The Gaming Den

I'm looking for some ideas to either streamline or make a minigame for combat involving 50 or more competent warriors (by warriors, I simply mean "people who fight", not a specific combat archetype. ) I'm running a very heavily modified D&D game, but the number of combatants involved in most battles leads to me handwaving all the mechanics and simply playing Tactical Teaparty.

First, some information on the setting. It's a thousand years since the goblinoid empire that is essentially a slightly nicer version of the Roman Empire fell to barbarian hordes. A number of stable city-states have arisen, most of which were originally founded by imperial citizens and soldiers that banded together and defended their territory well enough to make enemies look for softer targets. The entire continent is perpetually covered in storm clouds, and clear sky is a rare and celebrated event. The default weather is light rain.

Now, a few bullet points:

- This is a heroic setting. By this, I mean that people often make sacrifices for the greater good. "People" can include the PCs. Since most PCs are part of a band of 30 or so people, dead PCs can be relatively quickly replaced and players often control multiple characters at the same time.

- This is a gritty setting. By this, I mean that dealing with annoying weather, maintenance of equipment, and washed-out or muddy roads should take a fair amount of game time. We're playing Logistics & Dragons more than Dungeons & Dragons.

- This is a dark setting. By this, I mean that a lot of people remember that life was a lot better when the empire was whole and they didn't have to regularly fight to protect their homes and territory. It's also almost perpetually raining, so there's much dimmer sunlight. Pretty horrible stuff can happen, particularly if you find a portal to the Dark World, where everything is a twisted and distorted version of its equivalent in the normal world.

- I tried to come up with an excuse to call this a grim setting, but it's actually pretty idealistic and focused on the idea that you can negotiate with many potential antagonists and achieve much better results than you'd see if you just fought or avoided them.


Key mechanical changes:

Levels are capped at 10, and most people are level 4 minimum. Adventurers are generally between levels 6-8. Generic townsfolk often have at least one level in a PC class.

If you pick a deity and regularly pray to it, it will give you a pile of at-will SLAs and a few supernatural abilities based on your level. Children who worship the fire god can cast Produce Flame at will. Adventurers can cast Burning Hands, Produce Flame, Fire Ward (gives somebody Fire resistance equal to character level for minutes) Flaming Weapon, and Summon Fire Elemental (lets you summon a fire elemental and control it with move actions. If uncontrolled, it stands around and doesn't do anything.) at will. They are also highly resistant to fire and can see plot-driven visions if they look into fires for long enough. Awesome adventures get even better stuff.

Please a deity, and it will give you temporary access to a sphere. This can be achieved by giving valuable and unique offerings at a shrine. (By the way, there are 6 deities and numerous Dark World demideities (hereafter referred to as Endarkened Lords). The deities can grant spheres and give better SLAs, but Endarkened Lords can act more directly and have many extraplanar minions willing to ally with cultists)

Some skills and feats can be bought via paying money to trainers. Using a skill untrained a few times will generally give you free ranks in it, but you can't train a skill to higher than the cross-class maximum without spending skill points from leveling up.

You can learn to cast spells by spending feats. Characters can spend a feat to know all the level-appropriate maneuvers from a martial school.

Elementalist classes are devoted to one of the four elemental gods and have very powerful at-will abilities. The Pyromancer is a modified Fire Mage, for example.

Teleportation and planeshifting are weaker. The only well-known planes are the Material Plane and the Dark World. Teleportation can't take you into warded areas or between continents. Wards are easy to set up.

Firearms exist, but gunpowder is weaker than in the real world. Bullets have difficulty penetrating heavy armor and shields, so many people stick with weapons that don't get ruined by the constant rain (most people use bronze instead of iron or steel, so I actually give bonuses to steel equipment, but steel rusts in a matter of days if not taken care of). Dwarves in underground fortresses are known for their fondness of semiautomatic hand cannons and repeating rifles. Automatic weaponry is high maintenance and generally ineffective against people with tower shields.
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

Alright, now for what I'm trying to create. I need a simple way of running mass combat in battles involving... say 50-500 people. These people could be traditional mage-types, generic soldiers, fancy soldiers with wacky martial arts powers, people with unlimited piles of predefined magical effects to toss out, or any combination of the above.

I'm thinking something squad-based. If I combine people into units, there'll be far fewer things to keep track of. Different types of unit will have different sizes of squad, but I could easily reduce a 40-person warband into 8 or less units. I won't bother tracking initiatives. Generally, there'll be 3 or less sides in each battle, so I'll just have sides take turns moving all their units in each round. I'd like to place

I'd be happy to use or modify an existing system. If there's a cheap wargame or customizable computer I could get used, that could make a nice starting point. Otherwise, I'd like to try for something reminiscent of a tactical RPG. Counter-attacks when you get hit if you aren't hit from behind or out of range, emphasis on maneuvering and gaining tactical advantages, and different types of terrain and elevation having a significant effect on combat advantage and maneuverability.

I note that there's a fair amount of overlap between this and the Arturius remake ( http://www.tgdmb.com/viewtopic.php?t=49440 ). That may be a good place for me to start stealing ideas.

Or we can work together and share them. In fact, having both done in tandem would probably be good, as we can use similar skeletons.

I suggest you use the_taken's system, and simply add numbers into it. Heroes have a stat called Willpower that basically lets them toss extra dice into a roll to push it forward harder, with a per-battle pool.

Gritdark?

Will each player have a 'leader' or 'face of the party' for their personal pool of heroes, or is it pretty much a socialist getup?
Communism... in a world of chaos.... that's pretty grimdark.

Having multiple people also means insurance against permdeath later on.
Splash in a Healer of some kind, or few, and you can replenish your PC Pool in downtime.
... if it wasn't grimdark. I know all about how that works.
You die and stay dead because otherwise your death is cheap and trivial and optimistic.

Mister_Sinister wrote: I suggest you use the_taken's system, and simply add numbers into it. Heroes have a stat called Willpower that basically lets them toss extra dice into a roll to push it forward harder, with a per-battle pool.

I was thinking about the_taken's Willpower stat and I was wondering if we should break it away from the general ability pool? As it's going to be the stat that lets you add dice to units in mass combat, should it be a function of level instead? Do we want people to have to trade points in personal badassery to get more of it?

The reason I ask is because it seems like we're intending this game to rely less on the personal awesome of the hero in mass combat than on their ability to lead troops well. We also intend for people to play individual heroes and move around like an adventuring party, stabbing fools and rescuing hostages. I don't think we should let people become worse at one aspect of the game in order to be come better at the other.

Further thinking, maybe we should have three stats for unit leadership as well? We've got Willpower that can be used to add dice to things currently. Maybe we could have a stat that allows unit regeneration (explained as reserves or reinforcements or something) or one that lets you immediately shift a unit somewhere else? So, maybe something like a trio of Willpower, Planning, and Cunning?

This way, heroes have their points for the individual scale, and they have a separate pool for the unit scale. What do you think?

violence in the media wrote: I was thinking about the_taken's Willpower stat and I was wondering if we should break it away from the general ability pool? As it's going to be the stat that lets you add dice to units in mass combat, should it be a function of level instead? Do we want people to have to trade points in personal badassery to get more of it?

The reason I ask is because it seems like we're intending this game to rely less on the personal awesome of the hero in mass combat than on their ability to lead troops well. We also intend for people to play individual heroes and move around like an adventuring party, stabbing fools and rescuing hostages. I don't think we should let people become worse at one aspect of the game in order to be come better at the other.

Further thinking, maybe we should have three stats for unit leadership as well? We've got Willpower that can be used to add dice to things currently. Maybe we could have a stat that allows unit regeneration (explained as reserves or reinforcements or something) or one that lets you immediately shift a unit somewhere else? So, maybe something like a trio of Willpower, Planning, and Cunning?

This way, heroes have their points for the individual scale, and they have a separate pool for the unit scale. What do you think?

I think you should design more of this stuff, because so far, I'm impressed.

Here are the general roles filled by the goblinoid races:

Goblins are educated citizens, but are constantly reminded that they are a race of disposable mooks. They live a third as long as hobgoblins, reproduce five times as fast, and can eat rotting meat without significant health problems. Even though they are recognized as being just as intelligent as intelligent as hobgoblins, they are explicitly discriminated against when it comes to quality of life. Since they can take harsher living conditions, they are often given them, and society still expects them to be willing to risk their lives defending the other races. Most city-states honor goblins for making such sacrifices, and goblins are often referred to as the most heroic of the goblinoid races.

Hobgoblins generally act as leaders, skilled workers, and professional soldiers. Whereas goblins do all the jobs that require relatively little training, hobgoblins tend to specialize. They aren't smarter than other goblinoids, but they are naturally inclined to discipline and are usually willing to dedicate significant portions of their lives refining their skills. Hobgoblins are very fond of writing, and most keep personal journals detailing their thoughts and ideas. They love to coordinate the efforts of others, and most large group of goblins have at least one hobgoblin acting in a supervisory role.

Bugbears are enormously physically powerful. They can live for hundreds of years if they take care of themselves, and their sense of smell is keen enough for them to detect other creatures without the benefit of sight or hearing. The average bugbear can take several ballista bolts to the torso and keep acting, and fully trained bugbear knights have been known to fight off entire warbands of gnoll barbarians with only grievous injuries. Oddly, most bugbears prefer to live their lives following other people's orders. Bubears gravitate towards positions as elite warriors or subcommanders in various organizations. They avoid big decisions, deferring to people higher up the chain of command, but happily enforce their edicts. In their downtime, bugbears are somewhat unpredictable, as they act more intuitively than analytically.

I should note that there are broad exceptions both for individuals and for the social structures of some city-states, but these descriptions do apply on average.

Template:

Name - Type
Wounds:
Movement:
Attack:
Special Attack 1:
Special Attack 2:
Special Action:
Soak:
Resistance:
Willpower:

- - - - - -

Goblin Militia - Infantry
Wounds: 3
Movement: 5''
Attack: 2d6
Special Attack 1: 1d6 15''
Soak: 1d6
Resistance: 1d6

Hobgoblin Swordfighters - Infantry
Wounds: 6
Movement: 6''
Attack: 3d6
Special Attack 1: Heal 2 wounds on yourself or a unit within 3''. Once per engagement.
Special Action: If you don't move during your movement phase, gain +1d6 to Soak and +3d6 to Resistance from locked shields until the next movement phase.
Soak: 3d6
Resistance: 1d6

Hobgoblin Archers - Infantry
Wounds: 5
Movement: 6''
Attack: 2d6
Special Attack 1: 1d6 32''
Special Attack 2: 2d6 40", pick either Fire, Lightning, Cold, or Acid damage. 3 shots per engagement.
Special Action: Spells of agility allow you to halve the penalties from rough terrain.
Soak: 2d6
Resistance: 1d6

Bugbear Knight - Hero
Wounds: 20
Movement: 6''
Attack: 5d6
Special Attack 1: 4d6 physical to all units within 10'' including friendlies. 2 automatic wounds to self. Resistance instead of Soak to defend.
Special Attack 2: Apply the same Willpower bonus to all friendly units within 20''.
Soak: 4d6
Resistance: 4d6
Willpower: 2d6

sigma999 wrote:Gritdark?

Will each player have a 'leader' or 'face of the party' for their personal pool of heroes, or is it pretty much a socialist getup?
Communism... in a world of chaos.... that's pretty grimdark.

Generally, you always control a main character, and you also exert control over allies and minions as long as they have reason to follow your main character's orders/suggestions. Many allies are just as skilled as you, and if you lose your main, you can either bring in a new one different than your old character or turn one of your equally skilled allies into a main.

You may or may not play a leading character. It depends on what kind of warband you're in, what sort of game you're playing in, and what choices you took in and after character creation. If you are part of a city-state's military, you probably have a commanding officer. If the city-state uses a military much like the old empire, the leader will be tactically or diplomatically gifted but subpar when it comes to personally engaging in combat.

The average barbarian warband defers command to whoever is clearly the best fighter. If no obvious leader exists or the warband tires of the one it already has, things go by mob rule.

Freelancers and mercenaries vary considerably in their leadership structure, and are also the most common player-controlled warbands. I'll give an example of one being played right now in my next post.

- - -

sigma999 wrote:Having multiple people also means insurance against permdeath later on.
Splash in a Healer of some kind, or few, and you can replenish your PC Pool in downtime.
... if it wasn't grimdark. I know all about how that works.
You die and stay dead because otherwise your death is cheap and trivial and optimistic.

Combat and after-combat healing both exist and are fairly advanced. In a world where an average civilian can pick up the basics of magic and/or science in a public library, getting your hands on some healing potions or enchanted bandages is nowhere near as tricky as one might expect.

Various forms of resurrection and revivification exist, but most of them are quite resource-intensive. Only the most powerful clerics are capable of casting Raise Dead, and these individuals frequently do other things with their power. The best chance an adventurer has of coming back from the dead is an alternative such as restorative surgery combined with magical prosthetics.

If you're really keen on having your PC back without turning him into a wraith bound to a suit of armor or having a Dark World technician insert a bunch of soul recovery crystals into his spine and make him look like a magitek Borg, you can always have the warband try and find a vaguely sympathetic dragon and ask it to use its magic to help. That poses a number of problems, but it also has the least amount of baggage if it works.

An example of a mercenary / freelancer warband:

The Shields of Twilight are a band of freelancer soldiers formed by a group of adventurers from the town of Saltmarsh. When a large army of gnoll fire-cultists invaded Mali-Yawara (a recently established city-state) from the west looking for loot and fresh sacrifices, a number of individuals decided to assist the army in the defense. The adventurers took a mission to locate an ambush point where the regular army could wear down the invaders, but abandoned it partway through to go and support the army more directly. Eventually, they had recruited enough warriors to help them that running things democratically became too time-consuming, and they set up a crude command structure.

The Shields of Twilight are grouped into four units, each commanded by a captain. Above these are two co-commanders. They also have a few auxiliary units that feel disinclined to attach themselves to an existing band. Captains are picked by group consensus based on who seems both tactically competent and reasonably likable. They command their subordinates in battle, but have little say in how they conduct themselves otherwise. Captains do generally get a fair amount of respect from the other warriors based on their willingness to deal with the warband's paperwork and other unpleasant desk jobs. To become a Captain, you have to have been with the group for a least a month.

The first unit is a mixed group of bugbear and orc militia supplemented by dwarven gunners. Though they have little formal training, they have fought multiple engagements and faired reasonably well. Generally, the bugbears fight up close and soak up enemy attacks, while the dwarves unleash volleys of missile fire into the melee and the orcs repel those who attack the gunners. They are led by Hagar an orc druid infamous for his belief that the Empire survived the invasion and it intends to return to slaughter everyone, regardless of the fact that practically all the city-states still consider themselves part of the Empire. He has been with the group from the beginning, and seems to have some talent with tactics and diplomacy despite his off-putting eccentricity.

The second unit is a group of paladins devoted to Astarn (The sun god. His divine portfolio includes law, nobility, war, and similar subjects.) and the ideals of the old empire. Their leader, Hatatho, refuses to disclose where they came from, but he claims that they are members of a militant order that survived the barbarian invasion due to their obscure location and strong leadership. They are ostensibly here to strengthen relations and prevent any further erosion of civilization. As paladins, they have limited healing magic and are decent heavy infantry. Astarn also grants them the ability to fire destructive blasts of focused sunlight, which are quite effective against beings from the Dark World. Recently

The third unit serves as light infantry focused on swarm tactics and outmaneuvering foes. Dwarven combat engineers help control the battlefield while the goblin warriors look for an opening that will allow effective assault with minimal casualties. A pair of bugbears bolster their ranks and help the goblins deal with harder targets. This unit serves Raklen, a pyromancer from the regular officer. Officially, he is merely present as an advisor, but his competence, magical power, and willingness to do paperwork swiftly brought him authority as both a captain and co-commander of the warband.

The fourth unit is the newest and most untested. Fargnb, the group's captain, started as one of a few tavern toughs recruited by Hagar with promises of easy fights, good plunder, and an adventure that would awe the townies back at home. He was one of the small number that survived the first few fights. Fargnb has become a talented archer and established fast friendships with a number of his fellows. When a new captain was needed for the fourth unit, he volunteered and was unanimously confirmed for the position. Unit four provides ranged support and scouting. Mostly composed of hobgoblin archers, it is supplemented by a few goblin runners and dwarven combat engineers.

A few individuals are not part of a unit. Klamartavask, a powerful priest of Ianna (The moon goddess. Her divine portfolio includes chaos, creativity, insanity, scientific progress, and similar subjects.), is shifted between units as they need them. A crystal mage (modified psion) cultist of the All-Seeing One (Endarkened lord. Wants to see everything and know of hidden things. "god" of beholders.) serves a similar role. Rezrex, one of the two co-commanders, focuses on negotiation and strategy and has little time for combat, so he has no direct combat role and no special involvement with any particular unit.

Wrote this up in a few spare moments. An arcane hero of around level 6.

Adventuring Wizard - Hero
Wounds: 10
Movement: 6
Attack: 2d6
Soak: 1d6
Special Attack 1 (Fire Blast): 4d6 Range 18. Fire Damage. 4 times per engagement.
Special Attack 2 (Sonic Push): 2d6 Range 12. Pushes target 6 increments away, but 2 Resistance hits negates the push. 4 times per engagement.
Special Attack 3 (Mystic Aegis): Give yourself or a unit within Range 8 +3d6 to Soak and Resistance for 3 rounds. 2 times per engagement.
Special Attack 4 (Offensive Illusion): All targets within a 6 by 6 square must make 2 resistance hits or be unable to act next round. 2 times per engagement.
Special Action/Ability (Levitation): The unit may move vertically, but it cannot move horizontally unless it is touching the ground. If it is not touching the ground, it falls after 3 rounds. This movement off the ground may be done 3 times per engagement.
Special Action/Ability (Defensive Illusion): When it would otherwise be damaged, the unit may use unspent Willpower to negate hits as though each point of Willpower spent was 2d6 Soak dice. Willpower spent in this manner does not come back until the beginning of the Special Phase in the next round.
Resistance: 4d6
Willpower: 4.

Any reason you roll for both damage and soak? Not that there's anything wrong with it, I'm just curious.

This looks pretty good; I like it. What's the difference between Resistance and Soak?

Bill Bisco: Isometric Imp wrote:This looks pretty good; I like it. What's the difference between Resistance and Soak?

Soak is for damage and Resistance is for effects that say "two Resistance hits to negate."

All attacks need at least one auto hit. otherwise this is going to take forever to kill one guy who just uses willpower for the soak roll.

The average bugbear can take several ballista bolts to the torso and keep acting,

lol what?

Taking one ballista bolt to the torso should reduce any mook to gibs. What is the deal?

CatharzGodfoot wrote:Any reason you roll for both damage and soak? Not that there's anything wrong with it, I'm just curious.

I want the controllers of the attacker and defender both to have an excuse to roll dice. That should help keep people interested when it isn't their turn.

Bill Bisco: Isometric Imp wrote: This looks pretty good; I like it. What's the difference between Resistance and Soak?

Restating what Akula said, you use Soak to reduce damage and Resistance to negate status effects.

Akula wrote:All attacks need at least one auto hit. otherwise this is going to take forever to kill one guy who just uses willpower for the soak roll.

I agree to an extent. The weakest units shouldn't be guaranteed of damage, but most units should. I'll modify my unit lineup before posting the goblins and updated wizard.

Lago PARANOIA wrote:lol what?

Taking one ballista bolt to the torso should reduce any mook to gibs. What is the deal?

Bugbears aren't mooks in this setting. They are ridiculously tough and make natural warriors. Their practical and theoretical combat abilities are both better than normal.

I'll back up the bugbear statement mechanically. Avoraciopoctules decided that people are limited to ten levels, HD don't count though. Bugbears have also been gifted with a negative LA so they can be played at first level. So at any given level the bugbear has a small HP advantage and has a higher theoretical limit on power.

<offtopic>

I would be interested in seeing your rules/guidelines/list of powers for the SLA/spheres that deities grant, with permission to cram it down my own player's throats.

</offtopic>

Aktariel wrote:<offtopic>

I would be interested in seeing your rules/guidelines/list of powers for the SLA/spheres that deities grant, with permission to cram it down my own player's throats.

</offtopic>

Sure. I'm currently going with two systems. The first is the SLA set. I go by something like this:

Level 1: Something moderately useful, but of little power in combat compared to many other options. Examples include Light, Magic Weapon/Tool (gives enhancement bonuses to things like anvils or looms), Create Water, Jump. and Produce Flame.

Level 2: A passive ability of moderate usefulness. Examples include Water Breathing, Fast Healing 1/minute, and Fire Resistance 5.

Level 3: A spell that directly helps someone in day-to-day life. Eschew Food and Drink (personal), Telekinesis (sustained force only), Gust of Wind (power windmills or sailing ships), Cure Light Wounds.

Level 4: Something most people would really appreciate having. Locate Object, Stone Tell, Gentle Repose, Clairaudience/Clairvoyance, Telepathic Bond.

Level 6:The PCs are at "Adventurer/Elite" level. A class which gets spheres could have one of them at will. They get something fairly powerful. Transmute Rock to Mud, Fireball (For its ability to set multiple buildings on fire, provide suppressing "fire" to pin down enemies who would otherwise advance towards you, and indirectly hit enemies in cover by being lobbed over walls or through firing ports.), Telekinesis (All options now enabled),
Glitterdust, Minor Image.

Level 8: A quite powerful combat spell or one that could be heavily exploited if at-will. Alternatively, a powerful passive ability. At this point, the PCs are as powerful as they could reasonably expect to get. Major Image, Sunburst, Insect Plague.

Level 10: Something awesome that doesn't throw us into the Wish economy. Since Wish doesn't exist in this setting (There are genies, but they can't be summoned and don't have Wish anyways), that shouldn't be too hard. Unlimited character wealth via crafting is fine, but it shouldn't spill over to the rest of the world too much.

Alternatively, players have the option of picking a nerfed (reduced damage) version of the spherelock or something similar as their class.