Question Regarding Illusions - Disbelief & Doomtide

[Rathe]

Hello all, I have a quick question regarding illusion spells and more specifically the spell Doomtide from the Spell Compendium. We were fighting a number of Ogres in a constrained space (about 10-11 of them in a room) and I cast Doomtide through an arrow slit before we entered. Now the spell took about 8 of the ogres out of commission, but 2 or 3 made their saves versus the spell.

Here's the question, the spell Doomtide is an Illusion(pattern), Will Save Negates and a repeating daze effect acting each round. As the spell was an illusion when they made the save did they therefore disbelieve the illusion, or merely make the save versus the daze effect? If they merely made the save versus the daze effect, do they then get a save to disbelieve because they "think something is amiss", or do they "have to spend a few rounds poking at it"?

Hope someone with more illusion experience can help explain this. (Next time I'll just use greater command and tell them all to flee...less GM arbitration that way.)

Thank you,
Rathe

[Username17]

Patterns are not disbelieved, only figments and glamers are. Making the save against a pattern does just what the spell says it does and no more.

-Username17

[Rathe]

That's awesome Frank, even better than I'd hoped.

Just one quick question though (and I must apologize for seeming a dullard), but what gives them the inability to be disbelieved? Is it because they are considered to be mind-affecting spells much like phantasms and thereby becomes something like a Compulsion?

[Username17]

That's awesome Frank, even better than I'd hoped.

Just one quick question though (and I must apologize for seeming a dullard), but what gives them the inability to be disbelieved? Is it because they are considered to be mind-affecting spells much like phantasms and thereby becomes something like a Compulsion?

No, it's because "disbelief" is a function of being a Figment or Glamer. Nothing more. Nothing other than those can be disbelieved unless it says that it can be.

A pattern is an image in the world that causes some reaction in people who observe it or are "within it." From a structural standpoint, it's just like flashing lights at someone. It's not "real" and it doesn't look real. But it still makes it hard to see.

-Username17

[Amra]

Are you sure about that Frank? The only bit I can find is:

Saving Throws and Illusions (Disbelief)
Creatures encountering an illusion usually do not receive saving throws to recognize it as illusory until they study it carefully or interact with it in some fashion.

A successful saving throw against an illusion reveals it to be false, but a figment or phantasm remains as a translucent outline.

A failed saving throw indicates that a character fails to notice something is amiss. A character faced with proof that an illusion isn’t real needs no saving throw. If any viewer successfully disbelieves an illusion and communicates this fact to others, each such viewer gains a saving throw with a +4 bonus.

Mind you, I'm aware that the SRD doesn't agree in all cases with the core books; I've been caught out that way before.

The Doomtide spell description is buggered to a fare-thee-well in any case... An illusion that can be dispersed by a strong wind? WTF? I understand that with conjured mist effects, but an illusion? Puh-lease.

[Rathe]

Thank you again Frank, I didn't realize the ramifications of the line regarding reality of other illusion types in the Figment description text block.

I really wish WOTC was a little better at writing down key information where it would be more readily apparent...sort of like under the individual section or even in the general disbelief section.

Now to walk my GM and group through those passages.

[Kaelik]

Yeah, Frank covered this well, but I want to yell about it.

Illusion =/= disbelief.

Illusion just means, in D&D world. That your objects are made of photons or anti-photons instead of big old matter chunks.

If you recognize something as not being real, sometimes you can run through it.

Anti-photons are dense though, so maybe not when it's made of them (shadow stuff).

But it really doesn't matter if you don't believe the Color Spray is a real object of matter. It's still a real object of photons that really will induce epilepsy. The Will save means you manage to not have a seizure, not that you recognize it as photons.

EDIT: Amra, that only applies to Illusions with the (Disbelief) suptype. Patterns don't have that. Only Figments and Glamors.

[Username17]

Oh, it's gobbledygook. Since of course you can't study a phantasm because it doesn't even take up space. How can a nameless feeling of dread become a translucent outline?

The Figments give a general rule for allowing people to disbelieve by poking them, and they have a statement in them that says that this applies to Glamers too. Anything else gives a Will Disbelief only if the spell says it does - as is the case for say Shadow Evocation (although what if anything is meant by a 40% effectiveness of infinite resilience from a shadow wall of force is at best unclear). Things which aren't Figments or Glamers and don't say that they can be disbelieved can't be.

-Username17

[Kaelik]

Oh, it's gobbledygook. Since of course you can't study a phantasm because it doesn't even take up space. How can a nameless feeling of dread become a translucent outline?

The Figments give a general rule for allowing people to disbelieve by poking them, and they have a statement in them that says that this applies to Glamers too. Anything else gives a Will Disbelief only if the spell says it does - as is the case for say Shadow Evocation (although what if anything is meant by a 40% effectiveness of infinite resilience from a shadow wall of force is at best unclear). Things which aren't Figments or Glamers and don't say that they can be disbelieved can't be.

Yeah, Shadow stuff thinks that nobody casts anything but shadow fireball, so the rules don't make sense for important stuff, but I usually go with a 40% chance per person that they run through a wall.

Cause my theory, as expounded above, is that anti-photons are bigger and more dense, so sometimes you slip the gap, and sometimes you get gut punched.

[Roy]

Eh. I've taken those sort of things as x% chance of effect. If you make a Shadow Forcecage and they pass the save, there's a 60% chance they are still trapped, and a 40% chance they can walk through the shadow force wall. Because the effect is 'trapped in a box'.

How is this even unclear?

[IGTN]

What happens if you try to stop a flood with a shadow wall of force? A regular wall of force could hold back an infinite amount of water (provided it can't go over or around the wall, but let's say you're underground, so you don't have that problem). Does 60% of the water just go through the shadow forcefield? Is the shadow forcefield 40% as big as it would normally be? Does it just change the water's momentum by 40% of what it would normally change by on impact? All of those are different things, with real consequences for a party trying to escape a water (or lava) flow in a dungeon.

It gets even weirder when you build a bridge out of it. It can hold an infinite amount of weight as long as all of that weight believes in it, but only 40% (or maybe there's a 60% chance of falling through) if you disbelieve. So what happens when you drive a wagon across? What about a hockey puck (unattended, unlike the wagon with the horses)?

[Gelare]

I think there are actual real, 100% answers to each of those situations, although I forget what they are. Don't non-magical, unattended objects automatically (pick one: believe/disbelieve) illusions? If so, the entirety of the water will (pick one: go through/be blocked by) the shadow wall. Same applies for objects going over the bridge, and for sentient things that actually get will saves, they just have a 40% chance for each of them, so six will fall through totally at random and the rest just won't for no reason.

EDIT: Gods, I'm sorry, it's really late and I'm just not thinking clearly. I can't promise anything above (or forthcoming) is helpful. If objects do automatically fail their saves, it's all blocked and there's no problem. If they automatically succeed, I've got no clue.

[Username17]

That's a satisfactory answer to the inanimate object question: they fail saves so they "believe."

But if you walk on a shadow wall of stone you don't believe in it still holds you up. It's just 40% less strong. WTF does 40% less strong of unlimited strength even mean?

-Username17

[Koumei]

(sideways 8)/100 = (sideways 8) * 40 = (sideways 8).

So it's still infinite, you're good.

[Rathe]

Thanks everyone for all the help.
Makes me want to play a gnome beguiler/shadowcaster even moreso.

[SunTzuWarmaster]

Pshaw, all the gnome shadowcasters are wizards, you can take that sweet class feature:
"lose: familliar, gain: all illusions require saves, always, flip off DM"
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/class ... riants.htm

In addition, of course, to the standard: Earth Sense + Earth Spell + Heighten Spell + lvl0 Silent Image substitution.

That's right kids, you can cast most any evocation/conjuration spell in the game from any particular slot (lvl5 slot = any lvl spell). Sorry, although it HELPS beguilers a whole ton more, the odd combos of substitution levels, prestige classes, lower level spells, and early entry makes with wizard the FAR more optimal choice.

For relevant links to questions:
Google: rules of the game illusions pattern (1st 2 hits)

They sum it up pretty much the way it is explained here: figments/glamours are not real, patterns are totally real.

[Rathe]

Well SunTW, that has several flavours of awesome in it.

I only said Beguiler because my group will not let me play Wizards...like at all. I negated one too many encounters with the cloud spells + shape spell tricks.