Identity Politics and Representation in Comics

[PhoneLobster]

Name here basically ninjad me on the earned rights quote. So I'll just take this bit...

But when you have a bunch of other guys ranting about SJWs (Sacrificial lamb actually bolded this bit by the way)

Who the fuck here is saying this? The answer is:

Nobody.

STOP IT with this Strawman Argument bullshit. Just stop.

...But I resent the rabid, overzealous "progressive" SJW assholes that want to crucify and slander people for rejecting multiple attempts to co-opt the identities of white straight male superheroes......all for the sake of perpetuating "progressive" political propaganda...

...I have refused to reward the comic book companies with actual money......because they persist in engaging in SJW pandering, and political bullshit that I think is horribly wrong.

So to be clear not only did you deny anyone had said that thing that someone actually said, you ALSO denied that anyone was ranting about SJWs... in the same post that you ranted about SJWs.

[Sacrificial Lamb]

I was going to remark on having a nominee for November's "Racist Poster of the Month," but I forgot that FatR already has the title.

If you could have just waited till December, Sacrificial Lamb, you could have had your own ignominy!

Islam is not a race, and I'm not going to be baited into this disingenuous bullshit. Just stop it.

Oh bullshit. Anti-islam ideologies are rooted in fucking racism. Because what the christians of the Western World and the racist atheists are really afraid of is "them dangerous brown people!" If Islam came from a caucasian population, it would be seen as just another flavor of judeo-christianity. But the fact that it never meaningfully expanded out of the Middle East and take hold in western european caucasian populations, as christianity and judaism did, and trade its originating language for something more European, as christianity and judaism did, it's still a Big Bad Scary Foreign Religion practiced by Evil Brown People.

White christian terrorists are overlooked as fringe lunatics. If white jewish terrorists exist, my ignorance of them shows how fucking overlooked they are, and Israeli army terrorism and genocide is only overlooked because any criticism of anything done by jews is immediately labeled as Antisemitic, and people don't want to be lumped in with nazis, so they shut up about their concerns over the murder of civilians under the watch of Netanyahu.

But extremist Islamists are brown, and those that aren't are so rare that a narrative of corruption is easy to craft, so racists are all up in arms about The Evils of Islam, despite the fact that the majority of domestic terrorism in the US is carried out by guys who were baptised and pronounce "Jesus" as "Ja-YEE-ZUS" and we have about as much to worry about from Islamists like DAESH as a guy in the middle of Death fucking Valley has to worry about from sharks.

You are not going to bait me with your slanderous bullshit. I refuse to play your game, so you might as well just drop it.

To be frank, no one gives a shit. The point is you're a bigoted shitbag who ignores all of the tragedies and terrorist attacks perpetuated by Christians at the behest of their insane fucking holy book and leaders, but are perfectly willing to condemn 1.5 billion people in one fell swoop like somehow (metaphorical) sin is a contagious disease instead of personal culpability for wrongdoings committed.

Are you sure you're not a Christian? Because that sounds really fucking Christian.

Someone specifically asked me a question about my religious affiliation, which implies that someone here actually gives a shit. And if you didn't give a shit, then you wouldn't have made your obnoxious follow-up comment. So spare me your disingenuous nonsense.

And no, I'm not Christian.....nor does Christianity have anything to do with my moral and ethical objections against Islam. But no matter. I refuse to be baited on my specific thoughts on this, and I also refuse to make this into a thread about Islam.

If you want to do that, carry on without me.

[Leress]

So racism is wrong but bigotry is OK.

Well not okay, everyone in this tread has bigotries and can cause them to make strawmen and not actually listen to what is said or just lump people all together who happen to say a couple of things that are the same as the bigot's hated group. Myself am a bigot towards flat-earthers, but only in matters pertaining to the shape of the planet.

And sjw propaganda is somehow worse than racist or Cold War propaganda (the latter fucking oozes out of comics despite it being over for more than my lifetime) because reasons.

I don't think it is worst at all, but I can see why people who don't like propaganda, who see it as propaganda wouldn't like it.

[virgil]

If making Thor a woman is just baseless SJW pandering, or whatever, then wasn't the initial creation of Barry Allen just as pandering to white supremacists by making ANOTHER Flash who was a white male instead of a completely new character to stand on its own two feet?

[Sacrificial Lamb]

Name here basically ninjad me on the earned rights quote. So I'll just take this bit...

But when you have a bunch of other guys ranting about SJWs (Sacrificial lamb actually bolded this bit by the way)

Who the fuck here is saying this? The answer is:

Nobody.

STOP IT with this Strawman Argument bullshit. Just stop.

...But I resent the rabid, overzealous "progressive" SJW assholes that want to crucify and slander people for rejecting multiple attempts to co-opt the identities of white straight male superheroes......all for the sake of perpetuating "progressive" political propaganda...

...I have refused to reward the comic book companies with actual money......because they persist in engaging in SJW pandering, and political bullshit that I think is horribly wrong.

So to be clear not only did you deny anyone had said that thing that someone actually said, you ALSO denied that anyone was ranting about SJWs... in the same post that you ranted about SJWs.

You deliberately omitted the important part, purely for the sake of winning a semantic argument. Fuck you.

Perhaps I inadvertently assumed that you were saying that I said that "SJWs, blacks, and women haven't earned any rights". If so, my mistake for misreading your sentence. The section in bold below, is what I was looking at.

But when you have a bunch of other guys ranting about SJWs and how blacks and women haven't earned any rights, and how comics have just been RUINED with girl germs and racial, religious and sexual impurity... I don't think a complex case needs to be made, you can just largely point at their posts and say "wow, check out that asshole".

You are correct though....that I'm ranting about SJWs, because they're a plague upon the comic book industry. In fact, they're just a plague, period.

But I have NEVER said that SJWs, blacks, and women "haven't earned any rights".....and if you dare to even imply that, then you can save us all some time.....and fuck right off.

[Leress]

Just for clarification, Lamb what is your definition of SJW?

[Darth Rabbitt]

I should add that having minorities take up the mantle of white male superheroes has been going on in comics since at least 1971.

Someone specifically asked me a question about my religious affiliation, which implies that someone here actually gives a shit. And if you didn't give a shit, then you wouldn't have made your obnoxious follow-up comment. So spare me your disingenuous nonsense.

And no, I'm not Christian.....nor does Christianity have anything to do with my moral and ethical objections against Islam. But no matter. I refuse to be baited on my specific thoughts on this, and I also refuse to make this into a thread about Islam.

People give a shit because you brought up Islam as the special snowflake of bad religions. Now Islam is fucked up, but... do you know how many Christian characters have been shown "unearned legitimacy" (your words, not mine) in comics? Like to the point where it's the default that a character is Christian (in worlds that frequently feature the Norse and/or Greco-Roman pantheons as things that unambiguously exist, which basically make Wotanism and Hellenism the "true" faiths)? You don't get points for opposing the horrors of religion if it only happens to be your least favorite religion. All of the Abrahamic religions follow repulsive doctrines and frankly Islam doesn't come off as any worse (or better) than Christianity in that regard. That is the reason people are calling you out on your bullshit--it's bullshit.

So racism is wrong but bigotry is OK.

Well not okay, everyone in this tread has bigotries and can cause them to make strawmen and actually listen to what is said or just lump people all together who happen to say a couple of things that are the same as the bigot's hated group. Myself am a bigot towards flat-earthers, but only in matters pertaining to the shape of the planet.

I was mocking Sacrificial Lamb's (implied) claim that not being racist somehow means that he(?) isn't bigoted. Fuck that pedantic bullshit.

And sjw propaganda is somehow worse than racist or Cold War propaganda (the latter fucking oozes out of comics despite it being over for more than my lifetime) because reasons.

I don't think it is worst at all, but I can see why people who don't like propaganda, who see it as propaganda wouldn't like it.

My point there was that there has been way more fucked up propaganda than "minority pandering" in comics, but no one's complaining about that.

[Prak]

You are not going to bait me with your slanderous bullshit. I refuse to play your game, so you might as well just drop it.

So you're philosophically opposed to Christianity and Judaism for the dangers that extremists within those religions pose? What about Hinduism, or does that get a pass because the Hindi extremists are attacking Muslims?

[Kaelik]

Prak, drop this religion shit, you led off your discussion by accusing atheists who don't like islam of being racists even though that very label probably gives you another reason. I'm not saying it is impossible for someone to be right in accusing someone of being a racist for hating islam, I am saying that it is impossible for you to be right except by accident, because you are both and idiot and really bad at this.

The comic book companies should NOT try to CO-OPT pre-existing characters for the sake of furthering a POLITICAL AGENDA.

I agree, and that is why I stopped reading comics in 1939, when they co-opted pre-existing characters for their POLITICAL AGENDA against the axis. And then co-opted pre-existing characters for their POLITICAL AGENDA against the commies, and then their in the 70s their POLITICAL AGENDA against their own previous POLITICAL AGENDA of commy hunts.

Oh wait, man, it sure is starting to sound like Comics has a 70 year history of co-opting pre-existing characters for the political agenda of the minute, and anyone complaining about it now is an idiot because the comics they read growing up were comics where pre-existing characters were being co-opted to fit a different political agenda, and you are basically just someone whining about how the music industry was better when you were 14 because they were about making good music, but NOW they are all sell outs who also try to interject their politics into their music.

[PhoneLobster]

You deliberately omitted the important part, purely for the sake of winning a semantic argument. Fuck you.

No... I deliberately omitted the other part because Name Here already posted the reply I was going to for that bit, which was "actually one of the people I specifically named said precisely that and I quoted it one fucking page ago you idiot".

I was just cleaning up the leftovers.

As for your new lines of defense, you made your own choices in selective and partial bolding. Don't come complaining to me.

You ALSO chose to wail that...

Who the fuck here is saying this? The answer is:

Nobody. (hey look I partially bolded this bit)

STOP IT with this Strawman Argument bullshit. Just stop.

So some stupid defense that you personally never said the thing I didn't directly attribute to you and which had been clearly quoted on the same thread not long before hand... doesn't really hold up.

You told us NOBODY had said it and it was just a strawman. Along with the SJW rants being part of the same thing right before just the next, and not even the latest, in your ongoing succession of panty twisting SJW hate orgasms.

[Sacrificial Lamb]

Just for clarification, Lamb what is your definition of SJW?

I'm not really sure I want to answer that, because this question feels a lot like "bait" to me.....but I will humor you.

I see modern "social justice warriors" as people who believe in a radical left-wing ideology that combines third-wave feminism (not egalitarianism), "progressivism", and "political correctness". As far as I'm concerned, it's a culturally oppressive social movement that tries to censor free speech, and promote fringe lifestyles....by using political PROPAGANDA, social shaming, doxxing, stalking, and more.....while actively discriminating against heterosexual white men, because of perceived patriarchal white male "privileges".

SJWs artificially elevate social, ethnic, cultural, or religious groups of people that they believe have received the least amount of “privilege” in the past, and then they use Internet activism in the form of mobs and community purges to target those whom they determine to have greater amounts of "privilege".

SJWs have been targeting various forms of entertainment in recent years, mostly for the sake of a political agenda. Some examples:

* science fiction awards
* computer games
* roleplaying games
* comic books
* movies
* television

I'm not gonna delve into the non-entertainment segments that SJWs have targeted, because that would be an endless argument.....and a pointless tangent to this discussion. I also don't want to elaborate on the definition of SJWs beyond this.

But let's just say that I have become extremely wary of the current manifestation of emotionally toxic political "progressivism" that's been permeating various types of games and entertainment. I don't like it, and I resent the attempt to inject SJW identity politics into every facet of modern entertainment. And even more than this, I resent being labeled as either ignorant or a BIGOT when I express that I find all this to be distasteful.

And that's all I want to say about that.

[Sacrificial Lamb]

You are not going to bait me with your slanderous bullshit. I refuse to play your game, so you might as well just drop it.

So you're philosophically opposed to Christianity and Judaism for the dangers that extremists within those religions pose? What about Hinduism, or does that get a pass because the Hindi extremists are attacking Muslims?

You still won't get me to rise to the bait. I refuse to play.

[Sacrificial Lamb]

You deliberately omitted the important part, purely for the sake of winning a semantic argument. Fuck you.

No... I deliberately omitted the other part because Name Here already posted the reply I was going to for that bit, which was "actually one of the people I specifically named said precisely that and I quoted it one fucking page ago you idiot".

I was just cleaning up the leftovers.

As for your new lines of defense, you made your own choices in selective and partial bolding. Don't come complaining to me.

You ALSO chose to wail that...

Who the fuck here is saying this? The answer is:

Nobody. (hey look I partially bolded this bit)

STOP IT with this Strawman Argument bullshit. Just stop.

So some stupid defense that you personally never said the thing I didn't directly attribute to you and which had been clearly quoted on the same thread not long before hand... doesn't really hold up.

You told us NOBODY had said it and it was just a strawman. Along with the SJW rants being part of the same thing right before just the next, and not even the latest, in your ongoing succession of panty twisting SJW hate orgasms.

"Hating" SJWs doesn't provide me with orgasms, but rather mild stomach pains. I'm a grown-up though; I can deal with it.

[Kaelik]

SJWs have been targeting various forms of entertainment in recent years, mostly for the sake of a political agenda. Some examples:

* science fiction awards

Yeah I was super pissed when a blogger SJW led a campaign for a bunch of people who don't even read books to nominate specific candidates they haven't read for the Hugo awards and distributed a specific slate of votes to their followers that was designed explicitly to prevent any deserving candidate from even being nominated while making sure that only people who's political beliefs they agreed with could even be selected...

Oh wait, I forgot, that was the righteous and just campaign of the persecuted conservative white male Sci-Fi author who just doesn't get any respect, and therefore vote bombs with a bunch of people who don't read sci-fi books.

[Leress]

Just for clarification, Lamb what is your definition of SJW?

I'm not really sure I want to answer that, because this question feels a lot like "bait" to me.....but I will humor you.

I see modern "social justice warriors" as people who believe in a radical left-wing ideology that combines third-wave feminism (not egalitarianism), "progressivism", and "political correctness". As far as I'm concerned, it's a culturally oppressive social movement that tries to censor free speech, and promote fringe lifestyles....by using political PROPAGANDA, social shaming, doxxing, stalking, and more.....while actively discriminating against heterosexual white men, because of perceived patriarchal white male "privileges".

SJWs artificially elevate social, ethnic, cultural, or religious groups of people that they believe have received the least amount of “privilege” in the past, and then they use Internet activism in the form of mobs and community purges to target those whom they determine to have greater amounts of "privilege".

SJWs have been targeting various forms of entertainment in recent years, mostly for the sake of a political agenda. Some examples:

* science fiction awards
* computer games
* roleplaying games
* comic books
* movies
* television

I'm not gonna delve into the non-entertainment segments that SJWs have targeted, because that would be an endless argument.....and a pointless tangent to this discussion. I also don't want to elaborate on the definition of SJWs beyond this.

But let's just say that I have become extremely wary of the current manifestation of emotionally toxic political "progressivism" that's been permeating various types of games and entertainment. I don't like it, and I resent the attempt to inject SJW identity politics into every facet of modern entertainment. And even more than this, I resent being labeled as either ignorant or a BIGOT when I express that I find all this to be distasteful.

And that's all I want to say about that.

No, I'm not baiting since I have seen people use it to mean slightly different things. Your definition is like Sargon of Akkad's definition except he would call that "progressive" regressive.

[Prak]

[bullshit about SJWs]

Edit: "SJW" continues to basically be a Meninist shibboleth. Or some weird equality anti-shibboleth.

editedit:

You are not going to bait me with your slanderous bullshit. I refuse to play your game, so you might as well just drop it.

So you're philosophically opposed to Christianity and Judaism for the dangers that extremists within those religions pose? What about Hinduism, or does that get a pass because the Hindi extremists are attacking Muslims?

You still won't get me to rise to the bait. I refuse to play.

And yet you keep responding, and you won't tell us what makes you hate Muslims.

[AndreiChekov]

I was annoyed by the Thor sex change.

Then again, I've always been annoyed enough that Thor had blonde hair and was beardless.

[note_paper]

Edit: "SJW" continues to basically be a Meninist shibboleth. Or some weird equality anti-shibboleth.

Meninist? That self proclaimed parody twitter account? That would seem to make the phrase rather silly if it was in fact coined by someone making a joke.

[DSMatticus]

You are not going to bait me with your slanderous bullshit. I refuse to play your game, so you might as well just drop it.

You still won't get me to rise to the bait. I refuse to play.

Okay time out, because this is ridiculous and sad.

Being challenged to state and defend your beliefs is not nefarious or sinister. It's how this shit works. When Donald Trump is asked substantive questions and he dodges them with a bunch of noise and bullshit and then whines that the questions weren't fluffy softballs carefully designed to let him run his mouth freely about his prepared talking points, Donald Trump is the asshole - not the reporter or moderator who asked the question.

When people confront you on (or ask you to explain) an apparent inconsistency in your beliefs and you respond with a bunch of righteous indignation and lame dodging, you, too, are the asshole. No one can force you to participate in the conversation, but if you're going to do so while insisting that there is no onus on you to defend yourself from criticism because [reasons], then you're completely fucking worthless. You're an untestable hypothesis. You're an unfalsifiable claim. You're Donald fucking Trump - a total absence of substance hidden behind so much pointless noise.

So put the fuck up or shut the fuck up. If you want to spew your brand of bullshit, be prepared to defend it. If you aren't prepared to do so, keep them to your fucking self. The onus really is on you to explain how you justify your personal distinction between christians (who I presume you do not think are worthy of condemnation as a group, given you likely named several characters who have canonically been Christian for part of their canon) and muslims (who you very clearly do think are worthy of condemnation as a group).

[Prak]

Edit: "SJW" continues to basically be a Meninist shibboleth. Or some weird equality anti-shibboleth.

Meninist? That self proclaimed parody twitter account? That would seem to make the phrase rather silly if it was in fact coined by someone making a joke.

If the term was started as a joke, that makes the fedora'd neckbeards who use it seriously all the more laughable.

[Sacrificial Lamb]

Prak, drop this religion shit, you led off your discussion by accusing atheists who don't like islam of being racists even though that very label probably gives you another reason. I'm not saying it is impossible for someone to be right in accusing someone of being a racist for hating islam, I am saying that it is impossible for you to be right except by accident, because you are both and idiot and really bad at this.

The comic book companies should NOT try to CO-OPT pre-existing characters for the sake of furthering a POLITICAL AGENDA.

I agree, and that is why I stopped reading comics in 1939, when they co-opted pre-existing characters for their POLITICAL AGENDA against the axis. And then co-opted pre-existing characters for their POLITICAL AGENDA against the commies, and then their in the 70s their POLITICAL AGENDA against their own previous POLITICAL AGENDA of commy hunts.

Oh wait, man, it sure is starting to sound like Comics has a 70 year history of co-opting pre-existing characters for the political agenda of the minute, and anyone complaining about it now is an idiot because the comics they read growing up were comics where pre-existing characters were being co-opted to fit a different political agenda, and you are basically just someone whining about how the music industry was better when you were 14 because they were about making good music, but NOW they are all sell outs who also try to interject their politics into their music.

You're definitely making my case for me, with your continual snark.

So, yes. I just don't feel welcome in the comic book hobby or industry any more. The "progressive" SJWs have made the comic book hobby and industry into an emotionally toxic environment, and "shitlords" like me no longer have a place in mainstream comics.

And I don't care about war propaganda from World War II, and if we're being really honest....you probably don't either. My father fought in World War II, not me. That was decades ago, during a completely different era in human history......and not particularly relevant to the radically "progressive" bizarro identity politics bullshit occurring TODAY in MODERN comic books. What you snarkily bring up is not relevant to the current discussion, but then you know that....which is why you brought it up.

Honestly, you sound very young to me....like you're in your twenties. And I seriously doubt that you're over age 35.

If you're capable of being intellectually honest, you would acknowledge that straight white male comic book legacy characters are absolutely being co-opted in comic books, movies, and TV shows (in larger numbers than ever recently) by minority characters. We can argue about the reasons for it, but it definitely started happening within the past ten years......when the Internet became a much more powerful force for the communication and dissemination of ideas.

Suddenly, we had a bunch of mouth-breathing pseudointellectuals.....who could post in relative anonymity, and who were much more radically liberal than the previous generation of liberals, while incessantly whining about their lack of "privilege", and deciding to make their emotional pain into the world's pain.

I do recognize that comics have always been a partial reflection of real world events and social events, but doesn't mean I have to buy into modern "progressive" politics and aggressive PROPAGANDA.....especially if I neither like it, nor agree with their message.

But like I said, I EXPECT ridicule and scorn from "progressives" when sharing this point of view. And the truth is that the bullshit on this thread is actually very mild compared to other such bullshit that occurs outside this forum. There are assholes out there who try to close their "ideological opponents" Internet accounts, and who contact the employers or families of people who disagree with "progressive" SJW groupthink.

You've only been a snarky asshole. You may be boneheadedly wrong, but guys like you are the last thing I need to worry about.

[Sacrificial Lamb]

Edit: "SJW" continues to basically be a Meninist shibboleth. Or some weird equality anti-shibboleth.

Meninist? That self proclaimed parody twitter account? That would seem to make the phrase rather silly if it was in fact coined by someone making a joke.

If the term was started as a joke, that makes the fedora'd neckbeards who use it seriously all the more laughable.

Meninism is a parody movement, but some people have inevitably taken it seriously.

It happens.

[Sacrificial Lamb]

You are not going to bait me with your slanderous bullshit. I refuse to play your game, so you might as well just drop it.

You still won't get me to rise to the bait. I refuse to play.

Okay time out, because this is ridiculous and sad.

Being challenged to state and defend your beliefs is not nefarious or sinister. It's how this shit works. When Donald Trump is asked substantive questions and he dodges them with a bunch of noise and bullshit and then whines that the questions weren't fluffy softballs carefully designed to let him run his mouth freely about his prepared talking points, Donald Trump is the asshole - not the reporter or moderator who asked the question.

When people confront you on (or ask you to explain) an apparent inconsistency in your beliefs and you respond with a bunch of righteous indignation and lame dodging, you, too, are the asshole. No one can force you to participate in the conversation, but if you're going to do so while insisting that there is no onus on you to defend yourself from criticism because [reasons], then you're completely fucking worthless. You're an untestable hypothesis. You're an unfalsifiable claim. You're Donald fucking Trump - a total absence of substance hidden behind so much pointless noise.

So put the fuck up or shut the fuck up. If you want to spew your brand of bullshit, be prepared to defend it. If you aren't prepared to do so, keep them to your fucking self. The onus really is on you to explain how you justify your personal distinction between christians (who I presume you do not think are worthy of condemnation as a group, given you likely named several characters who have canonically been Christian for part of their canon) and muslims (who you very clearly do think are worthy of condemnation as a group).

I refuse to elaborate on my views about Islam on this site, because I know how you guys operate. I refuse to hijack this thread, and turn it into the "Islam Thread". So just forget it. If you want to declare a moral, ethical, and intellectual victory over me....then knock yourself out. I will not stop you.

[violence in the media]

Create a black superhero. Or a female superhero. Or a gay superhero. Knock yourself out. Creating such characters doesn't bother me in the least, because I have no fucks to give. But I resent the rabid, overzealous "progressive" SJW assholes that want to crucify and slander people for rejecting multiple attempts to co-opt the identities of white straight male superheroes......all for the sake of perpetuating "progressive" political propaganda.

Would Captain America, Superman, Batman, etc succeed as characters in the comics marketplace if they were created within the last 5-15 years? Would they succeed if they had to follow their historical evolution, just with a start date delayed until sometime in the 21st century? How many other corny-ass characters were created alongside them that languish in obscurity because they never caught on with an audience?

I mean, given the cultural zeitgeist, I can understand why people would take issue with the suggestion that they can have representational equality in 20-50 years, once "their" characters have "paid their dues" or "earned their place" or whatever. Especially since any of these new characters have to compete directly with established characters with multi-decade legacies, brand recognition, and blockbuster movies.

In a way, comics have done this to themselves. They've established that people other than the original masked man can be the Spider Man, the Flash, or the Batman. Anyone can be a Green Lantern, or an Iron Man, or a Thor. Given that, it's totally understandable why people would ask why these people always seem to have to be "normal" white dudes. Like, if you're distributing the Power Cosmic to someone on earth at random, heterosexual [implied christian] white males are actually not something with a super-high percentage chance of winning that lottery.

[Prak]

Or even a super high percentage chance of being a good choice...