Acid/Sonic & Hardness

[virgil]

I think I may have asked this before, but what kind of argument can I use to support the idea that acid/sonic damage ignore hardness? One of my DMs is under the impression that they don't.

Each object has hardness—a number that represents how well it resists damage. Whenever an object takes damage, subtract its hardness from the damage. Only damage in excess of its hardness is deducted from the object’s hit points

Acid and sonic attacks deal damage to most objects just as they do to creatures; roll damage and apply it normally after a successful hit. Electricity and fire attacks deal half damage to most objects; divide the damage dealt by 2 before applying the hardness. Cold attacks deal one-quarter damage to most objects; divide the damage dealt by 4 before applying the hardness.

He seems to be taking the first part to heart, not seeing any kind of exception being made mention of in the second part where acid/sonic actually ignore it.

If I can find some kind of canonical reference material, that would be ideal, as normal debate is difficult for me.

Unless of course he's in the right and I've been wrong all these years.

[Draco_Argentum]

You normally subtract hardness when applying damage. With just those quotes I'd side with your DM. I thought some spells were sonic and hardness ignoring but that it wasn't a general rule.

[fliprushman]

I would side with your DM as well. Unless the spell states otherwise, you apply hardness to all damage just as the rule from the SRD states.

[Maxus]

Creatures don't normally have hardness, do they?

Maybe you can compromise and have Acid/Sonic damage reduce hardness until it reaches the point where it's doing full damage.

But I've always thought that acid and sonic damage bypassed hardness because, well, one's eating away at the material and doesn't give a damn how solid it is, and the other's screwing with the matter itself and, well, doesn't give a damn how solid it is.

[virgil]

Part of my confusion is the fact that virtually any mention of acid/sonic on any forum includes people saying "ignores hardness", and until recently, I neither saw nor heard contrary to this.

The entire thing got me rethinking, because of that whole RAW vs word-of-mouth thing has cropped up before.

[Manxome]

For what it's worth, I remember destroying hard objects in Neverwinter Nights by using sonic damage (from a magical weapon) that ignored the objects' hardness.

I also seem to recall a discussion on this forum involving the claim that fire damage ignores hardness of flammable objects.

Also, the SRD says that energy damage bypasses DR, which I know works at least similarly to hardness...

[JonSetanta]

It seems that acid and sonic ignore hardness outright.

Magic energy does indeed ignore hardness but the trait of being an "object" applies that special reduction to non-acid and non-sonic damage.
That's different from just having hardness on, say, a Construct.

As a house rule I'd suggest unifying the rules for all energy when applying damage to objects; either all elements ignore hardness, or they are all halved.
It will make your life easier.
Talk that out with your DM.

[SphereOfFeetMan]

For what it's worth, I remember destroying hard objects in Neverwinter Nights by using sonic damage (from a magical weapon) that ignored the objects' hardness.

Better than a Rogue. I just used elemental arrows and sundered the chests/triggered the traps from across the room.

[virgil]

DR is a different animal from hardness, so that doesn't help. And I'm honestly trying to find actual rules that would support the idea of almost anything ignoring hardness without the specific effect saying that it does. I think the FAQ has a section explaining that hardness really is all-encompassing, but I'll need to look around to find the exact quote for copy+paste fun.

[fliprushman]

I found what you were looking for. It's on Page 74 of the FAQ.

Many animated objects have hardness scores. What
affect, if any, will an animated object’s hardness have on
spells used against the animated object? For example, an
animated wooden table would have hardness 5, right? How
would that hardness affect spells such as fireball, lightning
bolt, Melf’s acid arrow, ray of frost, and magic missile?

If the spell in question has an energy descriptor, hardness
affects the attack as noted in the rules for damaging inanimate
objects (see page 165 in the Player’s Handbook); here’s a
summary:
• Hardness applies to acid and sonic attacks. These
attacks deal normal damage both to creatures and to
objects, and thus would deal normal damage to an
animated object (less the effect of the hardness). You
would subtract 5 points for hardness from whatever
damage a Melf’s acid arrow spell deals to the
animated table in your example.
• Hardness applies to electricity and fire attacks. These
attacks deal half damage to inanimate objects, but
animated objects are creatures and they take full
damage (less the effect of the hardness). You would
subtract 5 points for hardness from whatever damage
a fireball or lightning bolt spell deals to the animated
table in your example. Reduce the damage for a
successful saving throw before you apply hardness.
• Hardness also applies to cold damage. Cold attacks
deal one-quarter damage to inanimate objects, but
again, an animated object takes full damage less the
effect of the hardness. You would subtract 5 points of
damage for hardness from whatever damage a ray of
frost spell deals to the animated table in your
example. Since ray of frost deals only 1d3 points of
damage, it will prove ineffective against the animated
table unless you somehow increase the damage the
spell deals.
• Hardness applies to force attacks. These attacks deal
normal damage both to creatures and to objects
(when applicable), and thus would deal normal
damage to an animated object (less the effect of the
hardness). You would subtract 5 points for hardness
from whatever damage a magic missile spell deals to
the animated table in your example. A magic missile
spell normally cannot be aimed at an object. Because
an animated object is a creature, however, it can
affect the animated table in the example.

[/quote]

[CatharzGodfoot]

And I'm honestly trying to find actual rules that would support the idea of almost anything ignoring hardness without the specific effect saying that it does.

Wolverine ignores all hardness less than 20.