Balancing new classes: against monsters or previous classes?

[Bigode]

If someone would be so kind as to try to prove me wrong ...

I guess it [this class]would do fairly fine against most equal CR'd monsters (remember that some, like dragons and angels, have been intentionally overpowered). But, to be honest, I must say that I find Frank's approach of comparing only to monsters (not actually doing so, but deeming that better than comparing only to classes) a bit insulting; no PC-classed enemies, after all? Besides, and more importantly, there are numerous examples of monster imbalance - as such, whether you pick classes or monsters, you're either way actually picking just a subset and deeming it "balanced" (which, in the end, actually means "OK to my sensibilities"), and then fitting everything else around it.

[CatharzGodfoot]

PC classed enemies are 'monsters' with CR equal to their level.

[Username17]

Challenges are extremely variable of course, but that's why you do a set of them. Just a priori I can tell you that a character who can levitate and poltergeist up some modest DOT effects is going to slam dunk any giant scorpions he ever meets and is going to have a problem with wraiths. I don't need to see the numbers, just tactically that is going to happen.

As for PC challenges specifically, as you may recall the original same game challenge had "an evil necromancer" on it. So I actually do use PC opponents. The problem is that PC opponents are actually really a "moving goal posts" problem. That is, whatever it is that you decide is the power level you want for PCs, that will ideally be the power level your PCs are at - meaning that if you force everyone to play commoner equivalents using weapons of bone and wood out to 13th level and beyond your PC classed opponents will presumably be doing the same. If on the other hand you decide to flush common sense out the door and just have high level conjurers whip their demon armies into battle, then that is what PCs have to overcome if they face a PC classed challenge.

Sure there's stuff in there that pretty much lacks options. A barbarian is just a special case of Frost Giant who isn't any good. But he's also just one of the brute monsters. The fact that he is substantially less impressive than the other brutes at his level shows that he is the outlying data point, not the other way around.

But regardless, if you run wizards through the same game challenge, then at some point they are going to fight a wizard. And this is not especially interesting as a data point, save to remind us that it happens.

-Username17

[RandomCasualty]

Power Variability: If you think monsters are imbalanced, classes are even worse, and the higher level you go, the worse it gets. Where do you even start? You could compare your class to a monk and say "well it's better than a monk" and compare it to a druid and say "It's weaker than a druid" and by that yardstick you could claim it's balanced. Of course that assumes the core itself is balanced, which it's not.

Simple versus complex: Generally you have a good idea what a monster is going to actually do in any combat. With PC classes, this isn't very obvious. You honestly have no fucking clue what a wizard might do, or a sorcerer might do. It depends on so many factors as to make any comparison almost pointless.

Monster's don't change: I like comparing things to monsters. Because monsters are static. At some point, there are going to be new books released, with new feats and new spells and all kinds of extra BS. And now your classed NPCs may have some of that.

It's what you fight: Most of the time, you're fighting monsters, at least in my experience. It just takes so long to make classed NPCs that most DMs are going to take the easier route and pit you against monsters. D&D is a game where your effectiveness is more about killing monsters than being able to beat each other up. So having a class that dominates PvP combat just isn't that big a deal.

[Username17]

Oh, and the class in question is boring and stupid.

It's just a Druid caster with some crap Rebuking thrown on top which almost certainly doesn't do what the author thinks it does.

So at first level he has entangle (awesome) but his ranged weapon is a sling (bullshit). His spellcasting is frankly lame.

At third level all he's good for is entangle and summoning hippogriffs. And while that's plenty to dominate combat against most enemies, it is boring and stupid. That class is lame.

-Username17

[JonSetanta]

1199989668[/unixtime]]
At third level all he's good for is entangle and summoning hippogriffs. And while that's plenty to dominate combat against most enemies, it is boring and stupid. That class is lame.

-Username17

Apart from the Summoner, a brief class hellbent on doing nothing but summoning Hippogriffs (buffed, feat-amped, celestial/fiendish, 1/2 dragon, etc) would be quite funny.

[Koumei]

Sure, why not?

The Hippogriff Master
"So I thought I was going to a dungeoncrawl. Turns out it was a furry convention."

Class Skills: That's funny, you think I care.
Skill Points per Level: 6+Int
Hit Die: d8
Saves: Good Will (to all mankind)
BAB: Poor

Alignment: It seriously doesn't matter. Anyone is able to appreciate summoning minions to tear people apart with eagle-horsies.

Code: Select all

[br]Level: Ability:[br]1      Summon Hippogriff (1), Entangle, Improved Aid[br]2      Planar Hippogriff, Scaled Hippogriff[br]3      Summon Hippogriff (2), Stronger and Tougher[br]4      Hippogriffs of the Dragon, Tactical Aid[br]5      Summon Hippogriff (3), Faster[br]6      Hippogriff Cohort, Greater Planar Hippogriff[br]7      Summon Hippogriff (4), Elemental Might[br]8      Multi-headed Hippogriff, Spectral Striking[br]9      Summon Hippogriff (5), Unexplained Defences[br]10     Greenbound Hippogriff, Zerg Rush[br]

Proficiencies: Light Armour, Medium Armour and Simple Weapons. Whatever.

Summon Hippogriff: As a standard action, the Master may conjure up one Hippogriff that hangs around and does as it is told for 1 minute per character level. It gains an extra hit die for every level beyond first. As you increase in level, you may have more at a time, though you still need to expend actions to summon them individually. If you summon another over the limit, you must elect one to vanish as part of the action.

This is a Supernatural Ability.

Entangle: You may cast Entangle as a Supernatural ability at will.

Improved Aid: You may make an Aid Other check to assist your Hippogriff as long as it is within 30 feet of you. Doing so grants it a +3 morale bonus to all attack and damage rolls until your next turn.

Planar Hippogriff: You may apply the Celestial, Fiendish or Pseudonatural template to any Hippogriff you summon. It may have only one such template, before you get any funny ideas.

Scaled Hippogriff: Instead of applying the Planar Hippogriff ability to a Hippogriff you summon, you may instead apply the Draconic template.

Stronger and Tougher: Hippogriffs you summon see their Strength, Constitution and Natural Armour all increased by +4

Hippogriffs of the Dragon: Instead of applying the benefits of Scaled or Planar Hippogriff, you may add the Half-Dragon template to any Hippogriff you summon. You lose this benefit the moment you go into any detail about how it acquired the template.

Tactical Aid: As a Standard action, you may grant one of the following benefits to all Hippogriffs you have summoned, for one full round:
-Tricky movement: they count as being in all squares they move through for the purposes of flanking foes, even allowing them to flank with themselves. They also do not provoke AoOs for movement of any kind.
-Strike the weak point for massive damage: they all gain 2d6 Sneak Attack dice.
-Blitzkrieg: when they charge, they may add 2d6 damage to all attacks they make, and may make a free Overrun attempt.
-EIght Trigrams Defence: they may each, as an Immediate action, make an additional 5' step of movement.

Faster: They all receive a +10 foot speed enhancement to all movement types, and a +4 increase in Dexterity.

Hippogriff Cohort: You now get your very own Hippogriff as a cohort. It always has a CR of your level -2, and if it dies, another comes along in 24 hours.

Greater Planar Hippogriff: Instead of any of the previous templates, summoned Hippogriffs may now be Half-Celestial, Half-Fiend or Half-Farspawn. Yay.

Elemental Might: You may elect to apply an Elemental Subtype to any Hippogriff you summon, also adding the following benefits:
-Fire: All attacks deal +2d6 Fire damage, attacking it in melee or grappling it deals Fire damage equal to its HD to the attacker.
-Cold: All attacks deal +2d6 Cold damage, attacking it in melee or grappling it deals Cold damage equal to its HD to the attacker.
-Air: Double the Flight speed, and it also gains Air Mastery and can, as a Standard action, shoot out rays of lightning that deal 3d6 electricity damage (ranged touched attack, 50' range, 20 x2 critical, Supernatural).
-Earth: Gain a burrow speed equal to land speed, gain Earth Mastery and the Push ability, as well as 30' Tremorsense when touching the ground.
-Water: Gain 50' Tremorsense when underwater. Gain a Swim speed equal to flight speed, can breathe underwater, and also gain Water Mastery and Drench.

Multi-headed Hippogriff: You can apply the Multi-headed template to hippogriffs you summon. If you apply no other template, it gains 4 extra heads. If it is Scaled or Planar, it gains 3. If it is a Half Dragon, it gains 2, and if Greater Planar, it gains 1 extra head.

Spectral Striking: Your Hippogriffs, including your cohort, can interact with (see: attack) incorporeal and ethereal targets as though they lacked those qualities.

Unexplained Defences: For no apparent reason, your summoned Hippogriffs benefit from Blur, Mage Armour and Lesser Vigour for as long as they are summoned. Better still, as a Move equivalent action, you can grant a special, magical aura to all of your Hippogriffs, summoned or otherwise, that lasts for one full round. They automatically take half damage from any damaging effect while this aura is available, and anyone who deals damage to them takes nonlethal damage equal to their hit dice. Again, no explanation is given.

This is a Supernatural ability, even if some are bound to declare it pretty extraordinary.

Greenbound Hippogriff: Instead of applying any of the other templates, you may apply the Greenbound template to any Hippogriffs you summon. Yeah, that's where it's at!

Zerg Rush: Once per hour, you may summon your full five Hippogriffs all at once.

---

There. Done. Not playtested at all, but you have a number of (increasingly powerful) flying creatures at all times, you can waste actions giving them buffs or entangling enemies, seeing as you're good for little else, and you can customise them. It's a small enough list that you have no excuse not to prepare the possible Hippogriff sheets ahead of time.

[the_taken]

That was totally wicked. I'm back in a good mood. Thank you.

[JonSetanta]

No.
Words.
Left.


edit: ok I read about it and thought about it some after pronz, and the "1 minute duration" didn't work well.
IMHO to begin with, the duration could be "Concentration + 1 round" and if concentrating is resumed during that last 1 round then the duration can be reset.
As this class progresses, the "1 round" becomes "1 minute" and so on.

[Crissa]

I was reminded today that this is totally a question (with the caveats 'what information do you ask the coders to data mine) in an application for one of the leading MMO design houses. (as in, they've developed and sold more than one MMO that is currently in the black)

-Crissa

[Fwib]

1200016489[/unixtime]]Sure, why not?

The Hippogriff Master

...Stuff about Hippogriffs...

The cohort - anything allowed as long as the base creature is a Hippogriff?

[RandomCasualty]

1199989668[/unixtime]]

So at first level he has entangle (awesome) but his ranged weapon is a sling (bullshit). His spellcasting is frankly lame.

Though if you happen to be indoors, entangle is significantly less awesome.

[Bigode]

On the Same Game Test: true, there's a necromancer there; doesn't that mean you've deemed it "balanced" a priori? Moreover, may I ask why there wasn't (for example) a rogue in there, since it doesn't quite look like the other challenges? And, what about someone making a similar test with, say, the 5 PHB I classes you consider decent?

Druid adept: regardless of whether its gameplay's interesting, do you think it keeps up with same-CR opposition (I think it goes roughly 50/50, unlike the druid)?

And, care to review the other class (beastbrother, linked at the adept post)? The discussion started with me saying it was much inferior - THAT one doesn't keep up with anything (possibly not even with a PHB barbarian). But, if you do, please have in mind Talisman already agreed on giving it a full BAB.

[Username17]

Moreover, may I ask why there wasn't (for example) a rogue in there, since it doesn't quite look like the other challenges?

Because a properly played rogue simply kills one enemy per turn. Which is not terribly interesting in the same game test. Since the players are generally attacking, and an ideal rogue always kills one opponent when laying in ambush, it's really not a fair encounter for anyone - not even a rogue.

I didn't put a Juggernaut on the list either, because it's likewise totally unfair and uninteresting as a tactical challenge.

-Username17

[Bigode]

On the rogue, fine. But something wasn't really answered: for example, what would be the problem with starting a game by designing a bunch of classes (assuming they'd have some level of previsibility - no "can do everything class", specifically), and THEN fitting monsters to it? Of course, that has no bearing on the Tome series specifically, since the monster space in D&D is IMO insultingly large, but it does have, actually, some relation to the New Edition.

[Crissa]

Hehe. That's the #1 complaint by Rogues in Warcraft: 'They might get away!' or 'I lose if they find me!'

Hehe.

That isn't saying they aren't an interesting tactical option: A unit that has a guaranteed kill rate unless targeted.

-Crissa

[Captain_Bleach]

1199987347[/unixtime]]PC classed enemies are 'monsters' with CR equal to their level.

I believed this lie too, in 2003. Now, every thing's changed.

[CatharzGodfoot]

1201812286[/unixtime]]

1199987347[/unixtime]]PC classed enemies are 'monsters' with CR equal to their level.

I believed this lie too, in 2003. Now, every thing's changed.

No. The CR is defined to be such. This may mean that CRs are inconsistant, but if you want to use them as a balance point for where PC classes should be, you can't circularly define their power in terms of PC classes.

OK, so I'm being dogmatic. There are obvious outliers, and some PC classes are among them.