Things that make you lose faith in the human race...

[Maj]

The "waah we cannot spank and yell" scare campaign is a long running right wing propaganda lie.

No, It's not.

I've listened to medical professionals threaten me with the abuse tag for allowing my child to eat his favorite food (steak) before they deemed him ready to eat meat, and continuing to drink out of a bottle after he had teeth.

Within the last six months, I have actually had people come up and tell me that what my husband was doing to my son was child abuse (Giovanni was sitting on his dad's shoulders, and the two were slowly spinning in a circle), and that I was abusive for allowing it.

The idea that we must "save the children" is so important that people actually feel it's their duty to get in your face and tell you what kind of a parent you are. It's made the true concept of abuse much less meaningful, and it make me absolutely livid when I have to deal with some smacktard who doesn't know the meaning of real abuse (my father was an abuser).

[shadzar]

In that case I feel sorry for you, shadzar. Is it tough being the dumbest person you know?

I should be asking you that Bill O'Reilly.

It pays the bills. How's it working out for you?

FUCK IT!

Play us out Sting.

[Gnosticism Is A Hoot]

Best part is, it's biological. The frontal lobe (ie. rational thought, responsibility, impulse control, etc.) of the brain doesn't finish developing until you're in your 20's. I'm 22, 23 in December, and when I think about what I was like at 15....Yeesh.

Try it. Find some people who are in their late 20's or in their 30's and ask them if they found themselves getting more responsible/insightful sometime in their 20's.

I think I've heard about this, but I hesitated to mention it because biology *really* isn't my area. I wouldn't be the slightest bit surprised if it was true, however.

[PhoneLobster]

I've listened to medical professionals threaten me with the abuse tag for allowing my child to eat his favorite food (steak) before they deemed him ready to eat meat, and continuing to drink out of a bottle after he had teeth.

Thats not the same thing as a spank and a yell. Those are things that can cause real and permanent physical damage.

Within the last six months, I have actually had people come up and tell me that what my husband was doing to my son was child abuse (Giovanni was sitting on his dad's shoulders, and the two were slowly spinning in a circle), and that I was abusive for allowing it.

And that is not "the man" coming down on you with "the law" preventing you from spanking and yelling. Its random strangers going "fuck that looks dangerous". Which may or may not have been justified, but still was NOT you being legally disallowed from doing it (let along doing something else entirely in the form of minor discipline) in any way shape or form.

The idea that we must "save the children" is so important that people actually feel it's their duty to get in your face and tell you what kind of a parent you are.

And they should. More than they do. Some people for instance force their kids into hateful and stupid religions. It would be nice if THAT stupid sort of shit were to stop.

[shadzar]

Random strangers need to learn to mind their own damn business.

"What about the children"...What about your own damn obese socially inept child. Maybe they should start with their own and show they know what children need before opening their mouths about other people's children.

If the government and society is going to raise all the children, then collect them all and do it. Otherwise shut the fuck up and mind your own business random fucking strangers.

I call random strangers that like to give their personal opinion about another person's personal life the Petticoat Junction Gossip Fence effect.

Cause that is all they do is be nosy and play gossip. The original trailer trash reality TV show was watching your neighbor, like Mrs Cravits on BeWitched.

[Kaelik]

Yeah, the whole "can't spank my children" shit is seriously just a scare tactic.

It's like when religious people say stupid shit like "You can say whatever you want in school as long as it's not prayer."

It's just bullshit spewing from their bullshit mouths were they take something serious, like abuse, and then pretend that because they can't abuse people any more, then all physical contact or punishment must be stopped.

They are just too fucking retarded to think in anything besides binaries.

[PhoneLobster]

If the government and society is going to raise all the children, then collect them all and do it. Otherwise shut the fuck up and mind your own business random fucking strangers.

Again... where does government and society come into this. "Random strangers" is not the same thing.

Also is there really anything about that random nosy gossipy scenario you portray that you think is in anyway new or special to modern times? People have almost certainly been like that since before the biggest religions in the world were worshiping small clay idols of giant fat women.

[shadzar]

Those random strangers yelling about this and that are the ones being heard by local and other government. That is where they come into it. Often rich fuckers with no children of their own that lobby for stupid shit that isn't any of their business.

[Maj]

Thats not the same thing as a spank and a yell. Those are things that can cause real and permanent physical damage.

You have the most fucked up definition of spaking and yelling if you seriously believe they're abusive.

Coming from a father who abused me physically, verbally, and emotionally, there is one hell of a gigantic line between smacking your child's bediapered tush when he's pulling garbage out of the trash can for the 50th time that day, and leaving a hand shaped bruise on your kid's back that doesn't go away for a week. There's a big difference between using a very loud, firm shout to get your child to avoid touching a hot stove, and screaming so loudly that all the neighbors can hear that your child is a little shit who should have never been born.

And that is not "the man" coming down on you with "the law" preventing you from spanking and yelling. Its random strangers going "fuck that looks dangerous".

No. It's not. Those nosy-faced weasels can and do threaten to call CPS, and that's more abusive to the family than the stupid shit they get in your face about.

There's one hell of a big difference between, "Excuse me, but that looks dangerous to me," and, "Your husband is abusing your son, and you are too, for letting your husband do that."

And they should. More than they do.

Fuck you. Stay the hell away from my kid.

[CatharzGodfoot]

No. It's not. Those nosy-faced weasels can and do threaten to call CPS, and that's more abusive to the family than the stupid shit they get in your face about.

One time when I was 11, my dad took me and my 4 year old sister to get hair cuts. In the parking lot, my sister decided she didn't want a hair cut and threw a temper tantrum. Two people called 911, and my dad probably would have been arrested if I hadn't been there to verify his story.

That's not to say that people should mind their own fucking business and not call the police when the think a kid is being kidnapped or abused. It's to say that kids can be unbalanced little fuckers and their angry emotional outbursts should generally not be viewed as signs of abuse. Be more worried about that quiet, absurdly well behaved girl who sometimes gets sent out of class because she starts crying for no reason.

[PhoneLobster]

You have the most fucked up definition of spanking and yelling if you seriously believe they're abusive.

You are misreading the comment.

It is your plan to ignore the advice of medical practitioners in matters that can seriously and permanently impact the health of your children that IS abusive.

My comment was pointing out that you equating people disapproving of your actual abusive behavior to them denying you the right to spank and yell a little bit (which is NOT abusive behavior) makes you dumb. Because it isn't the same thing.

Your medical practitioners were NOT telling you they would report you for child abuse if you dispensed basic discipline to them. They were telling you you might conceivably be held accountable if you actually physically harmed them through bad health care decision. NOT THE SAME THING MAJ.

Fuck you. Stay the hell away from my kid.

Aw... you want to indoctrinate your child into your crazy harmful cult do you?

[Sock Puppet]

One question to you, PL: Do you have any kids?

If you do not, then all of this crap you are spouting is just theoretical nonsense. Go away and actually raise a child for a few years, then maybe your opinion will count for anything.

If you do indeed have kids, then I retract my statement.

[Kaelik]

Yes. Only people with children can think that metal rods breaking bones, imposing beliefs on impressionable children they may never recover from, and otherwise fucking up your child, are abuse.

So I guess no one who doesn't have children themselves could ever claim that this is abuse either?

Nevermind that Maj herself is being a hypocritical idiot, since she claims not to force her beliefs on her children, and let them make their own minds, but then turns around to throw a fit when other people complain that she shouldn't be allowed to.

[PhoneLobster]

One question to you, PL: Do you have any kids?

You are a total moron aren't you?

I couldn't possibly be involved in raising kids if I don't have my OWN. Its a biological thing. Physically impossible to have child care experience without it. Yeah.

Nor can you without that biological magic actually happen to be well informed of the issues and have an intimate knowledge of say, teachers and the teaching profession.

Nor may you be permitted to be against oh, I don't know, beating them bloody, deforming their teeth for life, or indoctrinating them in crazy cults.

But have a kid and you can say ANY STUPID SHIT YOU LIKE. And demand the right to beat them, abuse them, rape them and poison them.

I do not have to have my own kids in order to judge Maj's rant against "thems nasty uppity doctors" daring to tell her how to raise her kid as being basically the same as those fuckers who starved their newborn to death on a diet of nothing but extra low fat soy milk.

And you are an idiot and a bad person for saying I can't.

[Maxus]

http://ursulav.livejournal.com/922613.html

Highly relevant to this latest discussion.

I think PL has sort of proved the point. Maj too, to an extent. But PL's a lot more judgmental and harsh and tends to view this crap as an absolute.

[Orca]

Here in NZ the law was recently changed - there was a defence when charged with assault on a child which allowed reasonable force in discipline, and historical precedents had built up which allowed it to be used when beating your kid with a riding crop, say. This defence was removed.

The sky hasn't fallen. The cases which right-wingers brought up as examples of where the removal of this defence created an injustice were ones where I for one am happy the parents were prosecuted - the one where a guy punched his 4 year old child in the face is one they're still trying to use.

[Koumei]

The cases which right-wingers brought up as examples of where the removal of this defence created an injustice were ones where I for one am happy the parents were prosecuted - the one where a guy punched his 4 year old child in the face is one they're still trying to use.

I wish you were joking and people weren't that stupid.

[Crissa]

Yeah, why must you have your own kids to have an opinion or experience in raising children?

First off, everyone was a child once. You got to see how you were raised, and hopefully, how other children were. Secondly, you could have relatives who were children when you were not, younger or older than you, and observe their behavior and raising. Lastly, there's entire careers based on taking care of children, and you don't need a child or a vagina in order to qualify.

Ugh. I really hate the defensive mother or father who goes on about how child-raising makes them more expert than others about children. My sister is seventeen years younger than I. That means I got to help raise a child at the age that many of my peers were beginning their families - and yet I don't have a child. I worked in a toy store. Amazingly, I had to deal with children and adults of all ages... And let me tell you, it isn't children who gave me the most problems. And I love toys and games and fairs and parks and hiking, and guess what? You meet alot of children when doing those things, because children often like those things, too!

And it just may be that said person can't physically reproduce. It's far more common than you'd probably guess. So don't go pulling that 'do you have children' crap on here.

-Crissa

[Username17]

"Speaking as a mother..." is about the stupidest fucking appeal to authority there is. Becoming a mother takes no skill whatsoever, and there are no licensing exams or mandatory training sessions involved. All it means is that you had sex and managed to stay alive for forty weeks after that. People managed that shit fine back when we didn't have any science or even language.

Come back when you have some fucking statistics. "I have a kid" is at best a single point anecdote and at worst a complete fucking nonsequitur. Whether or not you personally gave birth gives you zero authority to speak on any subject.

People use the "speaking as a mother..." bullshit to advocate against vaccines, to justify genital mutilation, and to defend child marriage.

There’s this one celebrity, Rosie O’Donnell, a talk show host, and she said this: “I don’t know anything about Afghanistan, but I know it’s full of terrorists, speaking as a mother.” So what is this "speaking as a mother" then? Is that a euphemism for "talking out of my arse"? "Suspending rational thought for a moment"? As a rational human being, Al-Qaeda are a loose association of psychopathic zealots who could be rounded up with a sustained police investigation. But speaking as a parent, they’re all eight foot tall, they’ve got lasers under their moustaches, a huge eye in their foreheads and the only way to kill them is to NUKE every country that hasn’t sent us a Christmas card in the the last 20 years!! Speaking as a mother.

-Username17

[Koumei]

My sister is seventeen years younger than I.

Same here, for my youngest sister. And sure, I wasn't the primary caretaker, but like you with your sister, I helped raise her and look after her from time to time.

And damn you, Frank, Bill Bailey's quote is exactly what I was thinking of when you started that response.

[Sock Puppet]

A typically sarcastic rant that actually contained a couple of valid points that deserve further clarification.

Okay, I was very short with my post, so I can understand that you didn’t like the taste of the vagueness of the statement that I made. Fired off, heat of the moment, and wasn’t really very well thought-out. Allow me to expound upon what I meant to say.

(Kaelik: none of this was directed at you. Yes, your hyperbole is very pretty. Still, keep it in your pants, okay dude?)

You don’t need a biological connextion to be a parent. A Legal guardian/stepmum/stepdad/adoptor whatever kind of a relationship in your life, ties you to a child whose life you’re simultaneously living with them. It’s a powerful bond, blah blah blah, it’s a connection that’s one-on-one, or one-on-two or three or five (or fucking nineteen if you’re the Duggars). If you’re a parent or you’ve been a parent, you know that, and know about that. I don’t need to tell you you’re a parent or define it for you, if you feel like you’re the most important thing in some child’s life, as they are in yours, then you know you’re a parent. Other people that you meet that recognize that about you immediately have a different understanding of your person, and your mutual shared experience. A pediatrician sees hundreds, or thousands, of kids. And of course a doctor has a better knowledge set about stuff than I do, but if one doc says that something is abuse, I guarantee I can find one almost instantly that will give a different opinion. Medicine, as a science, has a lot of grey area. So any good parent with half a brain (+1 for internet savvy, reasonably articulate) can take in all data or opinions or intuition and experiment and observe what is best for their kid’s health.

When my daughters were no more than 6-7 months old, I decided to gradually switch them from bottles and formula to mushy solid food (pumpkin, squash, sweet potatoe, carrot, parsnip, and beets makes her poops red). My own Mum then commented that when I was this age (then) that I was almost twice their size, and they (my parents) were feedin’ me cheeseburgers. I don’t think that’s abuse. Man, I fuckin looove cheeseburgers.

A teacher is trained to work with and educate kids, in batches by the dozens or even hundreds. Again, a great knowledge set from a professional field to draw on, and learn from. But it’s a completely different deal from your one-on-one bond. Your kids are you. Literally, a part of you went on and blossomed. I’d trust a parent’s opinion in how to raise their individual kid better than any professional, official, or administrator.

Which is not to say that there are not shitty parents. The world is full of shitty parents. It makes me fvcking sad sometimes to go out into the world when I chance to see so many people smoking/swearing/texting in front of/through their kids. I hope and pray to the darkest, eldest gods that our societal organism isn’t going to turn out the way I think it is.

What I have learned is this: the experience of loving and shaping a little you is a unique one. A good person, a good parent, is the best possible person to be making decisions about a child’s welfare. As much as I studied, and it was a lot, and as many books as I read, and there were a lot, it didn’t prepare me for what it really feels like. It… wasn’t what I thought. Not really at all, actually.You can’t learn it. You can only do it… I think I have decided that unless you are a parent, all of your words are as much as hot air. If you are a parent, then I’ll apologize, retract my statement, and respect your opinion.

Yeah, yeah. I’m a bad person and I should feel bad. Isn’t that put-down getting a little stale?

I think it’s time for y’all to go out and propogate; run the human race.
In the DNA-wars that define the continuation of our species, you Dead-Enders currently aren’t going anywhere. If you died tomorrow, would you want your genetic code to live on, or to be left in the dust? (and if you can't do it the traditional way, just sit tight. Cloning is just on down the road.)

[Koumei]

I think it’s time for y’all to go out and propogate;

That's quite a coincidence, because I think it's time for you to go fuck yourself with a whisk.

If you died tomorrow, would you want your genetic code to live on, or to be left in the dust?

I'd rather it die out with me - indeed, given the option I'd rather it all die out in one giant blast, but I'll make do with what I can: letting this set of DNA continue without creating more things bristling with genetic weaknesses.

[Username17]

Wow Sock Puppet, if I beat the shit out of you, would there be anything left at all?

-Username17

[PhoneLobster]

Yeah, yeah. I’m a bad person and I should feel bad. Isn’t that put-down getting a little stale?

I think that ones really Frank's thing. My personal favorite one is "Gee you really don't know anything about anything do you?"

But I largely give up on it when faced with such an incredible concentration of comments that could trigger it. Like your entire ludicrously moronic post.

"Blah Blah, Magical Bond, Mini-Me, therefore.... Right to Beat my fucking bitch kid and feed fucking babies fucking cheese burgers, fuck yeah!"

Uh huh. Riiiiiight... where's that you know... funny shirt with the long fancy sleeves...

Medicine, as a science, has a lot of grey area. So any good parent with half a brain (+1 for internet savvy, reasonably articulate) can take in all data or opinions or intuition and experiment and observe what is best for their kid’s health.

I really hope you are in no way responsible for the health and welfare of any actual human children and you are just a moronic 13 year old making shit up to sound big (which is what you sound like).

Because... damn... that IS really low fat soy milk baby starvation talk right there.

I'm alarmed they even let you out of the straight jacket long enough to type really.

[violence in the media]

What I have learned is this: the experience of loving and shaping a little you is a unique one. A good person, a good parent, is the best possible person to be making decisions about a child’s welfare. As much as I studied, and it was a lot, and as many books as I read, and there were a lot, it didn’t prepare me for what it really feels like. It… wasn’t what I thought. Not really at all, actually.You can’t learn it. You can only do it… I think I have decided that unless you are a parent, all of your words are as much as hot air. If you are a parent, then I’ll apologize, retract my statement, and respect your opinion.

Dude, this is the sort of arrogant "my reproductive organs give me magic powers" bullshit that people get sick of. Nobody starts off dismissing a parent's status until the parent starts in with the "you don't have kids" bullshit and dismisses whatever experience that person has. You yourself admit that there are many bad parents in the world, and yet I'm fairly certain that the possibility that you or anyone you know could actually be in that bad parent group doesn't really cross your mind. Not only that, but how bad of a parent does one have to be to be considered/labelled a bad parent? I'm going to go out on a limb and assume that even good parents can have bad spots, unless parenting is like the No True Scotsman line of thinking. I.e. No True Good Parent has Bad moments.

Now, the one thing that the parent generally does have in respect to their specific offspring is a compilation of information. Your child's doctor doesn't generally get to speak with their teacher, their sitter, or their friends, and vice versa. Not only that, but your child's teacher generally only sees them in the context of school, and not the myriad of environments and situations that they might be involved in on a daily basis. However, the value of that aggregation of information is only as good as the processing power of the person receiving it, and there are a lot of stupid people out there.

@Maj--Since you've described yourself in the past as somewhat of an outsider to the Mormon community in your area, the cynical part of me wonders if part of your experience is related to the harrassment effect that outsiders experience in those communities? I apologize for not having actual studies to back that up, but I've heard about the effect on several separate occassions from people living in, or who have lived in, Salt Lake City. It's apprently a similar social phenomenon to the Seattle Freeze?