Making Retreats viable

[RandomCasualty2]

It seems like in all editions of D&D, the monsters tend to be faster than the PCs. This is generally to combat kiting of monsters, but it also means that PCs can't run away effectively at all. And as we've seen in 4E, generally if you've got the speed to retreat, then you become an invincible horse archer.

What's a good way to make retreating viable in a tactical battlemap sense, and without making kiting an unbeatable strategy?

[CatharzGodfoot]

It seems like in all editions of D&D, the monsters tend to be faster than the PCs. This is generally to combat kiting of monsters, but it also means that PCs can't run away effectively at all. And as we've seen in 4E, generally if you've got the speed to retreat, then you become an invincible horse archer.

What's a good way to make retreating viable in a tactical battlemap sense, and without making kiting an unbeatable strategy?

A fucking chase system. Also, shorter ranges for weapons relative to movement rates.

[RandomCasualty2]

A fucking chase system. Also, shorter ranges for weapons relative to movement rates.

Yeah, I mean I know chase systems can work, the problem is writing them in so that they can work with a tactical battlemap.

At what point for instance, do you go into chase mode and out of battle mode?

[violence in the media]

There are three parts to this problem that I can see:

First, the "You go, I go" nature of taking turns doesn't feel like a chase. It feels like a pair of bouncy balls attached by a rubber band. If we're 15' apart and you take off for the hills, I not only have to maintain your speed to keep up, but have to constantly exceed it to catch up. Furthermore, my rate of overtaking you is going to depend on how much faster than you I am. The game provides for dex checks in these situations, but they only apply when we have exactly the same speed. 5' per round more that your opponent gives you an auto win.

Stemming from that, the fact that the game dosn't model exhaustion very well detracts from chase mechanics as well. If you start far enough apart, it should be entirely possible to escape a sprinter due to their inability to maintain that pace for extended periods of time.

Humanoids, in general, simply don't outrun much of anything. Considering that Usain Bolt couldn't outrun your average bear for any significant distance, is it really that unusual to imagine that an adventurer couldn't run away from a dragon or hellhound?

[CatharzGodfoot]

Yeah, I mean I know chase systems can work, the problem is writing them in so that they can work with a tactical battlemap.

At what point for instance, do you go into chase mode and out of battle mode?

Ideally they two movement types should interface transparently, and the only difference is that in a chase you aren't following the usual move/attack/move/attack sequence.

Humanoids, in general, simply don't outrun much of anything. Considering that Usain Bolt couldn't outrun your average bear for any significant distance, is it really that unusual to imagine that an adventurer couldn't run away from a dragon or hellhound?

I'd just like to call this out as bullshit. Sure, a grizzly can run 30 mph in a sprint, but for longer distances humans beat just about every other animal. Human endurance runners have better range than horses.

[mean_liar]

Successfully retreating from a battle is usually a function of exhaustion on the part of the victors outweighing their desire to give chase.

The key is in the fatigue.

[violence in the media]

Humanoids, in general, simply don't outrun much of anything. Considering that Usain Bolt couldn't outrun your average bear for any significant distance, is it really that unusual to imagine that an adventurer couldn't run away from a dragon or hellhound?

I'd just like to call this out as bullshit. Sure, a grizzly can run 30 mph in a sprint, but for longer distances humans beat just about every other animal. Human endurance runners have better range than horses.

And I'm going to call out your bullshit as bullshit, though I will explain why. The fastest human long distance runners can maintain a pace of around 12 mph for several hours. This is where you get the completion times for races like the Boston Marathon and the Death Valley Challenge. Usain Bolt, for comparison, had an average pace of around 23 mph for his 100 yard dash, and probably hit a max speed around 28-ish mph somewhere in there, probably around the 60 yard mark.

A horse, in comparison, will run at a speed of between 40 and 50 mph, for roughly a quarter-mile (1320 feet). The great cats can maintain speeds of 35-45 mph for over a half-hour. The point at which human endurance matters will simply never arrive, as you'll have been run down and eaten long before it ever comes up. Especially if you started this race in punching distance of the animal in question.

[virgil]

The only time I've heard of human endurance running actually making a difference is when the human was the pursuer.

[Lago PARANOIA]

Humanoids, in general, simply don't outrun much of anything. Considering that Usain Bolt couldn't outrun your average bear for any significant distance, is it really that unusual to imagine that an adventurer couldn't run away from a dragon or hellhound?

That's cool.

I like having all of my encounters being fights to the death. I also really like it how my PCs will die if they even think about retreating but monsters will always be able to get away. Love that shit.

That's one of the things I love about 4th Edition and D&D in general. That if your 1st level characters encounter an umberhulk or a pack of ghouls out in the wilderness you're brown bread.

[violence in the media]

The only time I've heard of human endurance running actually making a difference is when the human was the pursuer.

Good point. I suppose that you could run down the hell-bear, if the situation warranted it and you had some time to dedicate to the chase.

Though the implication of the title led me to think it was aimed more at PCs as the retreating party.

[MGuy]

To solve the movement issue you can have chases work differently from the your turn my turn combat. Instead have phases. Change the movement scale on your battle map so that 1 square equals like 100ft or something appropriate, of movement. Everyone moves at the same time, generally in a follow the leader type thing (of course you can diverge and take a more difficult route to catch up). To make it dynamic, in places where there is rough terrain or obstacles, hard sprints, weaving, attempts to hide, or you have to make sharp turns to continue your movement, take a marker and tick off the areas. Then at the end of the movement phase have each person involved make maneuver checks using the appropriate skill (fort/endurance, tumble/acrobatics, jump/climb/athletics, escape artist, hide, etc). Then have it all boil down to some kind of point system to see how long it can go. Obvious thing is to go with Con. Each round and for each maneuver you use a point of Con to perform. You get your con mod in Con points back every round (min: 1) (so foes with a lot of Con have a big advantage). Have running give cover vs ranged attacks or something if you wanna make shooting them down hard. Extra AC bonuses for people bobbing and weaving in and out of stuff. And have magic items make these movements cost less where appropriate. If you can dimension door for example the next maneuver doesn't cost anything to do. Of course this all breaks down at a certain point when magic gets involved but you can see my major point here.

No this isn't a complete system, there are a myriad of bugs that would need to be ironed out and it makes no concessions for "fuck this chase" level abilities. Just a suggestion from off the top of my head to get theball rolling.

[CatharzGodfoot]

The point at which human endurance matters will simply never arrive, as you'll have been run down and eaten long before it ever comes up. Especially if you started this race in punching distance of the animal in question.

True enough. I didn't realize that you were using "significant difference" in a literal sense ('a distance which has significance') rather than the colloquial ('a great distance').

[violence in the media]

Humanoids, in general, simply don't outrun much of anything. Considering that Usain Bolt couldn't outrun your average bear for any significant distance, is it really that unusual to imagine that an adventurer couldn't run away from a dragon or hellhound?

That's cool.

I like having all of my encounters being fights to the death. I also really like it how my PCs will die if they even think about retreating but monsters will always be able to get away. Love that shit.

That's one of the things I love about 4th Edition and D&D in general. That if your 1st level characters encounter an umberhulk or a pack of ghouls out in the wilderness you're brown bread.

I did phrase that third issue poorly, and wound up not expressing what I meant at all.

You can construct a system that allows for retreats and chases but, for no other reason than suspension of disbelief or versimilitude or whatever you want to term it, it needs to provide some explicit rationale for why adventurers are potentially able to flee wolves and dragons and velociraptors when normal folk would be run down and eaten in short order.

How do you construct the rules to at least passingly conform to people's expectations? I.e. you will always outrun the tortise, but you will never outrun the cheetah. It's one thing to let allow for adventurers to do mythic things like that, but you don't want the system to return results that people will outright reject.

@Catharz--no problem. I'm realizing that I'm not being as clear about some things on this topic as I should be.

[hogarth]

That's one of the things I love about 4th Edition and D&D in general. That if your 1st level characters encounter an umberhulk or a pack of ghouls out in the wilderness you're brown bread.

If you're travelling through the wilderness, ride a horse.

If you're indoors, shut and bar a door.

[Lago PARANOIA]

How do you construct the rules to at least passingly conform to people's expectations? I.e. you will always outrun the tortise, but you will never outrun the cheetah. It's one thing to let allow for adventurers to do mythic things like that, but you don't want the system to return results that people will outright reject.

Adventurers should get a speed bonus based on their level. I'm cool with peasants, redshirts, and even 1st-level adventurers being pretty much doomed by a random encounter but there's no reason for this frippery to exist at any level past three.

If you're travelling through the wilderness, ride a horse.

If you're indoors, shut and bar a door.

Thanks for that unhelpful, pithy response that completely glosses over the issue.

[Apalala]

Spycraft does chases reasonably well. It's a ton of dicerolling and referencing the rules, but the actual mechanics for a chase scene--behind he wheel, on horseback, or simply running the fuck away--are solid.

[hogarth]

If you're travelling through the wilderness, ride a horse.

If you're indoors, shut and bar a door.

Thanks for that unhelpful, pithy response that completely glosses over the issue.

Your comment was idiotic, though.

"Waah! It's unfair that I can't run away from something faster than me, like a bear! The game sucks, even though I can't run away from a bear in real life!"

[RandomCasualty2]

I don't think top speed should always be the main issue in a chase. We want to get away from two guys just sprinting on open terrain. When you're running through caves, hills, marketplaces or many of the other places adventurers like to fight in, you're dealing with uneven terrain and possible obstacles along the way. And that tends to equalize the top speed sprinting advantage.

In fact, part of a lot of cinematic chases, you're going to have guys trying to knock shit over to slow down pursuit, climbing trees/fences and navigating all manner of obstacles. And often your ability to change direction and react to obstacles is going to be more important than your top speed. Large monsters like dragons or giants may be slowed by low cave ceilings and the like.

[Username17]

Your comment was idiotic, though.

"Waah! It's unfair that I can't run away from something faster than me, like a bear! The game sucks, even though I can't run away from a bear in real life!"

Are you fucking kidding me?

In real life I can´t call fire out of the sky. But I can shoot a fucking bear. What the hell does real life have to do with anything in this conversation?

-Username17

[violence in the media]

I don't think top speed should always be the main issue in a chase. We want to get away from two guys just sprinting on open terrain. When you're running through caves, hills, marketplaces or many of the other places adventurers like to fight in, you're dealing with uneven terrain and possible obstacles along the way. And that tends to equalize the top speed sprinting advantage.

Top speed shouldn't be the only consideration, of course, but it is a fairly significant one. Maybe the faster participant should gain a bonus depending on the difference in speed? Maybe just give people flat bonuses to their Haul Ass check dependent on their move speed? Would you propose using Balance checks or something similar as land-based maneuverability?

In fact, part of a lot of cinematic chases, you're going to have guys trying to knock shit over to slow down pursuit, climbing trees/fences and navigating all manner of obstacles. And often your ability to change direction and react to obstacles is going to be more important than your top speed. Large monsters like dragons or giants may be slowed by low cave ceilings and the like.

Two things, and one of these ties into something you said you liked about 4e in another thread.

First, parkour-style chases are awesome, and we should encourage them. But what skills/traits/qualities are you going to base the mechanics on that won't simply result in a demon-ape, or wraith, being Better Than You? The larger question becomes, are there some creatures that should simply be inescapable. And, if so, how and why?

Second, and paraphrasing you, a creature is usually going to be more suited to its home turf than you will be. Why would you imagine that a dragon should have a harder time navigating the passageways of its home than some dude in plate armor? What happens if only some of the party can outrun/escape the creature? If the party couldn't take it together, a single PC is unlikely to manifest a miracle alone. So does that mean the party conducts chases artificially as a group?

[RandomCasualty2]

Top speed shouldn't be the only consideration, of course, but it is a fairly significant one. Maybe the faster participant should gain a bonus depending on the difference in speed? Maybe just give people flat bonuses to their Haul Ass check dependent on their move speed? Would you propose using Balance checks or something similar as land-based maneuverability?

I'm not really sure how I'd do it yet, I'm just in the process of brainstorming and seeing what people come up with. Those are just some basic ideas about how I'd like chases to play out. Mechanically, I'm really not sure how to achieve that exactly.

First, parkour-style chases are awesome, and we should encourage them. But what skills/traits/qualities are you going to base the mechanics on that won't simply result in a demon-ape, or wraith, being Better Than You? The larger question becomes, are there some creatures that should simply be inescapable. And, if so, how and why?

Yeah, some creatures inevitably may be inescapeable, because when you design mechanics there are going to be some monsters that you just can't run from, because mechanically they're too good at chasing. But most of the monsters in the MM should be escapeable, at least... in the right setting. You shouldn't be about to outrun a cheetah on open plains, but you may be able to escape it in a dense forest or something.

Second, and paraphrasing you, a creature is usually going to be more suited to its home turf than you will be. Why would you imagine that a dragon should have a harder time navigating the passageways of its home than some dude in plate armor?

I don't really see anything wrong with a smaller character being better able to maneuver in caves. If you're chasing a mouse around your house, there are plenty of things it can crawl under to escape.

What happens if only some of the party can outrun/escape the creature? If the party couldn't take it together, a single PC is unlikely to manifest a miracle alone. So does that mean the party conducts chases artificially as a group?

Yeah, I mean ideally the mechanics would be set up such that PCs could run as a party, or at least give the whole group a good chance of escape. I'm thinking the faster members of the group would be responsible for setting up distractions and stuff and give the slower members a boost by slowing down pursuit.

[Lago PARANOIA]

Your comment was idiotic, though.

"Waah! It's unfair that I can't run away from something faster than me, like a bear! The game sucks, even though I can't run away from a bear in real life!"

Did you just tell me that it's okay for our fantasy characters to not be able to outrun bears because it's not possible in real life?

Even though I said in the same post you quoted that I'm okay with peasants and really low-level adventurers being pwned by their lack of fleeing?

This is exactly the kind of thing I'm talking about when I said that you're being unhelpful. I guess I can add you're being hypocritical, too, what with calling my comments idiotic.

Here's my position, once again: Redshirts (and low level adventurers, since they're also redshirts) should be pretty much unable to run away from the vast majority of wildlife. Anyone more hardcore than Theseus --which happens around level 4 or so--should pretty much be outsprinting gazelles, especially if they're a physical challenge based character. I think it's really retarded that a high-level swordsman can kick a giant crab so hard that they explode but they can't outrun the crab with said legs.

[hogarth]

Your comment was idiotic, though.

"Waah! It's unfair that I can't run away from something faster than me, like a bear! The game sucks, even though I can't run away from a bear in real life!"

Did you just tell me that it's okay for our fantasy characters to not be able to outrun bears because it's not possible in real life?

It's O.K. for a fast fantasy character to outrun a bear. A slow fantasy character should have to hide in a narrow crack, or run across a branch that won't hold the bear's weight, or cast a flying spell, or do one of a thousand other creative things instead of turning into Speedy Gonzales all of a sudden.

[Caedrus]

It seems like in all editions of D&D, the monsters tend to be faster than the PCs. This is generally to combat kiting of monsters, but it also means that PCs can't run away effectively at all. And as we've seen in 4E, generally if you've got the speed to retreat, then you become an invincible horse archer.

What's a good way to make retreating viable in a tactical battlemap sense, and without making kiting an unbeatable strategy?

One thing I suggested was to have "Retreat" as an action that takes up your whole round (so you're not really kiting while you're doing it) but raises your defenses (as if you were taking a defense action) as well as moving you faster. And you can turn corners. That way, at least, taking said action isn't basically just shouting to someone "hey, shoot me in the back!" Also, full-round actions don't take up your swift action, and the way I run things most manipulations of the environment are a swift action, including just hacking something with your sword (Because, IMO, the standard action attack represents, as the DMG suggests, a deal of swordfighting, rather than a single swing), so you can knock stuff over to discourage pursuers, etc. This makes retreat as a basic action more reliable, but you still need to actually get cool new abilities to KEEP it viable (like flying, hiding, teleporting, or super speed). Which, if I was designing the system, would totally happen.

As for the chase system... well, if I someone finds one that works particularly well, let me know! I'd sure like to see it!

Your comment was idiotic, though.

"Waah! It's unfair that I can't run away from something faster than me, like a bear! The game sucks, even though I can't run away from a bear in real life!"

Did you just tell me that it's okay for our fantasy characters to not be able to outrun bears because it's not possible in real life?

It's O.K. for a fast fantasy character to outrun a bear. A slow fantasy character should have to hide in a narrow crack, or run across a branch that won't hold the bear's weight, or cast a flying spell, or do one of a thousand other creative things instead of turning into Speedy Gonzales all of a sudden.

Absolutely.

Incidentally, with the Retreat action I'm proposing, even redshirts can outrun a charging bear if they are turning corners or doing something creative. But in an open field the bear will run the redshirt down and eat him.

[Orca]

So a reasonable point to ditch the battlemap and look up the chase rules might be if you took the Retreat action last round and nothing has attacked you since?