What Power Sources do we Believe in?

[Username17]

So we've been arguing about what flavors are required to be D&D-esque. So, what are they? Obviously cutting things finer involves more role protection and less variation within a theme for however many

• Air Power
• Ancient Power
• Arcane Power
• Astral Power
• Blood Power
• Celestial Power
• Chaos Power
• Cold Power
• Dark Power
• Demonic Power
• Divine Power
• Draconic Power
• Earth Power
• Elemental Power
• Ethereal Power
• Evil Power
• Fire Power
• Fire Power
• Glamor Power
• Good Power
• Infernal Power
• Ki Power
• Law Power
• Light Power
• Madness Power
• Nature Power
• Necromantic Power
• Negative Power
• Planar Power
• Positive Power
• Primal Power
• Psionic Power
• Sacred Power
• Shadow Power
• Titan Power
• Water Power

Now personally I prefer a reductionist model where, for example, all sacredness, divinity, demons, devils, angels, chaos, and whatever is all lumped into Planar Power and that's just collectively what Clerics use. But I cold definitely see an argument for splitting Clerics into shiny clerics of good and shaded villainous clerics of the Mazoku or whatever.

So the question comes down: which of these do you think should be enshrined? And if you would want other ones, which ones? And why?

-Username17

[Orion]

My Proposal:

Light Power
Dark Power
Ki Power
Shadow Power
Elf Power
Elemental Power

[RandomCasualty2]

Now personally I prefer a reductionist model where, for example, all sacredness, divinity, demons, devils, angels, chaos, and whatever is all lumped into Planar Power and that's just collectively what Clerics use. But I cold definitely see an argument for splitting Clerics into shiny clerics of good and shaded villainous clerics of the Mazoku or whatever.

I always have trouble with how to do clerics. On one hand you picture a cleric of the god of fire to be way different than one of the god of healing, but it's rather impractical to try to write them out as several different classes. I almost think that you may want to go the 2E route and have cleric spheres or something for different power sources, you could use the same spheres for wizards as well, so that fire clerics and fire mages draw from the same list of fire spells. That'd probably require that you ditch the "clerics can cast in armor" trope though, since you'd have mages and clerics using the same spells, only probably a different caster stat.

As for which sources to have, I say have all of the ones listed, at least eventually. You'll probably want to focus on the most popular ones initially, and I'd probably divide Arcane power into several schools of magic. But I think the game should really be built with the idea that you can freely create new power sources and not cause that big of a problem.

[Talisman]

Light power (good, healing, happiness)
Dark power (evil, necromancy, puppy-killing)
Primal power (ancient, wild magic, nature)
Mental power (psionics, ki, etc)

and

Skill (this is what class like the fighter and rogue use - it's not overtly magical; it's just human skill escalated to superhuman levels).

[fliprushman]

That list of Sources is overwhelming! I would have to agree that a reduction is in order. As for some help reducing it, the cleric could just get his power from a Divine/Planar/Light/Dark or something along those lines but he gets a sphere/domain that shows what god he is attached to. And if you add in Spheres/domains to one list, you can do it to others like elemental(Fire vs. Water) or even martial(So a Axe sphere would feel different than a Sword Sphere). Now the only thing left to do is get the list down a little and then to get a list of spheres.

[Bigode]

Asuraloka = Elemental
Naraka = Death
Pretaloka = Mental
Tiryagyoni = Natural
Yāma = Planar

Yeah, fvck "Western" stuff (if it was actually Western, I'd show some respect).

[CatharzGodfoot]

So we've been arguing about what flavors are required to be D&D-esque. So, what are they?

By cutting out any power source, you make the game somewhat less D&D-esque (and probably make it better as well).

I think I see where you're going with this, but it might be better to do it bottom-up (start with the classes, derive the powers) rather than top-down.

To go purely with the 3e PHB classes, you have Martial/Ki power (fighter, monk, barbarian), Dragon power (sorcerer), Nature power (ranger, druid), Planar power (Cleric), Christian power (paladin), Arcane power (wizard), and Trickster power (bard and rogue). An argument could be made for Angry powered barbarians.
But, in D&D power source is no indication of the powers gained.

That said, I think we should have the following:

• Life (includes shapechanging, healing, growing food, etc)
• Arcane (including 'Science!')

Even though the first might be too limited and the second too unlimited.

Depending on cosmology, Planar power may be appropriate. God power + afterlife power => necromancy in the original sense (speaking with the dead) as well as raising them up and sending them away. Also calling up angelic and demonic spirits.
In most setting, however, the gods themselves represent different power sources. That fucks with the whole idea of 'planar power', and probably invalidates it.

[K]

I prefer an emergent model.

For example, Life and Death sources can easily be Blood for Blood Sorcerers or Fate for Reapers. Dragon is combination of Giant Lizard and Elemental and Magic, while any particular demon is using Demon and [insert anything here].

The only value to sources is to either:

A. Pigeon-hole potential powers, or

B. Pigeon-hole potenial themes

Therefor, once Clerics and Demons are both using an Extraplanar source, you fail on both goals.

[K]

dp

[Judging__Eagle]

Elemental
Things that can be mixed with others like them (not their opposites) and still be a distinct new thing (air + water = cold, earth + water = mud, fire + water = steam/plasma).
* Air Power
* Cold Power
* Fire Power
* Fire Power
* Water Power
* Elemental Power
* Earth Power

Aligned
Things that have a distinct opposite, and only one opposite.

Life/Death, Celestial/Infernal, Law/Chaos, Good/Evil.

Additionally, when mixed with other non-opposite Alignments, they don't stop being aligned with what they used to be aligned with and somehow become a new thing.

Basically you can't have a Lawful and Good creature that is somehow no longer Lawful because they became Good, nor are they no longer Good because they became Lawful. Such a creature is not some new thing, they're just both lawful and good and gain their power from their original source.

So, Celestial Death Power creatures and Infernal Positive Power artifacts should exist. Celestial Infernal things can't, and I think that everyone is fine with that.

If a creature's mom was a Marilith and your dad was a Solar, they get to pick sources (Demonic, Chaos, Evil or Good, Chaos/Neutral/Law, Celestial); you just can't have inimical powers in the same thing. The creature's siblings from the same parents could be a different mix of demonic/celestial; evil/good etc.
* Celestial Power
* Chaos Power
* Dark Power
* Demonic Power
* Divine Power
* Evil Power
* Good Power
* Infernal Power
* Law Power
* Light Power
* Necromantic Power
* Negative Power
* Planar Power
* Positive Power
* Shadow Power
* Sacred Power

Unaligned
Powers that just are and are not automatically inimical to any specific thing over any other thing. So, a Craw Wyrm will crush a golem as equally as it would attack an angel; the power of it's target is what matters, not that it's a Nature Power creature attacking an Arcane power thing (golem) or a Celestial (and good, lawful, light, divine and/or chaotic) powered creautre (angel).
* Blood Power
* Draconic Power
* Ancient Power [old stuff is powerful, or... powerful stuff just lasts a long time?
* Arcane Power
* Titan Power [I'm assuming being big and immortal?]
* Madness Power
* Nature Power

Trained
All creatures have much more power than they tap into normally. Trained power sources teach you how to tap into such sources.
* Psionic Power
* Ki Power
Note: Ki, Qi, Nen, Chakra, The Force etc. is all the same BS with a different label


Unsure

* Glamor Power [you look good? are charming?]
* Primal Power [Is this nature or just the untamed or what?]


--------

Just my take.

[Voss]

Ancient power needs to go. Its another type of power that modern people just happen not to know.

Blood power can hit the curb. It can be jammed under something else based on people's prejudices (anywhere from healing to demonic)

Celestial/Divine/positive/sacred is often redundant.
so is
Demonic/Infernal and
Dark/Shadow.
and necromantic/negative.

Draconic is debatable and could just be divided into various elemental

Ethereal power is essentially meaningless.
Planar is unflavored divine/celestial/or whatever an isn't actually a thing.
Titan?
Primal is essentially meaningless alongside nature and all the elements
Madness... is that really a power?

A lot of this needs to go.

[Judging__Eagle]

DP.... the boards were acting funny when I first posted this. When I got home, my wireless network's signal strength is... much weaker than I'd like, resulting in pages that begin to load, then don't or go at a snail's pace.

Sorry for the posts in quadruplicate.

[Judging__Eagle]

Triple post. >_>

[Username17]

Therefor, once Clerics and Demons are both using an Extraplanar source, you fail on both goals.

Unsurprisingly, I completely disagree. The top end of almost every Cleric PrC is "you become an outsider." The top end of the entire Celestial pyramid is some winged dudes who cast a bunch of Cleric spells. The idea that angels would be drawing powers off the same list as Clerics does not "fail" to establish consistency of theme and ability - quite the opposite. The idea that outsiders should get a different power list from the Clerics whose power orignates from the same source is frankly bizarre. Of course the Cleric of Pelor should be drawing his powers off whatever list the Solar is drawing his off of, because historically he always has.

Now I can accommodate a worldview where Balors and Pit Fiends have a different power set from Solars (even though let's face it: the top end of the Fiendish attack routine is implosion - which is of course a Cleric spell). But there's no call or excuse for a Priest of Asmodeus to have a different power set from the Pit Fiend. Recall that the thing that people have been constantly trying to layer on those Clerics is stuf like aspect of the deity that literally just turns him into a Pit Fiend.

---

Now having said that, I would probably appreciate a setup like Conan in which the Cleric was simply eliminated as an expectation and people who wanted to be Fire Priests simply announced that they were part of the priesthood and otherwise made Fire Wizard characters. Priests of Crom just run around stabbing fools and priests of Set are just like Jaffar.

But nothing is lost or failed just because a Sun Priest and a Sun Angel have the same ability set. Very much the opposite in fact.

-Username17

[Psychic Robot]

• Air Power
• Cold Power
• Elemental Power
• Earth Power
• Fire Power
• Nature Power
• Water Power

Elemental Power?

[*]Astral Power
[*]Celestial Power
[*]Chaos Power
[*]Dark Power
[*]Demonic Power
[*]Divine Power
[*]Evil Power
[*]Infernal Power
[*]Good Power
[*]Law Power
[*]Negative Power
[*]Planar Power
[*]Positive Power
[*]Sacred Power

Planar Power?

[*]Ancient Power
[*]Arcane Power
[*]Draconic Power
[*]Primal Power
[*]Titan Power

Bloodline Power?

[*]Blood Power
[*]Necromantic Power
[*]Shadow Power

Death Power?

[*]Madness Power
[*]Psionic Power
[*]Ki Power

Mind Power?

[*]Ethereal Power
[*]Glamor Power
[*]Light Power

I don't know.

[Talisman]

Now having said that, I would probably appreciate a setup like Conan in which the Cleric was simply eliminated as an expectation and people who wanted to be Fire Priests simply announced that they were part of the priesthood and otherwise made Fire Wizard characters. Priests of Crom just run around stabbing fools and priests of Set are just like Jaffar.

Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes.

Kill the "cleric" as a class and any spellcaster can take a feat or just flat-out SAY they're the servant of a god.

Hell, nonspellcasters could be priests as well.

[opera]

Hi! Been lurking here a while, but the recent threads about roles and classes seem especially interesting, and made me want to participate....

I also prefer a simpler set of powers, but a set that includes non-magical sources of power; IMHO, *every* class should have one or more explicitly associated unique power sources, magical or not.

I see a broad power source breakdown like this:
- Innate/trained physical prowess
- Gadgets & tools (only borderline D&D-ish, I suppose)
- Elemental
- Extraplanar
- Life force (including psychic stuff)

That's one breakdown, but perhaps not the most useful from a flavor or mechanical perspective. I think a slightly more useful one might be something like this:
- Dark (negative energy, demons, negation of life/existence)
- Light (positive energy, celestial powers, life/existence)
- Grey (neutral, dividing, control of life/nature, shadow)
- Energy (raw elements; air, fire, electricity, etc.)
- Alchemy (occult science)
- Mechanica (clockwork, maybe steam)
- Physical (preternatural strength/toughness/skill, biological aberration)

[TarkisFlux]

I honestly don't know how to answer this question without reference to a cosmology, and I'm not sufficiently versed in the TNE cosmology to posit an answer that would move the conversation along. Does it even make sense to talk about power sources without explicit reference to a cosmology? All the sources that don't come from deep within yourself (ki, psi, marfail) come from outside the prime...

[opera]

Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes.

Kill the "cleric" as a class and any spellcaster can take a feat or just flat-out SAY they're the servant of a god.

Hell, nonspellcasters could be priests as well.

IIRC, that's the way Monte Cook's Arcana Evolved handled priests/clerics. I thought it worked pretty well.

[Manxome]

There's also another reason why having defined power sources is potentially nice, apart from pigeonholing powers or theme: it allows you to have mechanics that interact with particular power sources.

Knowing whether a machine is mechanical or electrical helps you determine what ought to happen to it if it gets zapped by lightning; knowing whether an liquid burns your skin off because it's hot or acidic helps you determine how to neutralize the effect.

We can have actual rules (or at least make things easier for players to adjudicate) for dealing with different power sources if we actually know what they are and how they work.

Admittedly, things like antimagic probably shouldn't exist (except maybe as a plot device), but knowing that a death bolt technically works by rupturing the veil to the afterlife or that a holy fire requires tacit permission of your patron diety allows us to write more consistent and logical rules and tell more consistent and logical stories than if they were just stat blocks. I happen to like verisimilitude.

Of course, one possible approach is to define a few "main" power sources and then make a bunch of variations on them; if we have a "planar" power source, we could have a bunch of different planes that are totally different in terms of powers and theme but which all interact with the world on the same basic principles...

[K]

Therefor, once Clerics and Demons are both using an Extraplanar source, you fail on both goals.

Unsurprisingly, I completely disagree. The top end of almost every Cleric PrC is "you become an outsider." The top end of the entire Celestial pyramid is some winged dudes who cast a bunch of Cleric spells. The idea that angels would be drawing powers off the same list as Clerics does not "fail" to establish consistency of theme and ability - quite the opposite. The idea that outsiders should get a different power list from the Clerics whose power orignates from the same source is frankly bizarre. Of course the Cleric of Pelor should be drawing his powers off whatever list the Solar is drawing his off of, because historically he always has.

Now I can accommodate a worldview where Balors and Pit Fiends have a different power set from Solars (even though let's face it: the top end of the Fiendish attack routine is implosion - which is of course a Cleric spell). But there's no call or excuse for a Priest of Asmodeus to have a different power set from the Pit Fiend. Recall that the thing that people have been constantly trying to layer on those Clerics is stuf like aspect of the deity that literally just turns him into a Pit Fiend.

---

Now having said that, I would probably appreciate a setup like Conan in which the Cleric was simply eliminated as an expectation and people who wanted to be Fire Priests simply announced that they were part of the priesthood and otherwise made Fire Wizard characters. Priests of Crom just run around stabbing fools and priests of Set are just like Jaffar.

But nothing is lost or failed just because a Sun Priest and a Sun Angel have the same ability set. Very much the opposite in fact.

-Username17

Except I never said Sun Priest and Sun Angel, or Cleric and Angel, or anything like that.

I said Cleric and Demon.

People expect demons to have poison claws and flaming auras. They expect clerics to not have those things. Therefor, if they share the same power source then the idea of power sources has failed.

But I could go on.... there aren't two things that are supposed to share the same source that have the same powers. You actually can't put two DnD concepts together that might share a source, which is different from settings like Avatar where Fire Benders and Dragons do actually use the exact same powers and can even teach each other.

DnD clerics are martial and holy/unholy. Fighters are martial. Paladins are martial/holy, and these three concepts have powers on their list that coincide and powers that don't, and those are the one's that are designed to be mixed concepts. Of course, it is reasonable for a cleric of Asmodeus to have demon powers, but to do that you have to accept that they are using a different power source from Sun Clerics.

This is simply a situation where reductionism doesn't have any value, and in fact only harms. The instant you can't have a weird fringe source like Blood as a power source, you can't tell Legend of the Five Rings stories with their "iconic villain for the setting" Iuchiban. The instant you try to put a rogue and fighter under the martial source, you have to make them one class.

Like I said, the value of sources is thematic or mechanical limitations, otherwise it is just fluff like 4e. If it's just fluff, tell me now and I can just ignore this thread like I ignore all the other non-functioning ideas.

[CatharzGodfoot]

...Of course the Cleric of Pelor should be drawing his powers off whatever list the Solar is drawing his off of, because historically he always has.

Now I can accommodate a worldview where Balors and Pit Fiends have a different power set from Solars (even though let's face it: the top end of the Fiendish attack routine is implosion - which is of course a Cleric spell). But there's no call or excuse for a Priest of Asmodeus to have a different power set from the Pit Fiend. Recall that the thing that people have been constantly trying to layer on those Clerics is stuf like aspect of the deity that literally just turns him into a Pit Fiend.

---

Now having said that, I would probably appreciate a setup like Conan in which the Cleric was simply eliminated as an expectation and people who wanted to be Fire Priests simply announced that they were part of the priesthood and otherwise made Fire Wizard characters. Priests of Crom just run around stabbing fools and priests of Set are just like Jaffar.

But nothing is lost or failed just because a Sun Priest and a Sun Angel have the same ability set. Very much the opposite in fact.

-Username17

Except I never said Sun Priest and Sun Angel, or Cleric and Angel, or anything like that.

I said Cleric and Demon.

People expect demons to have poison claws and flaming auras. They expect clerics to not have those things. Therefor, if they share the same power source then the idea of power sources has failed.

Wow, sounds like you're in violent agreement. Now that we've gotten over the 'demonic and celestial power should be separate' hump, where does that leave us?

[Manxome]

The instant you try to put a rogue and fighter under the martial source, you have to make them one class.

Wait, what? Where the hell did that come from?

Not that making rogues and fighters the same class doesn't sound like a perfectly reasonable and viable idea (I seem to recall an argument from the uncompleted Tome material about how all sorts of iconic heroes are really rogues), but where does the "have to" come in?

[Talisman]

The instant you try to put a rogue and fighter under the martial source, you have to make them one class.

Wait, what? Where the hell did that come from?

Not that making rogues and fighters the same class doesn't sound like a perfectly reasonable and viable idea (I seem to recall an argument from the uncompleted Tome material about how all sorts of iconic heroes are really rogues), but where does the "have to" come in?

I suspect that K meant, if both rogues and fighters draw from the Martial power, they should have equal access to each others schticks...ergo, the lines blur and they become two halves of the same class.

Not saying I agree (I don't), but I think that's what he meant.

[opera]

Should powers be the primary determinant of class powers/skills? Given the other thread on the importance of roles, it seems to me that power source is not the only thing that should define a character's/class's ability set.

Personally, I would kind of like to see a system that defines abilities using both "power source" and a "role" (i.e., what characters are actually expected to *do*), which goes back to the discussion on roles from the other thread. For example, some example roles might look like this:
-Blaster (ranged attacks)
-Hand to hand (melee attacks)
-Mobility & awareness
-Ally summons & NPC influence
-Counters/battlefield control
-Universal (object creation, knowledge, leadership, social and technical skills - stuff everyone should be able to access)

Different classes within a single power source could specialize/excel in certain roles, and these roles in combination with a power source could determine the powers to which a given class has access, for example:
-Mage (Elemental/Blaster)
-Warrior (Physical/Hand to hand)
-Death Knight (Dark/Hand to hand)
-Archer (Physical/Blaster)
-Dark wizard (Dark/Blaster)
etc.

Anyway, probably a stupid idea (you'd have to write a *lot* of powers to give people in a single class a significant level of customization, and balancing might be hard with a lot of powers), but I think that separating role specialization from power source allows the use of broad sources of power while still providing a lot of flexibility in how those powers result in unique characters and classes.