Changes to Dark Heresy

Cielingcat · Post by **Cielingcat** » Thu Dec 11, 2008 12:22 pm

Me and my friends play Dark Heresy almost exclusively at this time, and are generally satisfied with the game. However, there are some issues I have with it.

Character Creation: Homeworld

I don't like that a character's homeworld defines their statistics in the same way a character's race does in D&D, but I do like that a character can get a bonus to his statistics, especially since some classes have trouble raising certain abilities. Therefore, all homeworlds give you a base of 20 to each ability and you can simply choose to add up to 5 to one of them and subtract an equal amount from another.

Other abilities, like a Feral Worlder's "Iron Stomach" are fine, since they don't massively impact the character's ability to be of a certain archetype. I'm not sure about the Hive Worlder's +1 to initiative or the Imperial Worlder's +3 Willpower, but whatever.

Character Creation: Randomness

Everything about character creation in Dark Heresy is essentially random, which is mostly because you're supposed to roll for a character's stats first and then decide how that character got them. But I don't like that. I (and my friends) go into character creation with an idea of what we want our characters to be, and therefore all the randomness negatively impacts us.

First, there is a point buy system for ability scores. Since there are 9 abilities and the average of 2d10 is 11, you have 100 points to put in your various ability scores. But I prefer characters to have higher abilities, so everyone can have an extra 10 points. So a PC's average ability score is 32, provided you put a 12 in each (you'd have 2 left to put wherever). The maximum score is 40.

Second, Psyker's sanctioning effects can be chosen by the PC. Most of them will probably choose Witch Prickling or Hypno-indoctrination, so the benefit of those abilities are reduced to +1, from +3.

Third, a character automatically starts with 13 Wounds and 3 Fate Points. These are important to every character and being from a different world should not make you weaker.

Fourth, you still have to roll for Divinations, since you don't get to choose what your destiny is. However, instead of the mechanical bonus, you get to choose up to a total of +4 to your ability scores, or a total of +2 to Wounds and Fate Points. You can also have up to a total of 4 Insanity and Corruption Points, and may ask your GM if you can have a Minor mutation.

So you might roll a 68 and get "Men must die so that Man endures" and choose that your Divination means that you're super good at killing people, so you get +2 to Weapon Skill and Ballistic Skill. Or you can choose to be one of the people who Endures and get +4 Toughness.

More to come when I think about it.

Koumei · Post by **Koumei** » Thu Dec 11, 2008 1:17 pm

Point-buy seems fairly common. I haven't seen your other ideas here, but they do seem to be good.

One guy made up an altered Sanctioning table, where they're more or less equal in value (a little good, a little bad. And a variant where all are good, and a variant where all are bad). Possibly there's a similar thing for Divinations.

A lot of people have decided they should make up "I'm an Ork" and "I'm an Eldar" as backgrounds. I couldn't really say if these are able to be both balanced and still true to the fluff. After all, how much stronger than a guardsman is an Ork Boy? How much faster and nimbler is a Spess Elf?

They also made career paths and gear for them. There's even a Talent for Orks that lets them build crazy things. The general consensus seems to be that as soon as someone says "I think we should make Spess Merehns as regular characters" then that person gets pummelled and harmed.

Judging__Eagle · Post by **Judging__Eagle** » Thu Dec 11, 2008 2:07 pm

Koumei wrote: They also made career paths and gear for them. There's even a Talent for Orks that lets them build crazy things. The general consensus seems to be that as soon as someone says "I think we should make Spess Merehns as regular characters" then that person gets pummelled and harmed.

Hao abaot Spess Merehn Scauot?

Carapase Ahmour and a bolter, most of them are teenagers. So give them a cap on their mental abilities. Maybe not if they're a Scout Sergent, but they have the same points coming in for character creation as anyone else.

Cielingcat · Post by **Cielingcat** » Thu Dec 11, 2008 8:32 pm

Honestly I don't know what statistics Scouts would have as I've never encountered them on the tabletop or anything. Now, Orks and Eldar, those I know.

Orks are unplayable in Dark Heresy not because they're extremely powerful (though if they get big enough they can be) but because they're Orks. Dark Heresy is a game where you play the Acolytes of an Inquisitor, and Orks just don't fit that. At all. While you could play an Ork with a system using Dark Heresy-like rules, you cannot be an Ork who does investigative work for an Inquisitor. Though an Ork Detective game would be awesome and I would play it.

Eldar are interesting, in that renegade Eldar are just like humans who have latent (but generally untapped) psychic power and also are incredibly agile and fast. But, like Orks, they suffer from the problem of not fitting the setting of Dark Heresy. They could be playable though, as Eldar Rangers or other outcasts, if you could fit them somehow into the scope of Dark Heresy as an investigative horror game.

Username17 · Post by **Username17** » Thu Dec 11, 2008 8:38 pm

Scouts are totally super human and ridiculous. That they don't also have hundreds of years of training to go with their super human physiques does not make them any more acceptable in a game where the other players are expected to be humans.

-Username17

cthulhu · Post by **cthulhu** » Thu Dec 11, 2008 11:25 pm

Mechanically scouts are statistically close to space marines.

Judging__Eagle · Post by **Judging__Eagle** » Fri Dec 12, 2008 1:02 am

cthulhu wrote:Mechanically scouts are statistically close to space marines.

Last I remember, they're about the same physically as humans, just higher ballistic skill and combat skill. So, you use them to snipe with from deep inside of cover, and never for soaking shots or hand to hand. Mind you, this was a long time ago.

Regular Guard can kill scouts pretty easy; the IG have lower combat ability, but the scouts aren't that tough.

The superhuman stuff would definately put a damper on things though.

A space marine scout, could, in theory be played in a DH game, but only if PCs are above the starting package.

Probably playing a space marine neophyte who has to buy his body upgrades as he levels up, and eventually leveling up to become a scout at the same time that the Guardsmen is picking up his own special combat training abilitie.

The neophyte is going to probably be something like the guinea pig for dangerous areas the group encounters ("quick! the bridge lever is in the caustic pool and we need to have it pulled now!"). Possibly mule, or general backup for other characters. So, decent physical stats, but all of his "class abilities" are stuff like "third lung" or "weaved bone ribcage".

Would that be more reasonable? Turning Space Maring Scout, into an actual class?

I'm not sure how crazy a higher level DH character is though, so it might be ok, it might not.

cthulhu · Post by **cthulhu** » Fri Dec 12, 2008 1:18 am

They have the same strength and/or toughness as Marines.

Cielingcat · Post by **Cielingcat** » Fri Dec 12, 2008 2:38 am

Higher level DH characters get quite powerful, but the problem is that a Space Marine will always be more powerful, by virtue of Unnatural characteristics and having about the same combat talents as the best DH character. While a DH character with power armor and a power sword could possibly take out a Marine, it would take extreme luck or the circumstance of your power sword sundering the Marine's weapons (which happened in my group).

koz · Post by **koz** » Fri Dec 12, 2008 4:01 am

Judging__Eagle wrote: Last I remember, they're about the same physically as humans, just higher ballistic skill and combat skill. So, you use them to snipe with from deep inside of cover, and never for soaking shots or hand to hand. Mind you, this was a long time ago.

...

Would that be more reasonable? Turning Space Maring Scout, into an actual class?

I'm not sure how crazy a higher level DH character is though, so it might be ok, it might not.

The thing is, the very process of becoming a marine renders you superhuman. If we use Inquisitor granularity for comparing marines to ordinary people, we're looking at ridiculousness no matter how far along you are.

Inquisitor average human: 20-30 Str
Inquisitor average marine: ~200 Str

Even if they had HALF of this, which I am pretty sure even neophytes who are allowed out of the fortress-monasteries for any reason would be, they are still so superhuman it is ridonculous.

Cielingcat · Post by **Cielingcat** » Fri Dec 12, 2008 4:04 am

The Dark Heresy scale is significantly less drastic; human average strength is 30 (and some heroes have as much as 50 or so) while Space Marines generally have 45 to 55 and then double that from Unnatural Strength x2.

Elennsar · Post by **Elennsar** » Fri Dec 12, 2008 4:16 am

That still works out as "Marines don't need humans even as cannon fodder.", statwise.

The phrase "First and without equals." comes to mind.

By the way, nice modifications to the rules, CielingCat.

The one thing I'm not sure I like about it (so am curious how it works in your experience)...

Hivebound is a bit too severe a trait on its own. I'm not sure if the other bonuses can compensate or not, but it has struck me as excessive.

CatharzGodfoot · Post by **CatharzGodfoot** » Fri Dec 12, 2008 7:56 am

Koumei wrote:Spess

Why is it "Spess"?

Koumei · Post by **Koumei** » Fri Dec 12, 2008 9:01 am

The SM hero in Dawn of War can't speak properly. So in his speeches, the loyal Spess Mehrens serve the Emprah! Note that I have not heard it (so I can't confirm "It's an accent" (looks like it could be Scottish) or "He speaks like an idiot").

It quickly became a meme. He even featured in a short story about DoW heroes appearing in an asylum for their troubles, including the Chaos hero with his hatred of metal boxes (transport vehicles), the SoB with her "setting people on fire" fixation and Vance Motherfucking Stubbs for, well... it's Vance Motherfucking Stubbs.

There's also a song describing the drop pod tactics, called "Steel Rehn", to be sung in his voice. Think "Chocolate Rain".

Anyway, SMs just don't work at all in the same system, alongside other PCs. When used as foes they can be really deadly. I mean, your Space Marine Captain is twice as strong and tough as your 200 year old IG Commander, although their skill levels are pretty much the same, so at that top tier, there isn't too much of a difference, except that the SM is more likely to break the IG in half. Likewise he'll do the same to the Canoness, except she can use Faith to break the rules and might win (this would explain the various canon situations where a skilled SoB kills a group of Marines - equal training, and Faith seriously gives a bigger edge than being a mutant killing machine).

And that's okay, because although they are easy to recognise, Space Marines aren't essential for it to be 40K.

On that note, having looked over the career paths and all, it does seem as though, barring Psykers (especially with crazy mutations and sanctioning effects), Tech-priests and faith-abusing Sororitas, a lot of parties could be formed and it could run the risk of not seeming like GrimDark:

In melee, it is going to be a very long time before a chainsword enters play, let alone a power sword. I sort of feel that the inclusion of chainswords is one of the big signs. While people use flails and brass knuckles, it could just be any fantasy world.

In ranged combat, most people start with autoguns, muskets and shotguns, perhaps with a lasgun or laspistol. If it's all las-weapons, it could be any sci-fi thing, if it's no las-weapons, then it's a strange modern world. Mixing them will give the 40K feeling, but still leave people wondering "Where are the bolters?"

Add to that the fact that you're explicitly hunting down heretical humans, it looks like it could take a lot to actually make it feel like 40K at the starting power level, which is why it is so important to make the world seem GRIM AND DARK. Games that start at higher rank (with appropriate cash) probably wouldn't suffer from this. By then, one guy has probably sprouted soul-eating mushrooms on his spine and has to breathe through a pipe organ, while everyone totes flamers, bolters, chainswords and plasma weapons. By this stage they're also hunting daemon cults, so they actually see warp creatures an Chaos symbols.

Have you found this to be accurate, Ceilingcat? Would you say I'm close to the mark? I haven't had the chance to play it yet, although I'm in a game that is starting soon (at rank 3).

Cielingcat · Post by **Cielingcat** » Fri Dec 12, 2008 12:34 pm

Before you get to the iconic 40k equipment, making it seem like 40k is entirely up to the players and GM's ability to roleplay the setting. Because frankly, 40k just doesn't deal with low level flunkies who can't even afford boltguns yet-while they're part of the setting, they aren't really represented in the game.

And even in the Ordo Xenos, you're not going to be hunting down Eldar or Orks (though they do exist). The gravest threat to the Calixis sector (at least as far as the Ordo Xenos is concerned) are the Slaughth, and they were invented specifically for Dark Heresy, so far as I know.

So the whole thing depends on basically how often you make references to the Emperor, how many times you tell the guy you're interrogating "we're with the fucking Inquisition", and, of course, how quickly you get bolters. Though having a Psyker who likes to invoke Perils of the Warp makes it decidedly more 40k.

Judging__Eagle · Post by **Judging__Eagle** » Fri Dec 12, 2008 4:20 pm

Well, I'm not adamant on having marines in any way, shape or form in-game. It's just that it's a possibility and I wanted to see if it could be an option.

I'd probably nerf the hell out of a marine to reflect the fact that in the tabletop game, they're not all that strong; armoured as all hell, and packing rapid-fire mortars, but not something with a S stat that can gib a guardsmen

Marines are WS 4, S 4, T 4 last I recall
Guard are...WS 3? S 3 4 3; not sure, but that seems right; I'm pretty sure that Orks have BS 2/WS 3 or 4 and guard have one more BS with BS/WS 3.

So, WS 4 vs 3 is a 3+ to hit; 66.66% chance per attack.
To kill, S 4 vs T 3? That's 3+ to kill; that's only a 66.66% chance to kill in every round that they connect (an other 66.66%).

Meaning a 44.4% chance of killing a guardsmen per attack.

I'm betting that the Inq and DH games are more based on the fluff, where 1 Mehrenn = 100 human troops.

The table top tends to rate SM somewhere between 3-4 guardsmen. Which would be a good place to start a marine in a game with more granularity, non SM starting at a higher level of course.

Also, bolters aren't "typical" 40k; chainswords are, but Bolters are pretty much a marine weapon. Seeing lasguns is definately a sign of 40k, or purity seals, Servo-Skulls, cathedrals with gun batteries.

Calling a gun a Stubber, seeing flamers or las-pistols also work.

That's mostly b/c I associate Necromunda with 40k as much as I associate Spess Mehrenns with the same setting.

Also, the SM commanders in the first 3 previous Dawn of War games never had a speech impediment. The first two were an old man, the next one was a young guy, the 4th game had, a retard, or something. So I never actually got that joke until talking to someone who owned Dawn of War: Soulstorm. I actually thought the joke was making fun of SM fans that are sometimes to be spazzes.

Finally, 40k does represent low level flunkies. It's mostly that people never really liked other people flooding the table with 40-100 Chaos Cultists while the real CSM are in the back firing away with impunity, or most SOB players really didn't like to use Ecclesiasty flunkies as cannon fodder.

However, people still can use Fodder. Tyranids use termegaunts with genestealers in the back. While CSM can get Traitor Guard, which will probably be used as cannon fodder.

Fodder is a great tactic in the 40k tabletop game, since you can spend as much on one or two massive squads of crap as you would on a whole squad, and suddenly the enemy now has to mow down an additional 40 targets before they can start shooting your real guys, but it is really annoying to have to face. Unless you've got lots of blast radius weapons. Or tanks to mow them down. The tanks is not a bad idea, a couple of rhinos or a chimera will set you back 100-140-ish points, but they'll guarantee that you crush 12"x3" worth of enemies, and maybe scatter the rest.

In any case, the rules have tended to shy away from fodder options. Right now, only IG and Tyranids are the two armies closest to being able to field lots of cannon fodder due to cheap points cost troops that are part of an expected battle lineup.

Cielingcat · Post by **Cielingcat** » Fri Dec 12, 2008 7:25 pm

On Eldar as Inquisitorial agents again. There is now documented evidence of an Inquisitorial faction that aids and abets Xenos; the faction known as the Xenos Hybris is detailed in Disciples of the Dark Gods Page 181, and Inquisitor Arcturos, Ordo Xenos, is rumored to use a number of xenos as acolytes, including an Eldar.

Koumei · Post by **Koumei** » Wed Dec 17, 2008 8:18 am

So, Disciples of the Dark Gods: does it have anything for players, or is it basically a book of enemies for the GM to use? If it has plenty of equipment, talents and whatever, I might pick it up, but if it's just enemies, well, I don't run DH so it'd be more of a spoiler than any use.

Cielingcat · Post by **Cielingcat** » Thu Dec 18, 2008 12:00 am

It's got some talents, but is mostly a GM's book.