Revenge of Threads that Make Us Laugh, Cry, or Both

[Judging__Eagle]

Edit: Damn, JE. You're good.

That's a common mistake that people make. I am really no such thing.

I simply try to be good because I want it to be, and because I want it done to me in return. Often I fail to do good. Sometimes I commit downright evil and/or chaos. My instincts overriding my alturism.

I also blame too much reading for some of my ideas. Reading without real restrictions has put all sorts of information into my head. People who are devious shouldn't read about subterfuge, politics, history, religion, psychology, intrigue or anything about understanding their fellow humans.

Also, you were a bit dumb for why you got booted. Being openly hostile is... foolhardy.

Kicking the fire is good; don't jump into it.

Pissing into it or pouring water from a bucket are other options.

[Omen of Peace]

I know DS and Omen will read through all of it simply because I wrote it.

That got a smile out of me.
And that's all I'll say on the topic.

[ubernoob]

I know DS and Omen will read through all of it simply because I wrote it.

That got a smile out of me.
And that's all I'll say on the topic.

What? I've never seen you reply to me that's been off topic to the point where I know you haven't read my post. There are people who have done that (coughJaronKcough).

[Bigode]

Well, I disagree here. I think one man one vote is an incribly stupid idea. However, tiers will vary based on the houserules and playstyle each group uses and what the fundamental goals are. Basically, my tiers are very good for RAW combat, but anything outside of that are pretty useless. Also, tier systems as a whole are kind of stupid to expect other people to use.

For an example of what I mean by 'vote' look at the survey on Psychic Warrior tier.
Overwhelming majority chose Tier 3. That counts for something.

IIRC "overwhelming majority" used to think the arcane archer was the height of awesomeness until one person (called FrankTrollman) showed otherwise.

[Judging__Eagle]

Well, I disagree here. I think one man one vote is an incribly stupid idea. However, tiers will vary based on the houserules and playstyle each group uses and what the fundamental goals are. Basically, my tiers are very good for RAW combat, but anything outside of that are pretty useless. Also, tier systems as a whole are kind of stupid to expect other people to use.

For an example of what I mean by 'vote' look at the survey on Psychic Warrior tier.
Overwhelming majority chose Tier 3. That counts for something.

IIRC "overwhelming majority" used to think the arcane archer was the height of awesomeness until one person (called FrankTrollman) showed otherwise.

Say, do you know where I could find out about that? A thread title if possible or a link if you actually have it handy?

===================

Also, I'm starting a thread entitled: "What "should" a barbarian be able to do?"

Here: http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=1103687

I'd appreciate all of your input, criticism, insults, concerns and advice.

I'm actually really interested in seeing where it goes.

[Leress]

Here's the only thing I could really find about the cleric archer

http://www.gamebanshee.com/forums/dunge ... 56474.html

[Judging__Eagle]

thanks

edit:

RobHin's comments are.... ugh, close minded at best and utterly stupid at worst.

It's like he didn't even look at the build at all.

It's an elven cleric that is everything that a cleric and an elf could be.

[Koumei]

"But Clerics don't use archery! Ever!"

I also like how he implied that all Clerics are lawful. Because, you know, you don't actually get Chaotic deities.

[ubernoob]

More lulz at andyjames in the "private" forum.

Y'know, when someone has to use religion to make a point, it makes baby Jesus cry AND puke. (*hints of irony*)

He has a point. Just trust me on it. JE is a smart guy.

Allright, I'll take your word for it. :-\

Y'know, when someone has to use religion to make a point, it makes baby Jesus cry AND puke. (*hints of irony*)

One thing that he seemed to have missed is this:

- if plowing through multiple books to get a character that would turn out the same as one straight from the PHB, what is the point of plowing through all those books?
- if people are not going to plow though all those books, why would they buy them?
- if they are not going to buy them, we'd be at 7.0 by now, not 4.0. Whether you like it or not, WotC is here to make money, not create the RPG perfect system.

Plowing through multiple books SHOULD result in a better character. Not on the scale of Pun-Pun, but there SHOULD be some noticeable improvement. Call it a reward for perserverance, call it good business sense on the side of WotC, call it whatever you want, but there should be an improvement.

Trust me. He knows what he's talking about. From a game design standpoint at least. Capitalism kind of fucks up building a better game.

Trust me.

What was it you said? Oh yes:

"If you stop respecting me based on this, then I never cared about what you thought in the first place because you don't meet my minimum standards."


Oh, the irony...

You can hate someone and still understand they are better than you.

Edit: This is the same principal in use when an expert in the field tells an amateur in the field to trust him on his conclusions. He doesn't feel like wasting his time explaining because it will become self evident in time.

You can hate someone and still understand they are better than you.

Edit: This is the same principal in use when an expert ...

:lol :lol :lol :lol :lol :lol :lol :lol :lol :lol :lol :lol :lol (what I'd give for a rofl smilie)

But now, seriously... You were saying?

I'm saying I'm smarter, better read, and a better writer. So, yeah. It's an analogy. When you're comparing a creature to continental drift everything seems fast.

Really. You're an idiot. It's not that hard of a concept to understand.

[Ice9]

JaronK is saying that because Alter Self can be interpreted to grant you the "spellcasting" ability of a Sorcerer with more levels than you have hit dice through assuming the shape of a Sylph that classes who have Alter Self are vastly more powerful than other characters.

Wow. That's a ... unique ... way of interpreting the rules. Wrong, incidentally, by the same obscure Savage Species rule that makes many of Pun-Pun's powers possible.

Well, maybe there is some fail going on there. Incidentally, you might want to post some background on that thread ubernoob, because without the background from the previous thread it looks like you're ranting at nothing.

[ubernoob]

JaronK is saying that because Alter Self can be interpreted to grant you the "spellcasting" ability of a Sorcerer with more levels than you have hit dice through assuming the shape of a Sylph that classes who have Alter Self are vastly more powerful than other characters.

Wow. That's a ... unique ... way of interpreting the rules. Wrong, incidentally, by the same obscure Savage Species rule that makes many of Pun-Pun's powers possible.

Well, maybe there is some fail going on there. Incidentally, you might want to post some background on that thread ubernoob, because without the background from the previous thread it looks like you're ranting at nothing.

I posted this prior to the rest:

Good. Really, Civility isn't for pansies, and uncompromising vitriol isn't always the way to go. Let's keep the ad hominem attacks to a minimum as well. Yes, I know that uber started with an ad hominem attack on you. That was unfair of him.

----------

The "RNG" is Random Number Generation.

So, Modifiers + 1d20.

Staying "on" the RNG meants that any two creatures of the same "power" should be able to oppose each other if one rolls well and the other poorly.

If the Modifiers that one creature has are so large that an other creature of the same CR can't even beat them even on a natural 20; then one of the two creatures has fallen off of the RNG table.

Examples of RNG brokeness:

Monks unable to hit monsters due to to-low to-hit modifiers (hitting on any number higher than what you used to hit with at lower levels = falling behind on the RNG; at level 1 you tend to hit on a 10+; at level 10 you better still hit appropriate challenges on a 10+).

Golems without spot or listen versus medium level Rogues that max hide and move silently (+0 for the golem and +19 is easy ot acheive at lvl 7).

Archer Clerics versus most of their targets (if you only miss on a 1, then you're off the RNG at all).

------

Infinite Wealth:

Infinite wealth loops are broken. The only solution is that Wealth =/= Player Power. As soon as that happens, they become unbroken. They then become a "strategic" element of the game.

The fact that Genesis is broken in terms of wealth creation isn't that big of a deal. There are lower level abilities that do the same.

At one point there was a thread here discussing how much gold an Archivist or Artificer could make by casting Wall of Iron and then some "crafting spell" (I forget the name now, it was over a year ago now) to make horseshoes, plate armour, swords, arrowheads etc.. Basically the character was able to create such a large amount of decent weapons that it made more sense for such a character to 1) either A) Animate Dead and arm them with the weapon or B) Hire your local people and equip them with this new gear; and then 2) Begin going to war and conquer for more territory that you can provide cheap, well-made iron tools to; 3) Expand your now burgeouning nation.

Myself, I've got a solution in my games where looting a dragon's hoarde does not break the game world. I've even had expressions of disgust when I told the players that the Dragon's hoard had "Easily somewhere in the order of a few million gold pieces."

--------

On ubernoob/archpwr's presence here... he furiously (and some might say deludedly) desires for the people that he once associated with here to understand the revelation that came to him and experience it themselves, so that the benefits that occured for him will also occur for them.

Which is stupid. People on the WoTC boards will adopt rules that remove problems that are rampant or they will not.

There is no leading the horse to water, there is no making them drink.

There is only telling the horse that water is availiable and that you can take them there.

Just like Siddharta Guatama was able to convert some of his fellow ascetics to his "middle path" system; many of the ascetics that he knew did not convert and in fact his former compatriots began to war and fight among themselves over who was right and who was wrong.

The upshoot is that Hinduism still has a firm grasp on India. Buddhism on the other hand left and travelled around the world.


Personally, I'd rather seek an accord in terms of what goals we want as players in the 3.5 core game.

Should a barbarian at levels 1, 3, 5, 10, 13, 15 be logically charging a CR 1, 3, 5, 10, 13, 15 monster?

Should making a character be easy, or should I have to look up multiple splatbooks to make a character that slices through the CR system?

For a fail thread, that guy is fucking brilliant.

As for AndyJames being an idiot... that's a simple fact that has been proven time and time again. He actually has a 100% loss rate for debates. He's literally lost every debate he's been in the entire time I've seen him. In every case I've seen where anyone has disagreed with AndyJames he has been wrong. Every fucking case.

[Kaelik]

For some reason I can't post in the WotC thread with my account. I guess I'll just have to save them for later if/when BG opens up again.

[Tshern]

JaronK is saying that because Alter Self can be interpreted to grant you the "spellcasting" ability of a Sorcerer with more levels than you have hit dice through assuming the shape of a Sylph that classes who have Alter Self are vastly more powerful than other characters.

Wow. That's a ... unique ... way of interpreting the rules. Wrong, incidentally, by the same obscure Savage Species rule that makes many of Pun-Pun's powers possible.

Well, maybe there is some fail going on there. Incidentally, you might want to post some background on that thread ubernoob, because without the background from the previous thread it looks like you're ranting at nothing.

In his defense, he admitted he was wrong about Alter self spellcasting after he realized spellcasting is not a natural ability after MM V introduced spellcasting abilities that were explicitly listed as (Ex) ones. Polymorph on the other hand...

As for AndyJames being an idiot... that's a simple fact that has been proven time and time again. He actually has a 100% loss rate for debates. He's literally lost every debate he's been in the entire time I've seen him. In every case I've seen where anyone has disagreed with AndyJames he has been wrong. Every fucking case.

He scored a default in one thread when I simply didn't bother to talk about economics with him.

[Kaelik]

Well I'll ask you Tshern, since I can't currently post anywhere to JaronK about this.

Do you think the factotum should be balanced under the assumption that Factotums can gain the casting of other classes?

In fact, JaronK explicitly mentions getting Solar casting from Shapechange.

So does that mean his tiers are based on the assumption that any level 14 Factotum can cast 9th level cleric spells while simultaneously having Regeneration, Change Shape, Solar physical ability scores, and possibly various detection spells always active. All because they can cast Polymorph?

[Tshern]

I don't think any class should be balanced under that assumption. Saying that a specific class, be it Factotum, Rogue, Fighter or whatever, is awesome because they can use an admittedly overpowered tactics to get a powerful class feature of some other class is not valid. At least not in my opinion. If it was valid all classes would be crazily overpowered because they can use crossclass UMD.

Actually, I am fairly sure he meant Planetar, because Factotums can't get Shapechange with their class abilities, only UMD. Well, they could get it by polymorphing into a Planetar and then using a domain slot to prepare Shapechange and then turn into a Solar...

Edit: Sigh, I need to do something to my memory, I always forget to post all my thoughts at once...

Anyway, I chatted with ubernoob when he wrote his tiers and I am fairly certain one of the main things was to measure the value of any given class when they are not used to get infinity loops or other tricks that DMs generally hit with a huge banhammer of nerfing. Theoretical optimization is another topic...

[Bigode]

Even with myself having a pretty good opinion of JE (despite some recent missteps), I'm sure the retarded decision to lick his balls repeatedly isn't helping anything in a practical sense, and might be generating "lulz" at ubernoob's own expense, which I'm not sure he'd consider desirable.

[ubernoob]

Even with myself having a pretty good opinion of JE (despite some recent missteps), I'm sure the retarded decision to lick his balls repeatedly isn't helping anything in a practical sense, and might be generating "lulz" at ubernoob's own expense, which I'm not sure he'd consider desirable.

Eh, if it works then JaronK is shown that I've been right all along and that he's just been a douche. If it fails... I already didn't really care what JaronK thought of me. Hell, I indirectly told him to kill himself.

[RandomCasualty2]

Ask for Char op for lvl 1, 2, 3, 5 and lvl 10 builds.

Watch 'em squirm.

Yeah, that's because a lot of the CO people were more into penis measuring than actually making good characters. It was a contest to see who could deal the most charge damage and all that bullshit, not because you needed that much damage, but simply because the COers loved to just boil everything down to that one damage amount, so they didn't actually make real characters, they just made one trick ponies.

[ubernoob]

Ask for Char op for lvl 1, 2, 3, 5 and lvl 10 builds.

Watch 'em squirm.

Yeah, that's because a lot of the CO people were more into penis measuring than actually making good characters. It was a contest to see who could deal the most charge damage and all that bullshit, not because you needed that much damage, but simply because the COers loved to just boil everything down to that one damage amount, so they didn't actually make real characters, they just made one trick ponies.

Really, not all of them were like that. There were bad apples, but a good chunk of CO people really looked for playable and adaptable rather than pure number bullshit.

Now, I squeezed every bit of efficiency out of my builds, but that's because most of the time I'd use a very hard to accomplish task as my goal.

[ubernoob]

http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=1102873

Ugh. These people have no idea what they are talking about.

[Kaelik]

I don't think any class should be balanced under that assumption. Saying that a specific class, be it Factotum, Rogue, Fighter or whatever, is awesome because they can use an admittedly overpowered tactics to get a powerful class feature of some other class is not valid. At least not in my opinion. If it was valid all classes would be crazily overpowered because they can use crossclass UMD.

Actually, I am fairly sure he meant Planetar, because Factotums can't get Shapechange with their class abilities, only UMD. Well, they could get it by polymorphing into a Planetar and then using a domain slot to prepare Shapechange and then turn into a Solar...

Edit: Sigh, I need to do something to my memory, I always forget to post all my thoughts at once...

Anyway, I chatted with ubernoob when he wrote his tiers and I am fairly certain one of the main things was to measure the value of any given class when they are not used to get infinity loops or other tricks that DMs generally hit with a huge banhammer of nerfing. Theoretical optimization is another topic...

Well Shapechange specifically was when he was complaining that Sorcerers are better then Beguilers because they have full cleric casting. In fact, he stated that he explicitly balanced Sorcerers under the assumption they would use Shapechange to do that.

But anyone with 14 HD and 14 CL can cast Polymorph into an advanced Slyph by JaronK's standards and thus gain level 18 Sorcerer casting. Which of course means they turn around and use that to cast Shapechange into a Solar and prepare their Cleric spells.

Of course, that's retarded, but JaronK doesn't look very far past his initial assumptions.

Simililarly he is currently wanking on Iajutsui focus. Now granted, I don't personally own any 3.0 books anymore. But as I understand it he is claiming that the skill that only 5 classes where allowed to even take is now something Factotums can take (similar to the 3.0-3.5 change of UMD).

Well that's fine, but apparently amount of damage is based on your skill check, and a Rogue who wants to pump it up already has a virtual 9 ranks more then you from skill mastery (since I assume the goal is to get max damage every time) and Iajutsui focus stacks with SA.

It may be limited to bladed weapons, but I doubt it, and if it isn't, then hurlers just got even more badass.

Now a level 13 Rogue attack routine looks something like this:

+19/+19/+19/+19/+14/+14 (targeting touch) each doing 17d6+13 Acid Damage and 2 Str damage.

And things immune to him run something like this: Undead? No. Golems? No. Plants? No. People with concealment from him? People don't have concealment from him. People with Fortification Armor? Immune to SA, not Iajutsui? And definitely not Str damage. Elementals? Same as people with Fort.

So in conclusion, he does 102d6+78 damage a round. Average of 435. That's enough to kill anything CR 13. And that's the level of optimization JaronK wants for his Factotum, and then complains when it is only Tier 3 because it can't do as well as this Rogue.

As for things being immune? Only Elementals and people with Fort armor are. And they still take half damage and up to 12 Str damage a round.

Sure the Rogue needs to buy a +10 Competence bonus to Iajutsiu or something, but really, his Haversack of Iajutsiu is fair game in any game in which Iajutsiu is even allowed in the first place.

Of course, anyone in their right mind would say, no your Rogue doesn't use Iajutisu, that's for Samurais and crap. But they'd probably say the same thing to the Factotum.

Feats: In case anyone cares:

lvl 1:Quick Draw
lvl 3:PBS
lvl 6:Rapid Shot
lvl 9:Mage Slayer.
lvl 10 Bonus: STWF
lvl 12: Savvy Rogue

StrongHeart Halfling or any flaws at all gets you Pierce Magical Concealment. And if your DM doesn't allow either of those then he won't allow you to even get SA on thrown weapons.

[Tshern]

Well Shapechange specifically was when he was complaining that Sorcerers are better then Beguilers because they have full cleric casting. In fact, he stated that he explicitly balanced Sorcerers under the assumption they would use Shapechange to do that.

Then I misunderstood your post, I don't you meant Factotums could cast Shapechange. I want to ask this directly, because English is my third language and at times that makes picking up innuendos a bit difficult: Are you blaming for JaronK's claims or simply asking my opinion about them?

But anyone with 14 HD and 14 CL can cast Polymorph into an advanced Slyph by JaronK's standards and thus gain level 18 Sorcerer casting. Which of course means they turn around and use that to cast Shapechange into a Solar and prepare their Cleric spells.

According to that logic it is possible. I posted another example of doing this with multiple castings of Polymorph or any of its siblings.

Simililarly he is currently wanking on Iajutsui focus. Now granted, I don't personally own any 3.0 books anymore. But as I understand it he is claiming that the skill that only 5 classes where allowed to even take is now something Factotums can take (similar to the 3.0-3.5 change of UMD).

I would and as a matter of fact have allowed Factotums to use that skill in my game. Hardly anything game breaking, because Factotums need a lot of ability scores, so investing in charisma is quite difficult. Not sure if allowing them to use that skill was the purpose of the writers, but I have let it slide.

Well that's fine, but apparently amount of damage is based on your skill check, and a Rogue who wants to pump it up already has a virtual 9 ranks more then you from skill mastery (since I assume the goal is to get max damage every time) and Iajutsui focus stacks with SA.

Umm, yeah, I guess so. So what?

It may be limited to bladed weapons, but I doubt it, and if it isn't, then hurlers just got even more badass.

I don't think it is either, but I don't have appropriate books at hand. I own a few, but my friends own the rest of the boatload of euros we now know as D&D books.

Now a level 13 Rogue attack routine looks something like this:

+19/+19/+19/+19/+14/+14 (targeting touch) each doing 17d6+13 Acid Damage and 2 Str damage.

An acid flask throwing Rogue or am I misunderstanding the build?

And things immune to him run something like this: Undead? No. Golems? No. Plants? No. People with concealment from him? People don't have concealment from him. People with Fortification Armor? Immune to SA, not Iajutsui? And definitely not Str damage. Elementals? Same as people with Fort.

There are ways to get around various sneak attack immunities. Gravestrike is a good spell for that and, I think, the alternative class feature used for that is called Penetrating strike.

So in conclusion, he does 102d6+78 damage a round. Average of 435. That's enough to kill anything CR 13. And that's the level of optimization JaronK wants for his Factotum, and then complains when it is only Tier 3 because it can't do as well as this Rogue.

The tiers aren't about particular builds though. Not all Rogues use acid flasks.

As for things being immune? Only Elementals and people with Fort armor are. And they still take half damage and up to 12 Str damage a round.

That 200+ damage ought to take care of the immune ones too.

Sure the Rogue needs to buy a +10 Competence bonus to Iajutsiu or something, but really, his Haversack of Iajutsiu is fair game in any game in which Iajutsiu is even allowed in the first place.

Only 10k, that's not much. Masterwork tools might be useful as well, 50gp for +2 circumstance bonus. Minor, but cheap.

Of course, anyone in their right mind would say, no your Rogue doesn't use Iajutisu, that's for Samurais and crap. But they'd probably say the same thing to the Factotum.

I don't see a problem with a Rogue using Iajitsu focus. Depends on the background stories. If someone wants to invest skill ranks into this, I am willing to give them a chance to do that.

Feats: In case anyone cares:

lvl 1:Quick Draw
lvl 3:PBS
lvl 6:Rapid Shot
lvl 9:Mage Slayer.
lvl 10 Bonus: STWF
lvl 12: Savvy Rogue

What does Savvy Rogue do again? Sorry, I just can't remember.

StrongHeart Halfling or any flaws at all gets you Pierce Magical Concealment. And if your DM doesn't allow either of those then he won't allow you to even get SA on thrown weapons.

I actually have a DM who allows pretty much everything but campaign specific and Unearthed Arcana material due to our lack of access and his dislike for the concept of flaws.

Also, Pierce magical concealment requires Blind-fight, Pierce magical protection is probably the one you were after, but it requires a standard action and a melee attack.

[CatharzGodfoot]

There were bad apples...

Yeah, some of those people were pretty sick.

[Kaelik]

Then I misunderstood your post, I don't you meant Factotums could cast Shapechange. I want to ask this directly, because English is my third language and at times that makes picking up innuendos a bit difficult: Are you blaming for JaronK's claims or simply asking my opinion about them?

1) Well according to the theory that Polymorph grants casting, Factotums can cast Shapechange and that was my point.

2) I am not blaming you, only asking your opinion.

According to that logic it is possible. I posted another example of doing this with multiple castings of Polymorph or any of its siblings.

Well you have to be using Shapechange somewhere since Solars have 22 HD.

I would and as a matter of fact have allowed Factotums to use that skill in my game. Hardly anything game breaking, because Factotums need a lot of ability scores, so investing in charisma is quite difficult. Not sure if allowing them to use that skill was the purpose of the writers, but I have let it slide.

I would allow Factotums to use the skill because without it or font of inspiration spam they are largely not worth a character slot in combat at certain levels of play. But unlike JaronK I recognize that Factotums are worse then Rogues without those options, and with those options, Rogues can be optimized to be still better.

Umm, yeah, I guess so. So what?

So Iajitsu focus is not a good argument for why Factotums are better then Rogues, since Rogues can actually use the ability just as well or better.

An acid flask throwing Rogue or am I misunderstanding the build?

Well I'm sure he'll have some backup Alchemist flasks ect for Acid Immunes, but yes, that's the idea.

There are ways to get around various sneak attack immunities. Gravestrike is a good spell for that and, I think, the alternative class feature used for that is called Penetrating strike.

I am well aware of the ways around SA immunity. In fact, that is exactly what I was talking about. My standard set up is a Wand Chamber with Haste, Grave strike, Golem Strike, and Plant Strike in it.

My point is that their is not a single Non-Ooze of CR 10-15 in the MM that could survive two rounds in throwing range of this Rogue. And if Iajitsu works on everything, and you can't have immunity to it, then there is nothing at all that can survive a single round.

The tiers aren't about particular builds though. Not all Rogues use acid flasks.

And not all Factotums take Iajitsu focus and polymorph themselves into Slyphs, but JaronK believes they do. The tiers can be about classes, but as soon as JaronK claims, "A factotum that always takes the best feat and uses this specific skill from 3.0 is clearly a tier 3." He throws everything out the window.

If JaronK is willing to demonstrate a Factotum that does not take Font of Inspiration more then three times and does not use Iajitsu Focus I will demonstrate a TWFing Pounce Rogue, a Bow Rogue, and a retarded (TWFing) flanker Rogue who are all better then that Factotum.

That 200+ damage ought to take care of the immune ones too.

Only if Iajitsu works on Elementals, Oozes, and Fortification Armor, I have no idea what it does.

Only 10k, that's not much. Masterwork tools might be useful as well, 50gp for +2 circumstance bonus. Minor, but cheap.

I know it's not very expensive at all, that was my point. If 10,000gp is buying you +5d6 damage on each attack that's pretty good.

What does Savvy Rogue do again? Sorry, I just can't remember.

It adds an extra ability to all of the Rogue specials, my favorite for making a Rogue that can kill anything is the one that makes Crippiling strike damage apply to everything, even if it's immune to SA, so you can Str Damage Elementals into helplessness, or anyone with Fortification Armor.

Of course, if Iajitsu works on Elementals/undead/ect, then you don't even need it and you can just find some other feat to take.

Also, Pierce magical concealment requires Blind-fight, Pierce magical protection is probably the one you were after, but it requires a standard action and a melee attack.

No, Pierce Magical Concealment is the one I want, because it prevents them from getting concealment against me, and therefore stopping precision damage. As a side bonus, it allows you to ignore your own blinking effect if your DM refuses to admit that ranged attacks are not subject to the miss.

[Tshern]

1) Well according to the theory that Polymorph grants casting, Factotums can cast Shapechange and that was my point.

Then I have to agree with the assessment. I think Polymorph does grant spellcasting according to the rules, though I can definitely see why it would be houseruled. Spellcasting is not a supernatural ability, nor a spell-like ability and Polymorph grants extraordinary and natural ones. Doesn't really matter which one it is.

2) I am not blaming you, only asking your opinion.

That's what I was thinking too. Goody good.

Well you have to be using Shapechange somewhere since Solars have 22 HD.

Yes, at some point, but you can get access to Shapechange with using Polymorph. I was a bit unclear there.

I would allow Factotums to use the skill because without it or font of inspiration spam they are largely not worth a character slot in combat at certain levels of play. But unlike JaronK I recognize that Factotums are worse then Rogues without those options, and with those options, Rogues can be optimized to be still better.

I think Factotums really do need Font of inspiration. No class should actually be pretty much obligated to take any specific feat...

So Iajitsu focus is not a good argument for why Factotums are better then Rogues, since Rogues can actually use the ability just as well or better.

They would have less ranks without multiclassing though. Well, I am not sure if it can be acquired by a feat, so I am not saying anything for sure. However, Rogues are able to use it as well, so I agree with you.

Well I'm sure he'll have some backup Alchemist flasks ect for Acid Immunes, but yes, that's the idea.

Hehe, classic!

I am well aware of the ways around SA immunity. In fact, that is exactly what I was talking about. My standard set up is a Wand Chamber with Haste, Grave strike, Golem Strike, and Plant Strike in it.

Use magic device really is a boon for Rogues. Also, I think people often exaggerate the problem crit immune creatures impose. There majority of monsters are not immune, after all

My point is that their is not a single Non-Ooze of CR 10-15 in the MM that could survive two rounds in throwing range of this Rogue. And if Iajitsu works on everything, and you can't have immunity to it, then there is nothing at all that can survive a single round.

Aye.

And not all Factotums take Iajitsu focus and polymorph themselves into Slyphs, but JaronK believes they do. The tiers can be about classes, but as soon as JaronK claims, "A factotum that always takes the best feat and uses this specific skill from 3.0 is clearly a tier 3." He throws everything out the window.

While I agree Factotums are able to do pretty much anything, using Polymorph to do it doesn't really say much...

If JaronK is willing to demonstrate a Factotum that does not take Font of Inspiration more then three times and does not use Iajitsu Focus I will demonstrate a TWFing Pounce Rogue, a Bow Rogue, and a retarded (TWFing) flanker Rogue who are all better then that Factotum.

There was an excellent TWF Rogue floating around the WotC board some months ago. Granted, it was not full Rogue (had Swashbuckler and something else). I really like those.

Only if Iajitsu works on Elementals, Oozes, and Fortification Armor, I have no idea what it does.

Yeah, hope someone can clarify this. I can probably do that tomorrow, I need to fetch some information for the Iron Siege anyway, so I am going to visit our little library.

I know it's not very expensive at all, that was my point. If 10,000gp is buying you +5d6 damage on each attack that's pretty good.

Especially when you compare it to the sucky weapon enchantments that give +1d6 elemental damage...

It adds an extra ability to all of the Rogue specials, my favorite for making a Rogue that can kill anything is the one that makes Crippiling strike damage apply to everything, even if it's immune to SA, so you can Str Damage Elementals into helplessness, or anyone with Fortification Armor.

Ah, nice! From Complete Scoundrel?

No, Pierce Magical Concealment is the one I want, because it prevents them from getting concealment against me, and therefore stopping precision damage. As a side bonus, it allows you to ignore your own blinking effect if your DM refuses to admit that ranged attacks are not subject to the miss.

Well, if a DM allows a single flaw, two should fly as well. I just thought you were mistaken, because of the prerequisite. Thanks for the correction.