Champions Mechanics + Min-Max

[The 13 Wise Buttlords]

Okay, so, since M&M seems to be a complete wash especially with 4th Ed, let's try a game system that has some life in it still:

CHAMPIONS!!!

Now, I've heard good things about this system, the only problem is that I haven't heard a lot. So, fans and detractors of the system, this is your chance to sound off.

And give general min-max tips if I plan to buy the book.

[Username17]

Min/Max is absurdly easy. We'll start with the fact that every 10 points of Constitution you buy gives you 10.5 points of figured characteristics. The rule that you can only sell back one figured characteristic is mandatory, as is the suggestion that you put strict limits on the power ranges for the game you run.

Elemental Controls and Multipowers straight give you points. That's their actual job in life. Making a character "in theme" is supposed to make you better. And it does.

For a specific game, you will want:

All attacks to be within a few dice of each other.
All defenses to be pretty comparable to each other in overall range (13-23 is acceptable, 3-33 is not).
All speeds to be pretty close. (it's your actions stat, so it gets super dull if one person has a lot more than another).
All OCVs and DCVs to be near one another.

And there's a reason for those magnifying glass and stop signs. It's a very open system, and breaks all the way apart if you try to break it. If someone asks to be a tunneling character with X-Ray Vision and Mind Blast you just have to tell them "No."

-Username17

[angelfromanotherpin]

Min/Max is absurdly easy. We'll start with the fact that every 10 points of Constitution you buy gives you 10.5 points of figured characteristics.

Pfft. CON? DEX is the king of undercosted. Every 3 points you spend in DEX is worth 1/3 of an OCV [5/3 of a point], 1/3 of a DCV [5/3 of a point] (and already that's more than 3 points), 1/10 of a SPD [1 point], 1/5 of a DEX Skills Level [1 point], a point of initiative [2/3 of a point], and probably a couple of miscellaneous things I'm missing.

Frank is exactly right about everything he mentions. Champions is not an inherently balanced system, although it does give you broad guidelines to help balance it yourself. It also does what it was designed to do without equal.

One thing to remember is that power level is not set by point limit, but by the CV limits, the Damage Class and Defense limits, etc, etc. Points only let you be more broadly competent within those limits. Breaking the actual power level limits is how you get villains capable of going solo against a superhero team.

[Hey_I_Can_Chan]

And here I thought it was Str that was undercosted. Every 5 points gets you a 1d6 attack power (3-5 points), movement (1" of horizontal leaping--1 point), 1/5 point of PD, 1/5 of a point of Rec, and some weird fraction of STUN.

The ability to combine your offense, defense, and movement into one stat is awesome in its versatility.
_________________________

Champions sucks because it takes too fucking long. Combat's an absolute drag unless you've super experienced players who understand the nuances. I've heard a fan of the system say that Champions is a combat system with role-playing grafted onto it. And that's what it is, but it's ability to simulate, literally, any genre is unsurpassed.

I tout Spycraft 2.0 a lot, but even it can't effectively simulate a full conversion cyborg, a dragon, a spree-killing meth addict, and Bob the Well-Educated Doctor on the same team (yet). Champions can.

[Koumei]

I tout Spycraft 2.0 a lot, but even it can't effectively simulate a full conversion cyborg, a dragon, a spree-killing meth addict, and Bob the Well-Educated Doctor on the same team (yet). Champions can.

Really? In a way that they're balanced and can all be useful in the same team? If so, I might need to look into it.

[Josh_Kablack]

The blessing and the curse of the HERO system is that it isn't a RPG system.

It's a meta-system that you can adapt/shoehorn into a system appropriate for just about anything.

This means that it is chok-full of potentially game-breaking mechanics (ftl move-bys; negative point-value minions; usable by others bought usable by others to work as a power multiplier), and it is up to the GM to decide what level of crazy-powerful is appropriate for his game.

While Champs can do anything, be prepared to but a whole lot of work into it if you try to do anything that isn't very close to some type of superheros games.

Combat is not simple, but it's really not notably more complex than upper-mid level 3.x D&D. However, D&D hides complexity by adding a bit each level, HERO hits you with everything up front- which can be very intimidating.

There are three mechanics that make it seem more opaque to newbs than it really is:

• The to hit calculation is simple on paper, but arcane in practice. To hit you need to roll less than ( 11 + Attacker's OCV - Defender's DCV ) on 3d6. This would be pretty straightforward, except in actual gameplay it works something like this:
  

  DM: What's your OCV?
  Player: 8
  DM: Okay, his DCV is 6
  Player: Sweet, I'm plus two
  DM: Right, you need a 13 or less.

  Makes total sense if you know the formula. If you don't you are left with trying to figger how 8, 6 and "plus two" yield a 13.
• The speed chart. Turns are taken based on character speed, which means that the turn order get confusing to people who are not experienced with the system. Even with a fairly-Champs experienced group, I usually delegate initiative keeping to a veteran player and a small chalkboard when I run champs.
• Calculating Stun and BODY. Most attacks do both STUN (pain) and BODY (actually serious wounds) both values are calculated from the same damage roll. Normal attacks count the total on all the dice as the STUN total, and do one point of body for each die that shows a 2-5, zero points of body for each die that shows a 1 and two points of body for each die that shows a 6. In practice, this has veterans totaling the body very rapidly and shouting out stuff like "up 2 body, so 14" - which is again very mystifying if you don't already know the formula. Even worse, not all attacks are Normal attacks - there is a separate formula for Killing Attacks, and a number of different exotic attacks only do STUN.

[Hey_I_Can_Chan]

Really? In a way that they're balanced and can all be useful in the same team? If so, I might need to look into it.

Maybe. It depends on what you as the GM allow everyone to do. You're golden if the full conversion cyborg has super strength, virtual invulnerability, and some built in guns; the dragon is big (but not huge), flies, and breathes fire; the spree killer has super speed, pain resistance, and a machine gun; and the doctor has a knowledge of anatomy that let's him locate opponent's weak points, the ability to read body language to such a degree he can anticipate attacks, and hurl scalpels with deadly accuracy.

And you, if you want things truly balanced, also must mandate that the cyborg know something about electronics and mechanics, the dragon about the occult, the spree killer about streetwise, and the doctor about medicine.

But the other way of considering Champions is this: the point values exist for a reason, so if a player chooses to spend 45 points in, or instance, the Mechanics skill (getting him a roll of 30- on 3d6), you, as a GM, should recognize that that player wants that skill to be as useful as being able to teleport 250 ft. in a second or be able to lift a superheavy tank. And if it won't be, you should tell the player his character's unbalanced.

So, yeah, like Josh says, Champions makes you plan a lot before you ever sit down at the table. Even moreso than most games.