frank, Mister “Overlord”, I expected better out of you.

Getting annoyed by his post count won't lead to anything productive.

The level of psychic static and intellectual roadkill that I ended up having to wade through was pretty damn dissapointing. And uninviting. And makes me question wanting to even lurk here sometimes.

It's fairly often that I see complaints about Frank's writing style. People bitched about it in the Tome threads on WotC, people are still bitching about it on Paizo out of the blue. Personally, I have never seen a more friendly style than that of the Tomes, and I have never seen a more friendly place than the Den. I have no idea what you are talking about.

[tzor]

A 4E “apologist”, for example (as if they need to apologize enjoying a game that you disdain of)

I'm not sure you actually understand what the word apologist means.

According to dictionary.com, an apologist is "a person who makes a defense in speech or writing of a belief, idea, etc."

It has not a goddamn thing to do with saying you're sorry. It is in fact the accurate term for someone defending something. Before you whine about choice of words, maybe you should learn what they actually mean.

Apologetics is the act of Apologists. Apologists are authors, writers, editors of scientific logs or academic journals, and leaders known for taking on the points in arguments, conflicts or positions that are either placed under popular scrutinies or viewed under persecutory examinations. The term comes from the Greek word apologia (απολογία), meaning a speaking in defense.

The term Apologist applies especially to early Christian writers (c 120-220) who took on the task of recommending their faith to outsiders

[mean_liar]

Eh. I think Sock Puppet has a point, in that the discussion should be more creative.

IMOI should be the most active forum, not IMHO.

That said, I'm not substantially contributing to either, so fuck me for being a hypocrite.

[JonSetanta]

Socky has a few good points but it must be sorted from the emotional context.

I'd wait before assuming any connection to PR though. Let's assume coincidence rather than assign causality.

[Lago PARANOIA]

Eh. I think Sock Puppet has a point, in that the discussion should be more creative.

IMOI should be the most active forum, not IMHO.

That said, I'm not substantially contributing to either, so fuck me for being a hypocrite.

It's My Own Invention will never be large, because the actual process of brainstorming and critique creates a very low signal to noise ratio.

This is good. Skipping all that but coming out with a (relatively) finished project generally results in unadulterated crap.

So I do not understand this statement at all when viewed from this point.

But a more prosaic explanation is that the vast majority of content that should be in IMOI actually resides in the IMHO forum. If we moved all of the material that should be in that forum to IMOI the latter would triple in size overnight; I am not kidding.

[koz]

Eh. I think Sock Puppet has a point, in that the discussion should be more creative.

IMOI should be the most active forum, not IMHO.

That said, I'm not substantially contributing to either, so fuck me for being a hypocrite.

I won't fuck you for being a hypocrite. Instead, I will constructively encourage you to contribute to the revitalised Tome project, or to comment on some of my stuff. Or, gods forbid, contribute your own!

Oh yeah, and suck a barrel of cocks, you hypocrite.

(this was Sinister when he's happy - take no offence as the last comment, it is both tongue-in-cheek and in jest)

[Orca]

But a more prosaic explanation is that the vast majority of content that should be in IMOI actually resides in the IMHO forum. If we moved all of the material that should be in that forum to IMOI the latter would triple in size overnight; I am not kidding.

This is true. The last thread I responded to - something by K about changing the wealth system - is creative, not negative, and in the IMOI forum.

[PhoneLobster]

This is true. The last thread I responded to - something by K about changing the wealth system - is creative, not negative, and in the IMOI forum.

That thread is fairly general in it's application and interest. It belongs in humble opinion.

My own invention should probably avoid anything but specific implementations.

[Sock Puppet]

Its also ironic that you mention this in defense of PR's post. He was one of the people most responsible for hounding newbies and stirring up stuff on other messageboards.

It struck me that Psychic Robot was calling himself out on this. A change of heart of that magnitude should not go unheeded. So, get this; he's a robot. And he became self-aware. That's right folks, you heard it here first, PR is Skynet.

[Sock Puppet]

... secret friends P_R had?

I know lots of Paizo folks have been appearing here lately, but that is a complete coincidence. I did not take the same (short)bus as them. I have actually been lurking here for well over a year already. (and a quick thanks to Sigma999)

[Lago PARANOIA]

It struck me that Psychic Robot was calling himself out on this. A change of heart of that magnitude should not go unheeded. So, get this; he's a robot. And he became self-aware. That's right folks, you heard it here first, PR is Skynet.

Then he should put his money where his mouth is.

I'll accept an 'I've been an enormous dick and try to be better in the future' post. I'll roll my eyes at a 'taking a wiki forum-break because this board has been too hostile even though I'm one of the people most responsible for making this board so unfriendly'.

I mean, really, what the hell? That's like Joe Pesci saying that the reason he's getting out of the mafia/casino business because his teammates are too homicidally violent.