Lords of Madness: Not bad.

[User3]

First off, I have to say two things:

1. No Illithid Savant rewrite.

2. No Beholder Mage rewrite.

Ok, that being said, here is the skinny:

1. A lot of neat flavor text, with some rules and extra feats, items, spells, etc. My only complaint is that I would have liked more of this stuff, but overall I'm happy with the book.

2. Unlike Races of Eberron (a craptastic book I refuse to review), a lot of the race-specific feats and spells can be used by other races that find workarounds to get the prereqs. using classes/feats or who have similiar powers. Very few powers say "beholder-only" or some crap like that.

3. A few "must have" feats. There is a feat that lets you store spells in your eyes, then shoot them as rays(normal saves apply) as a standard action. Its a bizarre way to get more spells off in a round, but hands-down worth it. I can see some awesome "creature with a lot of eyes as flavor text"/Polymorph cheese happening here.

4. Most of the feats will make ou look or act very silly. There is a "I'm a good slave" feat where you can make creatures with more HD than you give you bonuses. Seems like a lot of guys now have reasons to keep high HD undead around. The "abberation blood" feats cause you to grow new stuff. Some of the powers are worth it (like a feat that gives you darkvision), but others will just freak out the local barmaid.

Downsides:
1. Light on the character options. The showcased races only have one PrC (and the Illithid have none), and about a dozen feats per. I would have gladly skipped over the secret origins of the chuul for more of this action.

2. A Wildshape feat to let you turn into an Abberation. You know you saw it coming.

3. Vampiric Illithid. You know you saw that coming too.

4. The extra abberation race is another "we love magic and power" race. Come on guys! Are you using a relic d12 to come up with these new races?

5. Detailed descriptions of the different lobes of an aboleth's brain. Ummm, why would you do that?


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Overall, it didn't shoot too high but it seems to have hit the mark, so I'm giving this a 3 out of 4 electrum pieces.

[Count Arioch the 28th]

"Not Bad" from K is a rave review from anyone else, I think I'll at least check the book out at the store.

[MrWaeseL]

First off, I have to say two things:

1. No Illithid Savant rewrite.

2. No Beholder Mage rewrite.

How does that make you feel?

[Username17]

Considering that it means that the Ilithid Savant and Beholder Mage are therefore still legal in official 3.5 games, it makes me feel contemptuous.

It's another example of them simply not responding to actual problems in the hopes that if they are quiet about them less people will notice them, rather than engaging with the problems and actually trying to fix them.

Heck, the Beholder Mage problem could be fixed with a hit die minimum.

-Username17

[Lago_AM3P]

It's another example of them simply not responding to actual problems in the hopes that if they are quiet about them less people will notice them, rather than engaging with the problems and actually trying to fix them.

For real.

They need to grow a pair and state 'this PrC or feat or spell is not available in 3.5E'. Instead of being little mewling bitches.

Take Extraordinary Spell Aim. That feat is frickin' nuts. There is no way they will be able to whore that spell up (something they even managed with persistent spell and divine metamagic, the sacless freaks), like leadership or Initiate of Mystra. But they're just pretending after their MASSIVE FREAKING BRAIN FART that the feat just suddenly doesn't exist!

Cowardly ass-grabbers. Oh, well, at least cleric archers with the protection and sun domain will get the respect they deserve. Seriously, with just that one feat and prismatic sphere 3.5E cleric archers are leaps and bounds above their 3.0E counterparts.

3.5E is a huge failure and this is why. Partly because the people designing the rules are jackasses and can't see past their nearest paycheck. But probably a bigger part is because people lack the balls to just state 'sorry, this is FUCKED UP beyond any use, don't use it in your game'.

Ri-goddamn-diculous.

[RandomCasualty]

1113276962[/unixtime]]
They need to grow a pair and state 'this PrC or feat or spell is not available in 3.5E'. Instead of being little mewling bitches.

Guys, this isn't Magic the gathering. They seriously don't need to come up with a list of banned spells and PrCs, especially not crap published under 3.0. No non-core material is allowed unless the DM allows it.

Aside from RPGA games, there's no such thing as an "official game", and nobody could honestly give a fuck about one. If it's the RPGA they just let them make their own rules, where they can ban what they want and set up their own special mechanics. Other than that I just don't see what's worth obsessing about.

It's a waste of space to print "The other class was broken, don't use it." That's a decision the DM is going to have to make anyway. If anything, it's modern DMs, not WotC, that needs to grow a pair. If you are a DM and you knowingly allow something broken simply because it's legal, then you are spineless, there's nothing else to say really. You really just need to grow yourself a pair and do what's best for the game.

If there's anything the design team needs to do, it isn't to worry about past stuff, but rather to work toward avoiding the mistakes of the past. Not reprinting a PrC is actually a good start towards that. I'm actually more upset about some of the crap they did reprint as opposed to the stuff that they didn't.

Whenever they get into the mindset to "fix" something, it always comes out horribly wrong. The incanatrix is still horribly overpowered. The frenzied berserker still blows away other fighter PrCs. The duelist got "fixed" and still kept the most broken ability while otherwise getting nerfed into weakness. Lets also remember the Ur-Priest as well, which is still every bit as powerful as it was before.

If there's anything they proved, it's that they don't have a clue how to fix the mistakes they made. If they did reprint the beholder mage or the illithid savant, I can pretty much assure you that they'd both still be insanely powerful.

Now, as far as fixing stuff, they should focus on core mistakes first. Namely the friggin druid, spells like astral projection and simulacrum and of course the polymorph chain. With glaring mistakes like that in core, I really don't care what they do as far as non-core stuff.

[Lago_AM3P]

It's a waste of space to print "The other class was broken, don't use it." That's a decision the DM is going to have to make anyway. If anything, it's modern DMs, not WotC, that needs to grow a pair. If you are a DM and you knowingly allow something broken simply because it's legal, then you are spineless, there's nothing else to say really. You really just need to grow yourself a pair and do what's best for the game.

You apparently have way too much faith in DMs.

Most have no clue what they're doing outside of the rules. I don't know what kind of campaigns you live in, but for me the DM having a flash of insight and realizing 'hey, this is wack' is the LAST line of defense, not the first.

I have been in so many campaigns with many DMs (since I roleplay with other sailors) that banned Shintao Monks yet congratulated me on my expert cleric archer build that I will never embrace a DM-balance centric viewpoint.

Besides, it's their goddamn job to fix their own shit. I'd at least like to see an attempt, even if it's a retarded and muddled attempt like they did the Sacred Fist.

[RandomCasualty]

1113353513[/unixtime]]
You apparently have way too much faith in DMs.

Possibly, but I already know what the D&D designers can do. I've already seen what happens when they decide to revise stuff like the incantatrix and the duelist. They're certainly not the answer. So I'll put my faith in the DM. At least with any individual DM, it's an unknown. It's possible he will fix some of the problems.

We certainly know Skip and the rest of the D&D design team aren't fixing anything. The day they pull thier heads out of their asses and realize the druid is crazy broken will occur long after hell has frozen over.

While you could say I have too much faith in DMs, I would say that I simply have no faith in the designers.

[Wrenfield]

Back on topic to Lords of Madness ...

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1. Are the new creatures balanced with their CR? I heard the new Mind Flayers are very challenging. Since Illithids still have Astral Projection (a broken spell and a viciously efficient way to disengage from combat), I would assume the amped-up new creatures are even tougher to kill.

2. Any new mechanical issues with the Far Realms? Or is the timeless nature of this plane still ripe for cheese abuse (using Plane Shift and what-not)?

[User3]

1113426175[/unixtime]]Back on topic to Lords of Madness ...

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1. Are the new creatures balanced with their CR? I heard the new Mind Flayers are very challenging. Since Illithids still have Astral Projection (a broken spell and a viciously efficient way to disengage from combat), I would assume the amped-up new creatures are even tougher to kill.

IIRC, as of 3.5 they lost AP. Which created a big causality issue with silver swords, but I won't get into that.

Anyway, what do you mean by "new illithids"? New feats+classes or entirely new creatures? And if so any (please don't call me a cheese-eating munchkin) ECLs?

[User3]

Turns out I lied.

There is a Beholder Mage rewrite. It is very good. I missed it in the first pass.

It's not good because of the 10 spell levels in 10 levels, or the high spells per level, or the automatic Eschew Material Components-like ability, or the fact that it has as sole prereqs of "true beholder/stabsbed out AMF eye."

Its good because it fvcking LEARNS SPELLS AS A WIZARD and it CAST SPELLS AS A SORCERER!!!!!!!!!

No jokes here.

Its power is mitgated by the fact that is looses an eyeray with every spell level gained and the "Spells: "section neatly forces you to actually be a (true) beholder, in beholder-form, to use its abilities. Plus, your GP spells have to be paid with XP, which blows. I also didn't see anything about caster levels, so they might blow (maybe).

However, none of that stops you from being THE MOST POWERFUL AND INTERESTING SPELLCASTER IN THE GAME.

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Ps. The monsters all seem pretty reasonable, aside from an immortal Swarm that can PAO(living creatures only).

The classes also look good, except for a class that requires a ranger level and gives Wildshape(medium animal only) in the first level. Combined with the feat that lets you expand your
Wild shape into an Abberration, we all know where this goes. There is a grafting/"turn into an abberration" mage guy that follows the "pay the first level of your spellcasting for your benefits" that is just kind of funny.

Aboleth are also confirmed as "we got your memories biatches!!" dudes. Same with Illithid, but not as cool.

The Ocular Magic-thing feat is even better and worse than my first look. No, you don't get to store a spell per eye; you only get two spells max. Yes, you can do it as many times per day as you like and it turns the effect into a ray. So yes, you can start every combat with a double Scorching Ray or Disintigrate. I'm no sure if it means "Effect" as in spell stat line or "effect" as in any magic spell's effect. Its pretty good either way.

[User3]

Any more comments or critiques on Lords of Madness? I'll be headed to the game store tomorrow night to check it out as well.

So far, it sounds good!

[User3]

Ps. Beholder Mages also cast spells out of eyestalks as free actions, meaning that they can cast 10 spells a round. They are still limited to 3 eyestalks in one 90 degree angle, so you personally can get nailed by only three direct spells. Buffs, summons, and "large area spells that can affect enemies even thought they center somewhere on your left, right, or rear angle" can be cast quickly enough to rock your socks off.

We don't even have to talk about the spells you can cheese out if you don't care about casting times.

Like I said, "they are the most powerful and interesting spellcasters in the game. Ever."

[User3]

the wildshape feat that lets you wildshape into an Aberration looks extremely sweet! Besides, druids needed a strong power-up.

Regardless, I think there is some potential cheese in this feat by taking accompanying feats that let you turn those (Sp) eyestalks of a Beholder into (Su) abilities.

[Username17]

I took a look at the new Beholder Mage. Yeah, they are the most powerful spellcasters ever. By a lot.

But with only a brief chance to look it over, I was unclear as to what happens when you take the class and subsequently aren't a True Beholder anymore. Certainly you can regenerate that central eye no problem and get your antimagic back. And it is likewise certain that after level one in the class, you want to get into a +1 Spellcasting class as soon as possible, because other than the best spellcasting progression ever, this class is sitting on 8 empty levels.

But you seem to be able to just plain go back to being a human again. And what happens next isn't exactly clear. It's possible that you have to go around casting your spells normally. Which is a step backwards from your crazy-town ass-whupping as a Beholder Mage, but you still seem to learn spells as a wizard and cast them as a Sorcerer and only have a 10 level progression that picks up the whole Sorcerer spells/day rubric.

Becoming a Beholder Mage as a 2nd level character is still a must-have for any serious powergamer. Not as much as it was, but still an absolute must-have.

-Username17

[User3]

Well, their "Spells" class ability specifically says that they cast spells out of beholder eyestalks, as a free action and one spell per "spellstalk."

It then goes on to say that verbal components are a "spell song" and somatic components are wiggling of the eystalks(dedicated eyestalks called spellstalks").

So I'm pretty sure that they need beholder eyestalks to cast spells at all (specifically eyestalks that have been converted to spellcasting eyestalks), and its not something you can get around with Still Spell since the eyestalks are not a Somatic component, but an essential part of the spellcasting of the class (like clerics not being able cast opposing alignment spells, or Bards needing to sing/talk).

I think that its possible to graft beholder eyestalks onto someone using a Graft feat(maybe in Fiend Folio), so there is potential abuse.

[Username17]

As I said, I am simply unsure. A once-through while people were talking to me was unable to parse whether having spellstalks allowed you to break the spellcasting rules in all those horrible ways, or whether they were required to cast spells at all. Since the text was obviously written by someone who had no god damned idea what the legalese ramifications of their writing would be, it could honestly go either way. You'd pretty much need to comb it out sentence by sentence while looking at the original PHB wording on the rules for casting spells in the first place.

Ugh. At least it's not White Wolf, where they don't even pretend to write rules that make any sense. Otherwise the new Followers of Set wouldn't be a Mekhet Bloodline who get Obtenebration as their bloodline discipline. And even if they were, the first level sure as hell wouldn't be the ability to spend vitae to see in the dark when their main clan discipline already lets them to see in complete darkness whenever they want for free.

---

Still, you are correct. Eyestalk granting grafts exist in the Fiend Folio on pages 208-209. You can start by having an argument about whether a Crown of Eyes counts to the extent that it will allow you to make spellstalks. Then you can end the argument by taking the "Eyestalk" graft instead.

-Username17

[User3]

I'll be the first to admit the BM spell rules were written by someone who either needs to stop smoking crack, or perhaps start. I read them quite intensly and I wouldn't bet money on what they mean.

But how could they have missed that potentially casting 10 spells a round is a bad idea?

[Username17]

Hell, I couldn't even tell if you are allowed to use your special beholder casting on spells you gain from other classes. It would seem so, as you have to give up one of your eyes every time you gain the ability to cast a new level of spells, not necessarily a new level of Beholder Mage spells.

But how could they have missed that potentially casting 10 spells a round is a bad idea?

There's nothing stopping you from layering an extra eyestalk onto your head and then slapping Epic Spellcasting on yourself - allowing you to cast an extra spell per round every time you gain an Epic Feat - something you are supposed to be able to do even before you complete the class.

-Username17

[SuicideChump]

Ugh...I'm just back from my vacation and I still don't have my Lord of Madness copy...damn postal service!!!!

A question for those who have already read the book: how good are (and how work) Tsochari abilities? Are they abusable via Shapechange?

THX!

[MrWaeseL]

Also, does the abberation WS feat lets yo use the form's (su) abilities? Otherwise you're probably better of with straight WS, since then you can use all the animal buffs on yourself.

[SuicideChump]

1115487653[/unixtime]]Also, does the abberation WS feat lets yo use the form's (su) abilities? Otherwise you're probably better of with straight WS, since then you can use all the animal buffs on yourself.

I was missing this pearl: now Druids can WS into Aberrations? If they can use also their Su abilities, what's the point with "ECL", "LA" and similar bullshit?
Take a Druid, WS into a Mind Flayer and just ignore the ECL forever. Please tell me it is not this way. PLEASE...O_O

Anyone knows about Tsochari?

[Wrenfield]

The Tsochari make pretty nifty cohorts for your Leadership feat at 6th level. From what I recall, they are 4HD/4CR/+? ECL creatures. But because of their ability to take over bodies of arcane spellcasters (and use their spells until they are exhausted) ... and even hide in your own body, their versatility and stealth capabilities will be immensely useful in just about any campaign situation you can think of. They have a lot of other neat abilities as well - including telepathy.

[SuicideChump]

Today I got the book.

congrats to W. England for his illustration at pag. 145: now the Elder Brain seems a huge tentacled arse.

I don't want to think about the REAL nature of an Elder Brain's 'Mind' Blast...

[MrWaeseL]

Hmmm... it does

Maybe you like the Underdark version better?