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Sorry, different sketch....PhoneLobster wrote:You forgot to enumerate the weaponry in their arsenal.Neon Sequitur wrote:Congratulations, you've got CHURCH POLICE! (With apologies to Monty Python....)
Well, you learn something every day. I'll google it.PhoneLobster wrote:Technically its a bad Dali reference since actually the piece is a "Lobster Telephone" and I got it backwards.
What can I say, it just makes more sense as a username this way around.
But then again, it's Dali, so backwards is pretty much OK.
Fuck tha police
Comin straight from the underground
Young [EDITED] got it bad cuz I'm brown
And not the other color so police think
They have the authority to kill a minority
Fuck that shit, cuz I ain't tha one
For a punk muthafucka with a badge and a gun
To be beatin on, and throwin in jail
We could go toe to toe in the middle of a cell
Fuckin with me cuz I'm a teenager
With a little bit of gold and a pager
Searchin my car, lookin for the product
Thinkin every [EDITED] is sellin narcotics
You'd rather see me in the pen
Then me and Lorenzo rollin in the Benzo
Beat tha police outta shape
And when I'm finished, bring the yellow tape
To tape off the scene of the slaughter
Still can't swallow bread and water
I don't know if they [EDITED] or what
Search a [EDITED] down and grabbin his nuts
And on the other hand, without a gun they can't get none
But don't let it be a black and a white one
Cuz they slam ya down to the street top
Black police showin out for the white cop
Oh, then you are an idiot. Because infected slut princess has never posted anything worth reading at any time.
I heart this.hyzmarca wrote:The guards are always at least five levels higher than the PCs, no less. They have rings of teleportation that are keyed to only work for them.
They show up whenever the PCs do something stupid, instantly.
They never solve any other crime.
For comedy purposes, the Guards were created when an adventurer, during a night of drunken debauchery, accidentally tipped a bar maid with an enchanted coin of wishing after grabbing her ass. She said "I wish there was someone to stop you adventurers from messing stuff up and acting like you own everything" without knowing the magical power that was accidentally placed in her hands.
The Guards showed up instantly and apprehended the drunken adventurers. Since then, Guards have mysterious appeared whenever an Adventurer steps over the line of common decency.
Sadly, Manticores and Lich Kings aren't adventurers.
nockermensch wrote:Advantage will lead to dicepools in D&D. Remember, you read this here first!
Sorry for being AFK, but biking was fun, so whatever. Anyway, I'll do better than that and read it for you.PhoneLobster wrote:Take FIVE SECONDS to look up "Police" on wiki-fucking-pedia.
That's pathetic. Seriously? Foo usually reported to the local Bar, just as modern police report to judges. Nothing in the China section has anything to do with policing, except that the people who personally investigated crimes on behalf of the emperor were not the people who personally took arguments before the magistrate, and none of them had anything to do with security. Prefects = lawyers, not cops.Prefects usually reported to the local magistrate, just as modern police report to judges.
The "..." is where they explain that the magistrates' personal gang of thugs were his bailiffs, and not like police at all. Hell, calling him a magistrate is pretty generous, he's basically there to kill anyone who fails to pay their taxes.In Ancient Greece, publicly owned slaves were used by magistrates as police. ... Other duties associated with modern policing, such as investigating crimes, were left to the citizens themselves.
Plus, private people including senators also had paid gangs to "enforce" various things which may or may not be the law at the time.In most of the Empire, the Army, rather than a dedicated police organization, provided security.
By which they mean, keep the poor people in their fucking place. Also, they were the city planners, responsible for stopping plague and famine and keeping the water on, and so on. So they're like a modern city council, only with lethal force at hand should you disagree with their mandates.The first police force in the modern sense was created by the government of King Louis XIV in 1667 to police the city of Paris, then the largest city in Europe.
The constables being what I said earlier, when some fat old baron can't fulfil his duties to kill anyone who steps out of place by force of arms, he can appoint another person to do it for him. It's an actual murderocracy, where the reward for killing the right people is the right to kill people without offending anyone who matters.In London, night watchmen were the first paid law enforcement body in the country, augmenting the force of unpaid constables. They guarded the streets from 1663.
Still, in the fucking 17th century, the standard is that you appoint a pseudo-noble and he leads the fucking army to quell any rebellion and reluctance around taxation. Everything else is just dealt with by local people dragging their problems before some sort of judge or another (who in many parts of the world is just some hereditary asshole with no actual training or anything).In the colonial period, policing was provided by elected sheriffs and local militias.
My emphasis. So actual responsive patrols of modern police-like operations first appear in the 19th century. So you get police when you get THE INDUSTRIAL REVOLUTION. And before that it is just armed thugs belonging to people with enough currency to support them, and they often just use those gangs to murder people for random insults against anything at all, and if that sounds a lot like what nobles did through the middle ages that's because it is. Not police, just people with swords, who will fucking kill you, because you didn't tip your hat to the right statue or some shit. Good luck.On September 29, 1829, the Metropolitan Police Act was passed by Parliament, allowing Sir Robert Peel, the then home secretary, to found the London Metropolitan Police. This promoted the preventive role of police as a deterrent to urban crime and disorder.
These police are often referred to as "Bobbies" or "Peelers" after Sir Robert (Bobby) Peel, who introduced the Police Act. They became a model for the police forces in most countries, such as the United States, and most of the British Empire. Bobbies can still be found in many parts of the Commonwealth of Nations. The primary role of the police in Britain was keeping the Queen's Peace, which continues into the present day.
Yeah, I was expecting it sooner but I was expecting it.tussock wrote:... So actual responsive patr-NO TRUE SCOTSMAN-ols of modern police-like oper-NO TRUE SCOTSMAN-ations first appe-NO TRUE SCOTSMAN-ar in the...
This, incidentally, is completely full of shit. Basically everyone who had writing soon got around to using it to write down law codes. The Romans had a massive pile of laws, the Greeks had laws, the Babylonians had laws, the Germanic tribes had laws, Charlemagne standardized laws in his territory, post Norman Conquest Britain had laws.The very idea of a body existing to provide regulations didn't for most of it.
DSMatticus wrote:It's not just that everything you say is stupid, but that they are Gordian knots of stupid that leave me completely bewildered as to where to even begin. After hearing you speak Alexander the Great would stab you and triumphantly declare the puzzle solved.
Nothing matters, if you want to get all reductionist, but this thread was started when someone asked what the fuck to do in a typical murderocracy like D&D when the PCs break some trivial bylaw and the lowbie police turn up and try to arrest them.Desdan_Mervolam wrote:Tussock: My question is that, assuming you are right for a moment, what does it matter?
Cute, but in context I was talking about a regulated body of police officers. Old law books are tiny (well, ~400 pages), and an officer's "duties" in medieval laws are given in about 6-10 words worth of very broad concepts which he would delegate at his whim. The regulations books for modern police are thousands of pages. These are different things, and old governmental systems did not make modern-style regulations, even though there were indeed laws and courts of some fashion in each place.name_here wrote:Basically everyone who had writing soon got around to using it to write down law codes.
There, I fixed that for Tussock so he can say the same thing with greater clarity in far less words.tussock wrote:Cute, but in context I was talking about NO TRUE SCOTSMAN!.name_here wrote:Basically everyone who had writing soon got around to using it to write down law codes.
I preferred the post where you actually honest to god literally said that swords and wizardry existed in real history some time at least 300 years before police....@PL, dude, my first post in this thread was...
You're dodging the question. If your campaign makes more sense without organized police forces, more power to you. That has nothing to do with how long you can go back in time in the real world and find organizations that we would reasonably identify as a police force. That is the thrust of your arguement: That D&D shouldn't have police because police are a modern invention. So, since you didn't answer it, tell me: Why does it matter at all whether "Police" style city watches are considered normal in D&D settings? Why does it matter that people have police forces in games at all? Because that's your objection, and you haven't given any explanation as to why anyone should care except that it's not historically accurate, as if that matters at all.tussock wrote:Nothing matters, if you want to get all reductionist, but this thread was started when someone asked what the fuck to do in a typical murderocracy like D&D when the PCs break some trivial bylaw and the lowbie police turn up and try to arrest them.Desdan_Mervolam wrote:Tussock: My question is that, assuming you are right for a moment, what does it matter?
The correct answer is that police don't exist, and neither do almost all of our modern laws, so that situation should simply never happen. The actual functions of medieval societies are that you will piss someone off; so either they can beat you up (or they have a web of personal connections who can beat you up by proxy) or you just get away with everything. If you're enough of a bandit, someone might raise an army and come kill you, but that's expensive so maybe they'd rather buy more slaves to tend their penis.
DSMatticus wrote:It's not just that everything you say is stupid, but that they are Gordian knots of stupid that leave me completely bewildered as to where to even begin. After hearing you speak Alexander the Great would stab you and triumphantly declare the puzzle solved.
Oh, fuck off. It's answered right there, I even bolded it for you. Let me say it again.Desdan_Mervolam wrote:You're dodging the question.tussock wrote:Nothing matters, if you want to get all reductionist, but this thread was started when someone asked what the fuck to do in a typical murderocracy like D&D when the PCs break some trivial bylaw and the lowbie police turn up and try to arrest them.Desdan_Mervolam wrote:Tussock: My question is that, assuming you are right for a moment, what does it matter?
The correct answer is that police don't exist, and neither do almost all of our modern laws, so that situation should simply never happen. The actual functions of medieval societies are that you will piss someone off; so either they can beat you up (or they have a web of personal connections who can beat you up by proxy) or you just get away with everything. If you're enough of a bandit, someone might raise an army and come kill you, but that's expensive so maybe they'd rather buy more slaves to tend their penis.
Of course it does. D&D from the start seeks to model combat from 1960's medievalist movies where an heroic Robin Hoode personally fucks up the Reeve of Nottingham in extended man-on-man sword combat, plus fantasy Wizards and Orcs because it was the latest big thing at the time.That has nothing to do with how long you can go back in time in the real world and find organizations that we would reasonably identify as a police force.
This makes absolutely no sense. You are arguing that nobody could possibly exist whose job it is to stop Bob from stabbing Steve because mindflayers. Mindflayers do not factor into why Bob is stabbing Steve, nor is being hardcore enough to stab a mindflayer a prerequisite for being able to stop Bob from stabbing Steve. Bob is a turnip farmer who is pissed at Steve for getting frisky with his daughter or something.Tussock wrote:Having modern police patrols doesn't fucking work in D&D because the villains aren't first level nobodies, they're doppelgangers and mindflayers and 8th level PCs with a bad attitude, and the police will just die. And if you have police tough enough that they don't just die there's no fucking point in having PCs in the first place.
How is that even the slightest bit different from modern police?Tussock wrote:Because the story of Robin comes from before there were police. When the King or his Reeve had to personally deal with that shit by taxing up enough money (from a severely depressed economy and half-starved peasants) to raise an army and then find the fucker with it still in tow, pillaging for food as they went.
Because NO TRUE SCOTSMAN.hyzmarca wrote:How is that even the slightest bit different from modern police?Tussock wrote:Because the story of Robin comes from before there were police. When the King or his Reeve had to personally deal with that shit by taxing up enough money (from a severely depressed economy and half-starved peasants) to raise an army and then find the fucker with it still in tow, pillaging for food as they went.
Kaelik wrote:Because powerful men get away with terrible shit, and even the public domain ones get ignored, and then, when the floodgates open, it turns out there was a goddam flood behind it.
I see people here also hold incredibly stupid notions of what it is police do for a living. I suppose that's not uncommon.DSMatticus wrote:This makes absolutely no sense. You are arguing that nobody could possibly exist whose job it is to stop Bob from stabbing Steve because mindflayers.
Oh for fucks sake. D&D-land isn't "Medieval Europe + adventurers having adventures". It hasn't been that for a long, long time.tussock wrote: That, funnily enough, mirrors a romantic/heroic form of the medieval feudal structure that D&D was designed to mirror, where there's a lot of free-form delegation within your own patch, and a great many crime-like problems are just going to sit around until someone tough enough can try to solve them by force of adventure. Because D&D.
But whatever. "Enjoy" the ignorant anachronisms that are hurting your games.
So first off: that is not what you actually said. Your first argument was a stupid, steaming pile about how the existence of mindflayers meant police had to be supertough even though 99.99...% of their job description is shepherding turnip farmers. It was dumb, and it sucked a donkey's ball.tussock wrote:To your point though, DSMatticus, no, I am not. Try again. Here, I'll help. We actually want there to be problems for low level PCs to solve in a way that is not "calling 911". We also want there to be higher level PC-types busy working on higher level problems (like the local mindflayers) at the same time, so that they are not available when people "call 911".
Your point was a different one, so it needed a different but consistent argument. Here.DSMatticus wrote:your new argument that is nothing like your old argument
tussock wrote:Having modern police patrols doesn't fucking work in D&D because the villains aren't first level nobodies, they're doppelgangers and mindflayers and 8th level PCs with a bad attitude, and the police will just die. And if you have police tough enough that they don't just die there's no fucking point in having PCs in the first place.
Those are consistent positions. "Bad thing is bad for D&D" and "lack of bad thing is good for PCs" is the same thing. The activity of the PCs being how we experience the game.tussock wrote:To your point though, DSMatticus, no, I am not. Try again. Here, I'll help. We actually want there to be problems for low level PCs to solve in a way that is not "calling 911". We also want there to be higher level PC-types busy working on higher level problems (like the local mindflayers) at the same time, so that they are not available when people "call 911".
You may have heard of the fallacy of the excluded middle. There is room for things to have a strongly negative impact on your game without them having an infinitely negative impact. Being "bad for D&D" doesn't mean it's impossible to play D&D with. But thanks for being stupid in public anyway.If you think police are meaningless because somewhere there exists a high-level threat they couldn't handle, you're being an idiot. If you think the existence of police means there cannot possibly exist low-level problems, you're being an idiot. Neither of those is true, and you've said both.
