Quick fixes to improve 4e playability

[ckafrica]

Right so it's generally agreed that 4e as it reads in the book is nothing worth writing about (though oddly enough we spend enormous amounts of time doing it anyways; but I digress).

That being said, I'm going home for a month and one of my old gaming buddies has picked up 4e and is gonna want to play it. So what kind of things can we do without doing a massive rewrite that will improve the game?

[Psychic Robot]

--Set skill DCs. Scaling DCs = fail.

--Give players some bonus damage (I'm fond of 1/2 your level), but still watch out for monsters with ridiculously high hitpoints.

--Ignore all skill challenge rules.

--Imbibe copious amounts of alcohol immediately prior to playing.

[Ravengm]

Also, Don't use solo monsters. Seriously, ever.

[Psychic Robot]

Didn't you know? Those are easily fixed by changing the terrain.

[Username17]

The game is made of several subsystems that fail spectacularly in one way or another, mostly involving the game becoming incredibly dull as you spam the left click and right click attack buttons over and over again against monsters with nonsensical powers. Seriously, every time you bloody a monster something stupid happens that there's no way to predict, but at the same time you only have a couple of tools to work with.

The obvious solution to dull player actions would be to give all players a crap tonne more at-will abilities, which makes characters like the Wizard substantially more interesting. Unfortunately, that does fuck all for characters like the Paladin because there are exactly 2 Paladin powers for the Tron Paladin and 2 for the Grind Paladin. Just like you'd never play a human Paladin (Paladin is essentially a Baangra only class), you'd never care about giving extra at-wills. A better solution is to let Encounter powers reactivate on a 5-6 on a d6 every round like they were monster powers.

The obvious solution to the atrociously bad Solo math and incredibly dull grind fest those encounters are is to not use them. Even elites are highly suspect, but solos just can't be used at all.

The obvious solution to the dull grind fests of high level play is to not play at high level. Really, the game stops even making sense after 6th level. So don't give XP, at all, for anything. Pick a level and then just go with it.

And then you're down to skills. Don't use skill challenges, just make people roll straight skill checks and magical teaparty it. That's all you can do.

And now you're down to rituals. Once people learn rituals, they should be able to do them once a day without spending a copper phenig. And the times on most of them should be dropped, but that's less important.

And make sure you roll for stats, because otherwise no one is ever going to have a decent tertiary stat in anything. The best stat generation system I've seen for 4e is to roll dice six times, and then set one stat to an 8 and another stat to an 18.

----

And what will you have at this point? You'll have characters who are almost as interesting as Diablo adventurers, so you can probably take them through the first couple of acts, which will last you through the summer. Woot!

-Username17

[JonSetanta]

--Imbibe copious amounts of alcohol immediately prior to playing.

This helps the most, especially when you drink so much that no one feels like playing 4e.

[Maxus]

I'd increase the number of times you can use encounter or daily powers as they are written. Set that to three or four times. Then take the idea of /enounter or /day powers and buff them up. If I'm going to only be able to use something once a day, I want people to remember that I'd used it.

And then I'd rob Final Fantasy Tactics Advance for some ideas about powers. A 4e Paladin could really benefit from an ability like Holy Blade that lets him take a huge chunk of life out of--or destroy outright--most enemies, and even be effective in putting some hurt on solo enemies (if you're using them). Then I'd decide which classes/roles should likewise get the Ultima powers, and what the other classes should get to keep them from whining.

[Voss]

--Give players some bonus damage (I'm fond of 1/2 your level), but still watch out for monsters with ridiculously high hitpoints.

Actually, for this one, I'd suggest letting your bonuses multiply with the [W]. So instead of of a 2[W] power doing 2d8 +2 +5 +1 (~17), it would do 2d8 + 2*2 + 2*5 +2*1 (~25). [Assuming the 2 is item bonus, 5 is strength bonus and the 1 is for some reason weapon focus). It scales a bit better, as at level 30, you're doing 164.5 rather than ~50.5 with you're big daily attack power, and someone might actually notice.



But also yes, don't use elites and solos at all. Or strip the absurd hit point and defense bonuses off them and keep the extra power or two and the action point. That way their still (compared to other 4e monsters) interesting and dangerous, but you don't have 4-5 or 10-15 extra rounds of spamming at will powers at them in order to grind them to death, long after it stopped being interesting.

[Tydanosaurus]

So far, we are using:

1. No skills. They simply don't work.

2. No Fighters. They simply don't work.

3. Damage bonus of +L/2. Strikers get an extra +1d6 per tier.

4. To Hit bonuses of L/4.

5. Paladin marks all opponents w/ a free action, mark does -4 and 6 +L/2 damage. Paladin can force an opponet to attack it unless it makes a save.

That seems to make things play a little better. The biggest complaints we had were skills, all the missing, and seeming like we didn't do anything.

[CatharzGodfoot]

If you let tide of iron (I think that's right; the knockback ability) work with no shield, fighters get a nice boost. They have to use reach weapons that count as pole arms and heavy blades (that is, the glaive), and the feats needed (polearm gamble and heavy blade opportunity) are paragon tier, but at that point they get one neat little tactical trick to use over and over again.

[Tydanosaurus]

Yes, but in our group:

1. That was kind of boring,

2. The Wizard did the trick just about as well w/ Thunderwhatever, and

3. It was easier to just play a striker or leader.

[MartinHarper]

Options: Gestalt 4e. Pick two classes, use all the powers from both.

Solos: don't use, or make them two stage monsters where at half time the dual-templated kobold inexplicably morphs into a dragon.

Trip: Lots of folks seem to miss at-will trip, so house rule one based off Bull Rush. Strength vs Reflex, knock target prone if you win, no damage.

Diplomacy: Roll Diplomacy vs Will defence, same as Intimidate. Apply circumstantial modifiers as appropriate.

[RandomCasualty2]

I don't really think 4E is as bad as you guys make it out to be.

It's not 3.5 so you can't expect combats to be over super fast. Still, even in the 10th level and 20th level simulations I've run, combats tend to be between 5-9 rounds. That's kind of slow, but it's playable. The main issue with high level combat is that critical hits are very important. IF you're unlucky and not critting much, then combats will take a while longer, but a combat could be over quickly if you do crit alot.

Now as Frank said, solos are something to avoid. They really are boring grind fests with no real excitement.

The base skill system isn't so bad, I'm not sure why people don't like it. there are rules to jump over things, climb rope, and so forth.

For skill challenges, I recommend making them a minor part of the game and enforce the following rules:
-When it's your turn to act in the challenge you must act
-aid another is prohibited.
-skill challenges give no XP inherently though if you use one to bypass a possible encounter, you do get XP for that encounter.
-Feel free to set your own DCs.

That's a quick fix, and obviously skill challenges will still have problems but it will help actually get your game started.

But 4E really is pretty playable out of the box. It's just not for everyone. If you like rocket launcher tag and want waste brutal combat, then 4E is definitely not for you. If you want a casual beer and pretzels style game that's about killing monsters, then I think you'll like 4E.

[Ice9]

The skills actually do have static DCs listed in their entry - the scaling DCs in the DMG are more for an ad-hoc challenge, so just don't use them.

For skill challenges, someone on EN World made a mathematically sound version, which also makes them less protracted.

As for monster HP, I've heard "cut it by half, drop the monster level by one" as a way that doesn't change the monster balance too much. Or for a more extreme version, I like the "[W] includes stat and weapon bonuses" approach, which also makes Encounter and Daily powers more of a jump from at-wills.

Also, I'd go with recharging Encounter powers randomly like monsters do, and recharging a Daily power or two each Milestone. Additionally, I'd change a lot of the Utility powers from Daily to Milestone frequency, meaning they recharge at a milestone automatically.

And rituals, yeah, for most of them the cost could be cut entirely, and even for the rest it could be an order of magnitude lower.

[angelfromanotherpin]

If you want a casual beer and pretzels style game that's about killing monsters and nothing else, then I think you'll like 4E or Descent.

Fixed that for you.

[Absentminded_Wizard]

I loved how RC was straight-up about repeating the allegation that all anti-4e people are rocket-tag munchkins but tried to weasel the criticism that 4e doesn't particularly encourage roleplaying outside the dungeon.

[TarkisFlux]

--Imbibe copious amounts of alcohol immediately prior to and for the entire duration of playing.

Fixed that for you. If I stopped drinking, sobered up a bit, and realized what I was doing, I'd be fvcking pissed.

[Voss]

If you want a casual beer and pretzels style game that's about killing monsters and nothing else, then I think you'll like 4E or Descent. or Advanced Heroquest/Warhammer Quest.

Fixed that for you.

more options!

[RandomCasualty2]

I loved how RC was straight-up about repeating the allegation that all anti-4e people are rocket-tag munchkins but tried to weasel the criticism that 4e doesn't particularly encourage roleplaying outside the dungeon.

Honestly, I don't think 3E or 4E encourages roleplaying outside the dungeon. 3E encourages you replace all your social encounters with one skill check, and 4E encourages you to replace them with skill challenges.

Neither system particularly works well. The 3E system leads to game breaking results, and the 4E skill challenge system is a mix of bad math and magic teaparty.

I just hate the anti 4E argument that it's somehow less roleplaying oriented than 3.5, Seriously people, 3.5 wasn't very roleplaying oriented either.

The "4E has less roleplaying" argument is pretty much BS. Just like the idea that 4E goblins can't be sneaky and cunning.

I have yet to hear why you can't run a roleplaying heavy 4E game.

[The 13 Wise Buttlords]

3.5E does hand out items and abilities that don't have any immediate use in combat and required actual roleplaying to get the most out of them. They tend to be pretty minor like 'have access to a network of Harpers' or 'the wizard's guild has your back', but they still had them.

You can't beat something with nothing.

[angelfromanotherpin]

You totally can run a roleplaying heavy 4e game. But it's in exactly the same way you can play a roleplaying-heavy game of chess. There's literally nothing in the game to support it.

[RandomCasualty2]

3.5E does hand out items and abilities that don't have any immediate use in combat and required actual roleplaying to get the most out of them. They tend to be pretty minor like 'have access to a network of Harpers' or 'the wizard's guild has your back', but they still had them.

You can't beat something with nothing.

Well honestly those abilities tended to be crap like "gains a +4 bonus to diplomacy checks when dealing with group X"

I mean when I do roleplaying in 3.5 I do hardly any dice rolls, and people talk to NPCs and have fun.

When I do roleplaying in 4E, it's the same. I'm not sure why people inherently need abilities to roleplay.

[The 13 Wise Buttlords]

When I do roleplaying in 4E, it's the same. I'm not sure why people inherently need abilities to roleplay.

Because then otherwise the game devolves to you and your buddies wondering how and when you can affect the world and the DM force-feeding you available options when he thinks your characters can affect the narrative.

For example, take Exalted. There's a school of supernatural martial arts in the game that the Solar Race can technically learn, but the in-game setting has had the (Sidereal) masters intentionally engineer their deaths and are disinclined as a whole to teach Solars this martial art tree. If your Solar is like 'oh shit, I REALLY want to learn Charcoal March of Spiders no matter what, where can I find a master', then you're at the mercy of the DM in order to learn it. He might tell you 'fuck no, get over it' and then you're just boned.

HOWEVER there's a single Sidereal Martial Art school that teaches its form charms in dreams. You don't need a master to learn the introductory charms. But most importantly, halfway in the middle of the martial art one of the abilities is 'find a Sidereal master who is willing to teach you the rest of this school'.

Is it efficient? No, you're learning charms you probably don't want to. Is it fair? No; it's not a balance issue, it's a setting issue that the DM may or may not handwave. But is it a roleplaying ability? Fuck yeah it is. Your character has an opportunity to explore an avenue he might not otherwise be able to. And the best part is, unless your DM is intentionally being a prick, doing so doesn't require his specific input.

In 3E, there were guidelines to doing some things, like summoning an army from nowhere or negotiating the services of an elemental lord or commanding a horde of zombies. Yes, it's not a lot but you can't beat something with nothing. I want to start my own guild in the middle of a swamp. In 3E, this was handled by taking the leadership feat and/or paying a bunch of NPCs to do tasks required by the guild after using spells to conjure rock and shape raw materials however you see fit.

How do you make a guild in 4E? Who knows! Guess you're at your DM's mercy.

[RandomCasualty2]

Is it efficient? No, you're learning charms you probably don't want to. Is it fair? No; it's not a balance issue, it's a setting issue that the DM may or may not handwave. But is it a roleplaying ability? Fuck yeah it is.

I think our definition of roleplaying is vastly different. You seem to see roleplaying as trying to circumvent the authority of the DM and the world's storyline. Actually what your propose is the antithesis of roleplaying. you just want to say, "fuck your world DM, fuck the storyline, I want to play what I want to play, and I'm going to use the rules to do it, not actually have my character do anything in game."

Roleplaying isn't about obtaining a ton of character power and giving the finger to your DM. It's not about playing a space marine in futuristic armor in Forgotten Realms.

Roleplaying is about becoming a part of the DM's world and working within that framework and coming up with a character concept, not creating some concept that doesn't fit the world and trying to rules lawyer your way in.

Learning a lost martial arts style because your character went through the trouble of finding and convincing an ailing martial arts master to teach you by gradually earning his trust is roleplaying. Getting instant gratification by learning it out of some lame dream state isn't. That's just optimizing your character and has nothing to do with roleplaying. You haven't interacted with the world, no in fact you've deliberately dumpster dived into the rules to find a way to AVOID interacting with the world.

How do you make a guild in 4E? Who knows! Guess you're at your DM's mercy.

Yeah, guess if you want NPC allies, you've got to... *GASP* ... Talk to NPCs in character! You have to interact with people, make them offers as to why they should join your guild. You have to go out there and make allies.

HOLY FUCK, I mean you'd think you were roleplaying or something!

Nah, lets skip all that talking part and the part where you have to have a realistic story about why people would join your guild... Lets skip right to the part where you've got 200 soldiers who act like slaves because it says they have to in the rules. NPCs aren't supposed to have personalities anyway, they're just mindless automatons for the PCs' amusement who behave in whatever way the PC tells them. And whenever your NPCs wnat to disobey your obviously suicidal orders, your character whips out a copy of the PHB from his backpack and shows it to them, insisting that they aren't real and are just mindless drones.

Yah, that's so much better for roleplaying, glad we had that rule in there.

And after we're done with that lets all go have a big PC circle jerk celebration after the D&D game.

[Absentminded_Wizard]

I loved how RC was straight-up about repeating the allegation that all anti-4e people are rocket-tag munchkins but tried to weasel the criticism that 4e doesn't particularly encourage roleplaying outside the dungeon.

Honestly, I don't think 3E or 4E encourages roleplaying outside the dungeon. 3E encourages you replace all your social encounters with one skill check, and 4E encourages you to replace them with skill challenges.

Neither system particularly works well. The 3E system leads to game breaking results, and the 4E skill challenge system is a mix of bad math and magic teaparty.

I just hate the anti 4E argument that it's somehow less roleplaying oriented than 3.5, Seriously people, 3.5 wasn't very roleplaying oriented either.

The "4E has less roleplaying" argument is pretty much BS. Just like the idea that 4E goblins can't be sneaky and cunning.

I have yet to hear why you can't run a roleplaying heavy 4E game.

Of course you *could* run a roleplaying heavy 4e game if you're willing to make up all the RP rules. I mean, the rules actually give no real guidelines for assigning Diplomacy DCs. Sure, the description of Diplomacy says that it's *usually* used in skill challenges, but it also gives the DM the option of using single Diplomacy checks. However, there are no actual guidelines for what the DC should be in such situations. This is just one piece of evidence that the designers just didn't care about this aspect of the game.

You can always make up your own systems to get around this shortcoming, but it's a problem for any new player who picks up 4e. And there's the irony. If 4e somehow draws new players to the hobby, are they going to stick around when they realize that the game they've been playing, the only one they know how to play because of designer laziness, is really like a videogame but less efficient?