Making Humans less vanilla in fantasy settings

[Chamomile]

That doesn't mean that the NPCs can't be mechanically distinct, though.

While that IS true that also puts you into the old boat of, "So you need an extra set of different mechanics for NPCs, why?". You might be able to answer it with a reasonable excuse.

What I answer it with is "no, you don't." All NPC elves are drawn from pretty much the same template, so they're all level 2 experts with points in Craft (Wood Stuff) and Being An Arrogant Prick, but there's no mechanical incentive for PC elves to take those skills even though they can.

[PhoneLobster]

If all other races have -2 STR and humans have +0, it is equivalent to all the other races having +0 and humans have +2, for example.

Equivalent except for being a really bad mechanic with additional operations with negative numbers for no good reason. Also, D&D style base attribute racial differences are among the most problematic examples of racial pigeonholing and so therefore are bad.

What I answer it with is "no, you don't."

I thought when you said mechanically distinct you meant "uses distinct character building mechanics" rather than "selects different things using the character building mechanics". My bad. I blame shadzar. I see no reason why we all shouldn't.

But it is wandering a little off topic, which is, apparently...

the answer to that often is 'fuck it, play something I'm most familiar with, which is a human; ignore the setting-specific flavor text as much as possible, we're ready to rock'.

And trying to get past that is about as fruitful as writing an article on how to be a better roleplayer and putting it in the DMG.

You know I'm not sure what you want this thread to be about. And while that, like everything else is probably Shadzars fault since he is shadzaring it up pretty hard, the premise you seem to want here Lago...

Are you saying there shouldn't be a low setting familiarity entry option for character builds? That is largely a matter of preference.

Are you saying that you want or need to do something to FORCE familiarity with setting materials and force more setting specific character builds? That's hardly an issue with Humans specifically.

Are you saying you want people to build more interesting less "faceless nobody" characters? Again, hardly an issue with Humans specifically and a customizable background option kit in place of racial attributes would certainly help with that too.

Are you saying, well, one of a number of other seemingly just as pointless things?

I don't think we can really discuss a potential solution, or the implications of the "problem", or anything more than the obliquely related "ALL racial stereotypes suck" until you make it a bit more clear. As it is I feel you are going on some sort of incoherent paranoid fantasy fueled by a lack of sleep and your obsession with TV Tropes.

[Aryxbez]

i still must ask:

why use the word "human", if you are not using the word to stand for humans and what the word means?

Because "human limitations" of the term is like 1-5th level, and in D&D, characters power levels change beyond that when they hit 6th+, and don't want something as miniscule as "race" to limit that.

Also Stubbazubba's suggestion on racial backgrounds done in "races of war" like way, sounds rather promising far as the take on races go.

Far as benefits for race, don't really think the benefits should obligate a player to want to play character certain way because of it, or punish for going against it. That is for example, not having races determine attribute bonuses/penalties (have that player choose, like in 4th edition, two attributes go up by +2 of their choice,done), Favored class, or even things as wacky as banned/restricted actions..(FantasyCraft and their no swimming/kicking Dwarves). If anything, should want to help players break the mold with a race, they are the PC's after all. So actually have players making Orc Wizards, Gnome Strongmen, acrobatic Centaurs, whatever. As perhaps some games, some people actually want to play a Dwarf who "kicks" people and "swim good" (among other athletic actions of course).

Also, as Lago said, not much can really do about changing humans, since so hardcoded into the culture to think humans as the "versatile" race anyway? Regardless of the change, or stay the same, so long as they're a viable race as the others, sounds good to me.

[Username17]

Humans are not always versatile. In master of Orion, the Humans are the ones that get a diplomatic bonus. In Warlord of Mars, Humans are super strong. In Age of Wonders, Humans excel at conquest. And so on.

Having humans be something that is a good fit for a specific Race/Class combo is pretty easy to justify and a lot of games do it.

-Username17

[shadzar]

i still must ask:

why use the word "human", if you are not using the word to stand for humans and what the word means?

Because "human limitations" of the term is like 1-5th level, and in D&D, characters power levels change beyond that when they hit 6th+, and don't want something as miniscule as "race" to limit that.

the problem with that is that at 6th level, and lower humans are still humans, they jsut have those things like magic, which removes them form this world and its physics, but NOT from being humans.

what do you think happens at 6th level that stops them form being humans?

[Aryxbez]

Because "human limitations" of the term is like 1-5th level, and in D&D, characters power levels change beyond that when they hit 6th+, and don't want something as miniscule as "race" to limit that.

the problem with that is that at 6th level, and lower humans are still humans, they jsut have those things like magic, which removes them form this world and its physics, but NOT from being humans.

what do you think happens at 6th level that stops them form being humans?

So? those lower level 1-5th level humans are within the "realistic" powerlevel range, and thus can be "realistic" humans all they want then. Yes, at 6th+ level, a human character will still have that down as still being of the Human race. Seemed to me were talking as that somehow being problematic, when you said yourself, they're still Human. So...what, all is well, they just transcend their own limitations is all, and that's that. Plus, have tons of stories where humans exceed the limitations of the world, and its physics.

At 6th level, Characters level appropriate abilities will be what transcend their former realistic human limitations. Be those Magic, Charles Atlas Super power, Divinity, Having Tiger blood, or whatever. So these 6th+ level humans, are in fact still of the human race, just obviously their abilities are not (also suggest to you to check out my signature on power levels, might find it helpful).

After all, if you want a game where Humans stay within human limitations, then as everyone on here will pretty much tell you, go play E6, or don't play past 5th level, simple as that. Hell, there's many other crappy RPG's that like to flaunt some kind of "realism" I'm sure.

[shadzar]

i hate to break it to you (and i dont know nor give a fuck what e6 is...) but an evolved human, is still a human.

i guess since we now live to ages of 70~100 on average compared to real medieval people such as though we build the game around living to around 50 if lucky means we are no longer human, or were medieval/middle ages humans not really humans?

dirt farmer done good, was born and still is a human.

the fact that this human exists within a world of magic, does not make then less human or more than human, or anyone else made "more human than human". (White Zombie~Astrocreep 2000)

you are having the same problem others had when trying to write GAndalf as a D&D wizard and with all his power and prowes found out by the things he did and spells he used, that he wa only around 4th~5th level and for some reason cant accept that.

but you fail to understand D&D may be based a lot on Tolkien, but its magic is not, it is Vancian which removes Middle Earth characters form translating into a familiar simulacrum into D&D.

the entire VS articles in Dragon was a funny farce, because, and especiially, Merlin v Gandalf, couldnt exist as they are from worlds that follow very different rules.

so you can use humans at the baseline in fiction without even including them. just have your pseudo-human humanoids and make the white or black (Forgotten Realms has no africa) or tan or blue or yellow or what the fuck ever like i said before.

they were built off of humans, and everything else can be built off your pseudo-humans, just dont call your pseudo-humans...human, because they are not.

they are just the human-equivalent within your fiction.

i dont even recall Tolkien using the word "human", he just called it "the world of man". that let us relate to them as if they are humans or the closest thing to it we could see, without being bound by what you want to call human limitations.

a 1st level human wizard already violate so-called human limitations, in case you didnt know that.

[PhoneLobster]

an evolved human, is still a human.

And here was me thinking it was a Super Sayan, or maybe a Graveller or maybe a Victreebel.

... wait... does this mean I'm actually an Australopithecus? Daaaaammn...

No wait. I think he means any character that is (or ever was) human is limited by the story conventions that would apply to an Australopithecus. Wait...

dirt farmer done good, was born and still is a human.

Unless you trade him after a certain level of peasant hit level 25 of peasant and he turns into a Graveller.

the fact that this human exists within a world of magic, does not make then less human or more than human

Unless they use fucking magic.

(White Zombie~Astrocreep 2000)

(Purple Antelope~Starwanker 8923)
(Margarine Dragon~Spacebastard 3453)
(Mouldy Angel~Galactictwat 1234)

... or was that a horribly formatted quote? From someone no one cares about?

you are having the same problem others had when trying to write GAndalf as a D&D wizard and with all his power and prowes found out by the things he did and spells he used, that he wa only around 4th~5th level and for some reason cant accept that.

And you have the same problem as someone who tried to write up Pikachu and didn't realize he evolves into Raichu AHAHAHA! Wait... what are we talking about?

but its magic is not, it is Vancian which removes Middle Earth characters form translating into a familiar simulacrum into D&D.

...that doesn't even parse well enough to make fun of.

the entire VS articles in Dragon was a funny farce, because, and especiially, Merlin v Gandalf, couldnt exist as they are from worlds that follow very different rules.

If only they could meet. Using magic. Like say. Magic. Or alternatively, the magic of franchise cross over fan fiction. If only.

But it is impossible. The only thing which is possible is them existing in their own worlds, which they are from, which are totally real. It's some sort of real alternative universe anti-migrant worker wizard thing, pan-multiverse Law, a secret of multi-reality known only to the Shadzarians.

Also robot chicken skits, a funny farce, couldn't ever happen, I mean Voltron doesn't break dance in real life what were they... wait, WTF are we talking about here?

so you can use humans at the baseline in fiction without even including them. just have your pseudo-human humanoids and make the white or black (Forgotten Realms has no africa) or tan or blue or yellow or what the fuck ever like i said before.

Humans. They can never evolve beyond their limits with magic powers, or evolution stones, or fiction, but paint them fucking purple and you are good to go.

just dont call your pseudo-humans...human, because they are not.

A purple human is not a human anymore, and you better not get them mixed up! After all if we have learned nothing else from reality it is that humans with different skin colors or ear shapes are NOT HUMAN ANYMORE and should never be mistaken for humans.

Holy Fuck It! Lizard Man IS a Lizard Man! Daaaaaammmmnnn...

a 1st level human wizard already violate so-called human limitations, in case you didnt know that.

Wait... what... I though zombie white creep space star 9000 said that it is impossible to violate human limitations with magic. What the hell? You should totally get Shadzar earlier in the post to explain himself to you later post Shadzar, he is totally fucking calling you a liar! But fair enough I think we can both agree early post Shadzar is a crazy bastard.

But sadly it can never happen in reality, for early post Shazar and late post Shadzar are from different worlds that follow different rules. And while each is very real individually their fictional but real rules cannot be broken and their two real worlds can never meet in fiction because that would not be real.

PS. I should never reply to a Shadzar post, but that one was a goldmine, A GOLDMINE I SAY.

[Chamomile]

-snip-

You don't know anything, do you? You evolve into a Graveler at level 25, not by trading. When you trade, you evolve into a Golem.

[PhoneLobster]

You don't know anything, do you? You evolve into a Graveler at level 25, not by trading. When you trade, you evolve into a Golem.

Would you believe you actually ninjad my edit on that while I was checking it up on Serebii.

The pokemon trivia is like lightning around here. Good thing I didn't run with an obvious mispelling of Ratticade or whatever...

[Username17]

Gandalf totally had a rap battle against Dumbeldore.

-Username17

[PhoneLobster]

That would only be possible if they were in fact different characters.

[RadiantPhoenix]

That would only be possible if they were in fact different characters.

Multiple personalities.

[Aryxbez]

i hate to break it to you (and i dont know nor give a fuck what e6 is...) but an evolved human, is still a human.

http://dungeons.wikia.com/wiki/E6_(3.5e_Sourcebook), again, to repeat in my last post...So??

i dont even recall Tolkien using the word "human", he just called it "the world of man". that let us relate to them as if they are humans or the closest thing to it we could see, without being bound by what you want to call human limitations.

Eh "man" is pretty much a way of saying human really, especially in such context, but that's not all that important. Also don't think I define "human limitations" or if I did, they'd be a helluva lot more awesome than they are right now, in real life, that's for sure.

you are having the same problem others had when trying to write GAndalf as a D&D wizard and with all his power and prowes found out by the things he did and spells he used, that he wa only around 4th~5th level and for some reason cant accept that.

a 1st level human wizard already violate so-called human limitations, in case you didnt know that.

Alright? going above and beyond what is normal, sounds good to me, and not sure when I indicated having a problem with Gandalf as a low level character...In fact, quite the opposite, I'm already aware, and totally fine with Gandalf having only been a 4th-5th level wizard. As well that, his concept would need to advance (in capabilities at least) if wants to continue onward to 6th,7th,9th,14th..etc.

[RadiantPhoenix]

I'm already aware, and totally fine with Gandalf having only been a 4th-5th level wizard.

What does Gandalf have to do with humans, other than the fact that he interacted with them?

[shadzar]

but Tolkien tricked you good, like many others. he purposefully left it open to "what is man", while calling his world Middle Earth.

you can interpret it to mean human, or you can interpret it to be a species like humans just enough to relate to them.

Tolkien used the word "man" as opposed to others because of a specific trait or limitation that "man" has, mortality.

we dont live on Arda, nor were we created by Illuvasar (sp?). that being said the races of D&D were lifted directly from Tolkien.

remember halflings began as hobbits, treants as ents, and wraiths as nazgul, in D&D.

and you dont have to define real-world human limitations, every human living has already done that, and those limitations are expanded with each passing moment. but still why use a word that has so much meaning, if you are not using it for those meanings?

[Stubbazubba]

Tolkien's narrator specifically addresses the modern audience, talking about how Elves and Hobbits and Dwarfs have become very rare sights these days, in this world, in the Age known as the Dominion of Men. He writes that Hobbits are very good at avoiding us Big Folk, thus no one really sees them any more. Unless you expect us to believe that the narrator's audience was also a fantastic race of Men much like humans, but advanced upon Arda's own timeline, so they are a fantastic counterpart to modern humans, but not, in fact, one and the same, which assertion would be wholly unfounded, then I think there is a preponderance of evidence pointing to the fact that Men in Tolkien's works eventually became us.

[shadzar]

which is different as you say than "being us".

which is a good reason he just called them Men, so that they could be anything, but still possibly be a Middle Earth, that later became the Earth we know today.

but still, they are not us, because we do not cast magic, cavort around with dwarves and halflings, fight orcs, goblins, trolls, etc....

it is funny how so often people have told me to reskin bards or psionics to something else and/or rename them, but the use of the word human cannot be done the same, and just rename the other-wordly creatures and re-fluff them.

why so attached to the name?

[Chamomile]

[Stubbazubba]

but still, they are not us, because we do not cast magic, cavort around with dwarves and halflings, fight orcs, goblins, trolls, etc....

Tolkien explains this in the Appendices, which you must not have read, because King Elessar goes around and pretty much slays all the goblins and orcs and trolls in the world, and the few remnants of the evil races gradually fade away from the world stage, while the dwarves and halflings avoid us more and more. Most of the Elves have left Middle-Earth by the Fourth Age, and they continue to leave until all that's left in M-E are Shakespeare's fairy-elves. And no human ever casts magic in any of Tolkien's works, anyway. The closest they get to magic is magical items, and in fact, all of the magical items are produced by employing the craft of the Elves, or magical beings like Sauron. Men are completely mundane. Now, if you say that Gandalf was a Man who cast magic, we'll know you haven't got the first necessary mite of Tolkien scholarship to, in fact, use this analogy. Tolkien overtly states that as Men come to dominate Middle-Earth, our world history begins to take over.

Relevant quote:

Tolkien wrote many times that Middle-earth is located on our Earth.[1] He described it as an imaginary period in Earth's past, not only in The Lord of the Rings,[2] but also in several letters.[3] He put the end of the Third Age at about 6,000 years before his own time,[4] and the environs of the Shire in what is now northwestern Europe (Hobbiton for example was set at the same latitude as Oxford),[5] though in replies to letters he would also describe elements of the stories as a "... secondary or sub-creational reality" or "Secondary belief".[6] During an interview in January 1971, when asked whether the stories take place in a different era, he stated, "No ... at a different stage of imagination, yes."[1][7] However, he did nod to the stories' setting on Earth; speaking of Midgard and Middle-earth, he said: "Oh yes, they're the same word. Most people have made this mistake of thinking Middle-earth is a particular kind of earth or is another planet of the science fiction sort but it's just an old fashioned word for this world we live in, as imagined surrounded by the Ocean."[1] He continued to make references to its being "... a brief episode of History" of Earth as late as Autumn 1971.

[shadzar]

i read the wikipedia thing many times and even cleaned it up a few...but my reading of the books were in childrens format as school board saw fit during the 80...so it had no appendices and probably had other parts cut knowing them.

in either case...this is not earth Earth as he implies, but as with all fiction, and remember Tolkien was a linguist that created books to use his language creation in, that would be a ficitonal Earth. We really dont fit anywhere in the timeline.

Likewise we don't turn into Morlucks and Eloi in billions of years.

"Human" in fiction is used to say what human is, if you want something else, you dont call it human. so if you are unhappy with humans in an RPG, then make a demihuman race, and jsut dont call them humans, but like Tolkien, that can still be based off of human-kind.

[Stubbazubba]

No, you're ignorant and wrong, and now blaming your ignorance on the decision of your 80's school board? Grow up and take responsibility for your ignorance! Moreover, in the 30-year interim you never thought to pick up the progenitor of all modern fantasy and give it a second read? Or at least do a little Google search to find out all the interesting tidbits and lore that spawned the world-building hobby?

The man specifically says,

"I am historically minded. Middle-earth is not an imaginary world. The name is the modern form (appearing in the 13th century) of midden-erd>middel-erd, an ancient name for the oikoumene, the abiding place of Men, the objectively real world, in use specifically opposed to imaginary worlds (as Fairyland) or unseen worlds (as Heaven or Hell). The theatre of my tale is this earth, the one in which we now live, but the historical period is imaginary. The essentials of that abiding place are all there (at any rate for inhabitants of N.W. Europe), so naturally it feels familiar, even if a little glorified by enchantment of distance in time.(Letters, no. 183)[23]

"...if it were 'history', it would be difficult to fit the lands and events (or 'cultures') into such evidence as we possess, archaeological or geological, concerning the nearer or remoter part of what is now called Europe; though the Shire, for instance, is expressly stated to have been in this region...I hope the, evidently long but undefined gap* in time between the Fall of Barad-dûr and our Days is sufficient for 'literary credibility', even for readers acquainted with what is known as 'pre-history'. I have, I suppose, constructed an imaginary time, but kept my feet on my own mother-earth for place. I prefer that to the contemporary mode of seeking remote globes in 'space'. However curious, they are alien, and not loveable with the love of blood-kin...(Letters, no. 211)

He specifically did not want to create a demi-human race and call them something else, Tolkien's Men were Men, they were not called human because the languages which he studied and those that he invented would never have used such a modern word for a race, but that does not change the fact that Tolkien specifically identifies Middle-Earth as real-world Earth, in an imaginary historical period which eventually flows to modernity.

In short, Tolkien was vociferously opposed to doing exactly what you're saying he's doing. Go away.

[shadzar]

again, he was a linguist, not a writer... his imaginary timeline, created with it an imaginary Earth. no matter what he thinks otherwise...it is so.

Harry Potter does not take place in the world we live on, but a fictional Earth, and imaginary one.

oh to have seen your reaction when War of the Worlds first aired on the radio....your naivete is priceless.

[angelfromanotherpin]

And no human ever casts magic in any of Tolkien's works, anyway. The closest they get to magic is magical items, and in fact, all of the magical items are produced by employing the craft of the Elves, or magical beings like Sauron. Men are completely mundane.

Let's not go nuts. Beorn changes into a giant bear, the Mouth of Sauron 'learned great sorcery,' Denethor and his sons have prophetic dreams, and so on. It seems more likely that magic gradually faded out of the world, just as it faded significantly between the First Age and the Fourth.

[Stubbazubba]

again, he was a linguist, not a writer... his imaginary timeline, created with it an imaginary Earth. no matter what he thinks otherwise...it is so.

Harry Potter does not take place in the world we live on, but a fictional Earth, and imaginary one.

oh to have seen your reaction when War of the Worlds first aired on the radio....your naivete is priceless.

You're a moron and an exceedingly immature troll. You're bordering on functionally illiterate and complicate things further with a healthy dose of willful ignorance. Your pretension and arrogance are laughable, and your superiority complex blinds you to any possible value to be gleaned from intellectual discourse. Your outdated modes of thinking make you an obsolete fossil intellectually and socially. You're a sociopath with no redeeming qualities. You can't form an argument, you can't even write coherent sentences. Your endless rambling and poor conventions are evidence of serious mental and functional deficiency. When someone points out the unfounded assumptions or logical inconsistencies in your own arguments, you ignore everything and talk about a tangential line or two in their post. You play the victim card with alarming frequency. You blame others for your inadequacies and actively attempt to derail unrelated topics into your own personal soap box. You are not welcome here and you know it. Go away.