Actual Anatomy of Failed Design: Diplomacy

PhoneLobster · Post by **PhoneLobster** » Sun Jan 08, 2012 1:51 am

Lago PARANOIA wrote:Low-level or out-and-out mundane people tricking god-kings and actual gods is a huge thing in mythology.

So what? We don't have to include everything and the conceits and assumptions of the basic level system ALREADY completely ignore the SAME source material examples of low level or out and out mundane people fighting, defeating and killing god kings and actual gods and crap.

If you are prepared to say fuck no David as a 1st level slinger does NOT get to defeat a 30 million hit die giant then you can say the same thing about him seducing it in a bar.

Your assertion thus doesn't make any sense to me.

And you aren't even making an actual assertion. WHY must level 1 barmaids defeat level 18 characters again? In ANY context?

ishy · Post by **ishy** » Sun Jan 08, 2012 1:52 am

I wouldn't want to play in a game where everybody at lvl 1 is a lvl 1 barmaid so they can seduce god kings to do their fighting for them thank you very much.

Lots of stories and bullshit appear in mythology that has no place in a game system. Just because something happens in a story does not make it a must in game.

Chamomile · Post by **Chamomile** » Sun Jan 08, 2012 3:17 am

Aladdin insta-gibs a very high-level end boss by tricking him. In game terms, that is obviously a high-level ability, because it allows you to instantly defeat a high-level character. So for game balance reasons alone you can't treat the ability to con level 20 characters as a level 1 ability. Potentially Aladdin is actually a really high-level Diplomat with just a few levels in Thief, or maybe he just got really lucky.

Alternatively, you could model this system by having combat and diplomacy be two separate tracks which have their own separate levels, so a level 18 Barbarian is still effectively an NPC-classed peasant in terms of diplomacy if he never spends some character resources on getting himself some social defenses.

Lago PARANOIA · Post by **Lago PARANOIA** » Sun Jan 08, 2012 4:10 am

Are you guys crazy or something?

Aladdin does not talk to Jafar and Genie to get their guards down to gank them. He tricks Genie into giving him a free wish and also convinces Jafar to wish for something really stupid, which instantly kills him. He doesn't bend their minds, he doesn't like Orpheus cause blatantly supernatural shit, and he doesn't use the opportunity to make some ineffectual sword swing insta-kill them, because he friggin' couldn't even if Jafar opened his fanged mouth and invited him to spend the next 10 minutes stabbing.

Also:

Exodus 32:11-14 (WEB) wrote: 11 Moses begged Yahweh his God, and said, "Yahweh, why does your wrath burn hot against your people, that you have brought forth out of the land of Egypt with great power and with a mighty hand? 12 Why should the Egyptians speak, saying, 'He brought them forth for evil, to kill them in the mountains, and to consume them from the surface of the earth?' Turn from your fierce wrath, and repent of this evil against your people. 13 Remember Abraham, Isaac, and Israel, your servants, to whom you swore by your own self, and said to them, 'I will multiply your seed as the stars of the sky, and all this land that I have spoken of I will give to your seed, and they shall inherit it forever.'" 14 Yahweh repented of the evil which he said he would do to his people.

Chamomile wrote:Potentially Aladdin is actually a really high-level Diplomat with just a few levels in Thief, or maybe he just got really lucky.

Which is fucking retarded, because Aladdin's diplomacy skillz don't always work. He doesn't seduce Jasmine at the outset despite throwing a really impressive parade and charming the pants off of her father. He certainly doesn't convince the captain of the guard to stop chasing him or not throw him into the dungeon. In the second sequel, he's unable to convince his own father not to have him fight to the death.

If Aladdin really is a high-level diplomat, how can he fail at such basic tasks so often?

ishy wrote:I wouldn't want to play in a game where everybody at lvl 1 is a lvl 1 barmaid so they can seduce god kings to do their fighting for them thank you very much.

Lots of stories and bullshit appear in mythology that has no place in a game system. Just because something happens in a story does not make it a must in game.

PhoneLobster wrote: So what? We don't have to include everything and the conceits and assumptions of the basic level system ALREADY completely ignore the SAME source material examples of low level or out and out mundane people fighting, defeating and killing god kings and actual gods and crap.

Why the fuck not? Are you telling me that when the Barbarian-King picks up a 1st-level village girl and marries her she can't convince him to do shit like spare her parents or not torch their homelands? Are you seriously telling me that a cook can't try to convince an otherwise suspicious sorcerer-king to try his favorite dish on his 40th birthday? Or are you trying to tell me that he can, as long as it isn't poisoned?

That shit you're espousing is total videogame thinking.

PhoneLobster · Post by **PhoneLobster** » Sun Jan 08, 2012 4:53 am

Lago Going-Off-The-Deep-End wrote:Why the fuck not? Are you telling me that when the Barbarian-King picks up a 1st-level village girl and marries her she can't convince him to do shit like spare her parents or not torch their homelands?

1) The barbarian king only marries a 1st-level village girl if he is doing it as part of a batch of 5000. Otherwise he marries 16th-20th level princesses and necromancer queens and crap. Because 1st level village girls aren't even capable of pleasing him. Because 1st level village girls physically cannot survive the might of his embrace. Because of, to put it simply the basic assumptions that already exist in game because of the level system. Barbarians kings do not even hang out at taverns with 1st level bar maid characters. If they did then your level system was a bit of a fucking waste of time because they are still having the same encounters with the same opponents they did as level 1 beggar kids and that is just not how we do things in D&D. I KNOW it isn't even how YOU advocate we do things in D&D.

2) If for some INSANE reason the barbarian god king has a 1st level wife AND she survives long enough to be noticed among the 15000 like her and manages to get a word in edge ways... then NO she fucking DOESN'T bend the barbarian king to her will. She can ASK for something and the Barbarian king may deign to charitably provide it but she is not fucking MAKING him do anything what else do you think having a level advancement system even MEANS?

3) PS. The Cook is a level 16 Medusa. And if for some reason the Sorcerer King was even CAPABLE of recieving sustenance from the dishes a 1st level human could produce then NO those dishes would not be sufficient to sway his decisions and NO that cook would NOT have the "poison concealment" abilities to create a dish that would pass the Sorcerer kings detection abilities intact OR even the poison detection abilities of his team of 12th level succubus food tasters. Now the 16th level MEDUSA cook. Can do that. But. THE SAME STORY AS THE 1st LEVEL WIFE. What is your problem Lago? Don't you understand what a level based system is? You accept it and widely use it for you know absolutely everything else in the game suddenly you forgot how it fucking works? and why it fucking works that way?

As for your ranting about Aladdin, you are getting bogged down in details that are irrelevant AND insane. So people pointed out that your examples in source material are irrelevant because the level based system ALREADY ignores the same examples of endless physical underdog victories for the SAME reasons with the SAME benefits in the SAME way. And your response? To Say "fuck you I have examples from source material!" well hoop dee doo, what fascinating OLD NEWS that we had just addressed already, you sure are convincing me you aren't just Hand Wringing over NOTHING... AGAIN.

Chamomile · Post by **Chamomile** » Sun Jan 08, 2012 4:54 am

Lago PARANOIA wrote:Aladdin does not talk to Jafar and Genie to get their guards down to gank them.

...And?

Chamomile wrote:Potentially Aladdin is actually a really high-level Diplomat with just a few levels in Thief, or maybe he just got really lucky.
Which is fucking retarded, because Aladdin's diplomacy skillz don't always work. He doesn't seduce Jasmine at the outset despite throwing a really impressive parade and charming the pants off of her father.

Jasmine is a named character who's only resistance to Aladdin is to not be charmed. It should not come as much of a surprise that she is resistant to being charmed.

He certainly doesn't convince the captain of the guard to stop chasing him or not throw him into the dungeon. In the second sequel, he's unable to convince his own father not to have him fight to the death.

Yeah, and both of these are actually kind of weird, because as a general rule, Aladdin's diplomacy works flawlessly. He talks a merchant out of disarming Jasmine, talks Genie into giving him a free wish, charms the Sultan (albeit with a big huge parade doing most of the work for him), totally does charm Jasmine except it just takes him a musical number to do it, cons Jafar into removing himself as a threat, talks the Sultan into accepting Iago back into the palace, convinces Iago to turn against Jafar despite great personal risk, and I'm pretty sure I'm actually missing a few from the third movie because it's been a while since I've seen that one.

Honestly, the only thing that's weird is that the guard captain never gets persuaded or conned, and as a guard captain, he might just be built to be resistant to Aladdin's flavor of fast talk, while being more susceptible to, say, Jafar's. The King of Thieves, on the other hand, is the King of Thieves and I would put him on par with Jafar for plot importance and villainous threat.

Also, while I can imagine a Barbarian King choosing not to burn his wife's village down and murder her family just because hey, there's another village to burn down ten miles over and he probably wants his bride to be reasonably happy regardless of whether she's capable of convincing him to do anything actually important, like give away riches to the poor or not invade a wealthy neighbor. If she can do those things, then by definition she has a high-level power, since she just thwarted an invasion from the level 18 barbarian god king and his hordes.

RadiantPhoenix · Post by **RadiantPhoenix** » Sun Jan 08, 2012 5:10 am

PhoneLobster wrote:2) If for some INSANE reason the barbarian god king has a 1st level wife AND she survives long enough to be noticed among the 15000 like her and manages to get a word in edge ways... then NO she fucking DOESN'T bend the barbarian king to her will. She can ASK for something and the Barbarian king may deign to charitably provide it but she is not fucking MAKING him do anything what else do you think having a level advancement system even MEANS?

The diplomacy minigame is HOW YOU FUCKING FIGURE OUT if the barbarian king grants your puny 1st level PC's request.

Chamomile · Post by **Chamomile** » Sun Jan 08, 2012 5:27 am

I don't want to break out the diplomacy rules every time someone makes a trivial request, though. The only rules should be "if it's trivial and the NPC likes you anyway, then they do it."

PhoneLobster · Post by **PhoneLobster** » Sun Jan 08, 2012 5:46 am

RadiantPhoenix wrote:The diplomacy minigame is HOW YOU FUCKING FIGURE OUT if the barbarian king grants your puny 1st level PC's request.

That's awfully nice but largely irrelevant.

Because you have two scenarios.

1) Sane Level Based System
1st level character vs barbarian king so the 1st level character loses horribly in 999999 out of 1000000 cases. They do not MAKE the barbarian king do anything he OPTS to do what he wants, whatever the hell that is.

2) Insane non level based system
For some reason (fuck knows what) you decide your diplomacy minigame is decoupled from your level system. Someone wins, someone makes someone do something. Might be anyone, might be anything.

Thing is Lago is telling us we MUST go for 2 because... underpants gnomes, and it is totally undoable because... underpants gnomes, so Diplomacy mini-games are undoable THE END.

Of course I could also interpret your comment ANOTHER way, and that is that the Barbarian King cannot choose to grant the 1st level commoners request if he wins the mini game.

And I DIDN'T interpret it that way because I want to pretend you aren't that stupid. That is NOT how social mini-games work. That CANNOT be how social mini-games work. If you think players have an issue about personal agency when they LOSE a combat like encounter IMAGINE how shitted they are going to be when even WINNING a combat encounter REQUIRES them to take SPECIFIC and involuntary actions.

Lets not even get into the thing where all 1st level characters in mismatched encounters then ask for the reverse of what they want and aim to lose...

But again, as repeatedly proposed by people in favour of social mechanics. Like say, me. There is the thing Chamomile mentioned. It is absolutely necessary that the social mini game or whatever it is ISN'T used for EVERY social interaction ever. That is unreasonable. That is unwieldy, and that results in bull shit like the "your actions are decided for you on defeat OR victory" and "1st level wives of the barbarian god king always play social misere" scenarios.

It is absolutely reasonable and a good thing to have a situation where the social encounter rules are bypassed, or where victory enables you to do whatever you want including voluntarily deciding to agree to a request. Not permitting such a response to victory after all means that no matter HOW good your character is you NEVER have ACTUAL genuine control of their actions even on victory, and that is not acceptable.

ModelCitizen · Post by **ModelCitizen** » Sun Jan 08, 2012 7:12 am

Aladdin isn't a high level story anyway.

The genie is a (noble) djinn. In 3e he's a 10 HD monster, CR 8 if you care about that.

Aladdin has a flying mount. He moves at full speed over difficult terrain. He has an animal companion that can duplicate low-level rogue abilities. He has freaking Slow Fall and the story still cares about that retarded ability.

Jasmine's highest level ability is a tiger companion.

Pre-wish-cheese Jafar's highest level ability is Scrying. His only other abilities are some mind effects topping out at Suggestion, and a respectable Disguise check.

Jafar as the "most powerful sorcerer in the world" opens by forcibly teleporting Aladdin (no good analogue in D&D, but weaker than Plane Shift). When Aladdin comes back he throws off a Scorching Ray, Forcecage, Baleful Polymorph (really PAO, but he uses it like Baleful Polymorph), Blade Barrier, and Wall of Fire. He's running low on good spells so he Polymorphs into a Gargantuan viper, which would be a 12 HD monster if you continue the progression from the vipers in the MM. He fights like a 13th level wizard. Not "at least 13," but exactly 13.

Aladdin is about a bunch of 7th level characters with a 13th level final boss and a 10 HD bullshit plot monster. It lines up amazingly well with early-mid-level D&D.

Chamomile · Post by **Chamomile** » Sun Jan 08, 2012 7:18 am

ModelCitizen wrote:He fights like a 13th level wizard.

With some kind of weird class feature that requires he make puns based on each and every one of his spells. More seriously, I like that analysis. It's true that Jafar isn't really high-level, but high-level plots just don't really happen...Like, ever. Like, really, the only high-level character I can even think of who is not in an actual officially D&D-based story is maybe Sauron.

hogarth · Post by **hogarth** » Sun Jan 08, 2012 7:29 am

Chamomile wrote:I don't want to break out the diplomacy rules every time someone makes a trivial request, though. The only rules should be "if it's trivial and the NPC likes you anyway, then they do it."

Yes, it pretty much goes without saying that the DC for convincing someone to do something they would want to do anyway should be pretty low.

Username17 · Post by **Username17** » Sun Jan 08, 2012 8:06 am

Lago PARANOIA wrote:Yes, it all boils down to dualist mind/body assumption crap. I mean, you still wouldn't want to implement NPC-on-PC diplomacy in the game because of the other assumptions, but that by itself is a non-starter. It completely derailed Shadowrun-style brain hacking even though that game is straight-up a genre where people accept the idea of computer programs killing them in their minds or drive-by possessions.

I disagree. Aside from the incredibly stupid tripe that sneaks in when people start letting power levels blind them to what a diplomacy minigame is supposed to do (PL, I would be looking at you, but I put your shit on ignore when you start going on stupid parades like this), that is not what causes people to become offended.

People become offended when they fail because the MC declared it so. No one has a problem with dominate or other mind control (at least, not more than other Save or Die attacks) because the rules are clear. You fail a saving throw, you're dominated. People become offended when they are required to do something socially, because that is magical fucking teaparty. That is exactly the same as declaring an attack and having the MC tell you that you miss without rolling the dice.

In games like Arkham Horror, no one gets upset when they have to make a Will check to avoid getting conned out of money. But the real kicker is Champions. There are things in that game called Presence Attacks. That's where you show up and do something scary or impressive. The thing is: the rules on Presence Attacks are clear and fairly unambiguous. And when the numbers come up that tell you that you cower in fear, people cower in fear, and that does not seem to bother them. It's completely non magical in most cases. It affects the character's mind. It keeps them from acting the way they want to. And people are OK with it because it's "fair" and they can look at the rules themselves and confirm that it has the effect being described and see the dice and compare the numbers.

Yeah, people herp derp around describing their ideal social minigame, and people genuinely do not know what they actually want. But the reality is that they want a social minigame with concrete effects that has defined inputs and variables that depend on fair and open die rolls - or they want a complete fuzzy headed MTP system that cannot make any player do anything they don't want to do.

-Username17

PhoneLobster · Post by **PhoneLobster** » Sun Jan 08, 2012 8:23 am

FrankTrollman wrote:(PL, I would be looking at you, but I put your shit on ignore when you start going on stupid parades like this)

So what's that the 37th time Frank has pulled the good old "Lalalalalala I Can't Hear You!" in place of actually addressing an argument?

This place is so cool these days now all that Frank and Lago do is endlessly wring hands about endless WoF like dilemmas in design no one else ever cared about and never ever directly address anything openly critical of their ideas.

Chamomile · Post by **Chamomile** » Sun Jan 08, 2012 8:28 am

PL, stop obsessing over Frank. If he wants to throw a tantrum every time someone challenges one of his pet ideas, that's his problem. If you don't think he has a valid argument against you, then awesome, the discussion is over and you there's no need to get your panties in a twist just because Frank isn't willing to have it with you. There are lots of other people having this conversation and plenty of them have demonstrated a willingness to have it with you.

PhoneLobster · Post by **PhoneLobster** » Sun Jan 08, 2012 8:45 am

Chamomile wrote:If he wants to throw a tantrum every time someone challenges one of his pet ideas, that's his problem.

I'm... not allowed to point that out with a two sentence post now?

Really?

Are you sure you don't want to I dunno, take back your rather odd over eager "How Dare You!" post there?

Chamomile · Post by **Chamomile** » Sun Jan 08, 2012 10:01 am

This is not the first time you've brought this up, and I'm getting sick of it.

Ice9 · Post by **Ice9** » Sun Jan 08, 2012 10:57 am

So a fair number of people like to talk big about wanting a "hard core" social system. It's got to be a social fight to the death defeat, with binding consequences. And no "cheap counters" either - you definitely can't stop or refuse a social combat just because your opponent's argument is unreasonable.

But you know what? I like for the PCs to be able to talk to people, and in a system where social-fu works like this - they fucking can't. In a world where any random bystander could have the skills to trade a turnip for a kingdom, nobody gets to talk to the king, any more than they'd be allowed to walk up to him while waving a sword around. You submit your message in writing and a "letter taster" will read it and paraphrase it to the king, or maybe a chain of several "translations" if one isn't enough.

In the meantime, if you try to strike up a conversation with a merchant, he'll cover his ears and run out the door, screaming for the guards. Not that you'd really want to buy things in person either - that's fucking dangerous. The safer move is to send out a minion with only enough money for what you wanted.

Does this sound like a great setting? Not really to me, either.

Also, I have to say - what part of this is wrong?

PhoneLobster wrote:If you are prepared to say fuck no David as a 1st level slinger does NOT get to defeat a 30 million hit die giant then you can say the same thing about him seducing it in a bar.

Sure, that's inconsistent with some of the source material - much like the rest of D&D. In a lot of the source material, getting shanked in your sleep = dead. Getting surrounded by guards with crossbows = surrender. Fall off a cliff = dead or very injured. The whole way "being high level" works in D&D is its own thing.

PhoneLobster · Post by **PhoneLobster** » Sun Jan 08, 2012 12:27 pm

Ice9 wrote:But you know what? I like for the PCs to be able to talk to people, and in a system where social-fu works like this - they fucking can't.

Well actually those exact scenarios you have mentioned have been covered in DETAIL many times, even on this thread I think. But don't let that stop you from continuing to believe otherwise, and anyway, whatever, I would prefer to continue to talk about what the thread currently is about, which is the "wuts a level system thing", or even Franks "well actually there are quite a few popular and successful social mechanics around", I mean ESPECIALLY if I would have to rehash the SAME "for fucks sake, no it doesn't mean that at all" thing for the ninth time to the SAME three people who didn't get it the first time.

Kaelik · Post by **Kaelik** » Sun Jan 08, 2012 3:28 pm

Chamomile wrote:This is not the first time you've brought this up, and I'm getting sick of it.

If someone Gish gallops, it is totally acceptable to point out that they are wrong a bunch of times.

I don't personally agree with PR on diplomacy right now, but if he just lets Frank make posts that say he's wrong without any evidence, and doesn't counter with his own posts saying Frank has him on ignore because he doesn't have a good argument, then some non zero amount of people are going to be influenced in favor of Frank.

The part where you don't get mad at Frank for including a couple sentences attacking PR, but you do get mad at PR for countering is really dumb.

Chamomile · Post by **Chamomile** » Sun Jan 08, 2012 3:47 pm

Frank's got me ignored. Anything I say to him won't actually get through. And I'm pretty sure I've made my opinion on his temper tantrums pretty clear already, regardless.

hogarth · Post by **hogarth** » Sun Jan 08, 2012 4:43 pm

FrankTrollman wrote: But the real kicker is Champions. There are things in that game called Presence Attacks. That's where you show up and do something scary or impressive. The thing is: the rules on Presence Attacks are clear and fairly unambiguous. And when the numbers come up that tell you that you cower in fear, people cower in fear, and that does not seem to bother them. It's completely non magical in most cases. It affects the character's mind. It keeps them from acting the way they want to. And people are OK with it because it's "fair" and they can look at the rules themselves and confirm that it has the effect being described and see the dice and compare the numbers.

This is an incredibly dumb example, because the situation in Champions is EXACTLY THE SAME as in 3.5E D&D.

****

In D&D: There's a skill called Intimidate that has two effects. One is a short term fear penalty that players wouldn't complain about when used on the PCs. One is a longer term pseudo-mind-control effect that players would complain about if the GM used it on the PCs.

In Champions: There's something called a Presence Attack that has two effects. One is a short term fear penalty that players wouldn't complain about when used on the PCs. One is a longer term pseudo-mind-control effect that players would complain about if the GM used it on the PCs. ("Mechanon says he'll nuke Albuquerque unless you rape your mother's eye socket. Let's see...he rolled a 63. Sorry, Mom!")

****

In D&D: There are mind control spells that can be used on the PCs. Players don't mind them too much because they're usually short term, it's difficult to force a PC to do something that's really against his will, and there are fairly cheap countermeasures (Protection from Evil).

In Champions: There are mind control powers that can be used on the PCs. Players don't mind them too much because they're usually short term, it's difficult to force a PC to do something that's really against his will, and there are fairly cheap countermeasures (Ego Defense).

****

In D&D: There's a skill called Diplomacy that results in a longer term pseudo-mind-control effect. Players would hate to have this used on their PCs because it's cheap to get a ridiculously high bonus, there's no real countermeasure and the rules actually encourage the GM to make whatever modifiers he likes.

In Champions: There's a skill called Persuasion that results in a longer term pseudo-mind-control effect. Players would hate to have this used on their PCs because it's cheap to get a ridiculously high bonus, there's no real countermeasure and the rules actually encourage the GM to make whatever modifiers he likes.

Swordslinger · Post by **Swordslinger** » Sun Jan 08, 2012 6:44 pm

Ice9 wrote: But you know what? I like for the PCs to be able to talk to people, and in a system where social-fu works like this - they fucking can't. In a world where any random bystander could have the skills to trade a turnip for a kingdom, nobody gets to talk to the king, any more than they'd be allowed to walk up to him while waving a sword around. You submit your message in writing and a "letter taster" will read it and paraphrase it to the king, or maybe a chain of several "translations" if one isn't enough.

Yeah pretty much, if you make diplomacy too powerful and unrealistic then nobody wants to ever risk playing the diplomacy game, especially anyone important.

People would greet conversation similar to offensive spellcasting and nobody would ever interact.

Koumei · Post by **Koumei** » Sun Jan 08, 2012 7:27 pm

Cham, the argument between PL and Frank on this issue goes back so far that nobody else even cares who is right any more. Frank could literally be arguing that people should not be allowed to talk in games, and PL could literally be arguing that you need to roll on a random table for each individual word you say, then look at the resulting sentence and tally how much sense it makes.

It really wouldn't matter - neither accepts anything the other has to say, and the rest of us more or less accept that this is how it is. We really don't care about the argument.

And to both of the above: yes, that was hyperbole. I'm not implying that's anything like your actual points. See the bit about not caring.

RadiantPhoenix · Post by **RadiantPhoenix** » Sun Jan 08, 2012 8:37 pm

PhoneLobster wrote:
RadiantPhoenix wrote:The diplomacy minigame is HOW YOU FUCKING FIGURE OUT if the barbarian king grants your puny 1st level PC's request.
That's awfully nice but largely irrelevant.

Because you have two scenarios.

1) Sane Level Based System
1st level character vs barbarian king so the 1st level character loses horribly in 999999 out of 1000000 cases. They do not MAKE the barbarian king do anything he OPTS to do what he wants, whatever the hell that is.

How do you determine if he opts to do it? Magic Tea Party?