Tweaking [Ambush] feats

[Emerald]

I assume most folks here are familiar with [Ambush] feats, the ones that let you give up sneak attack dice to do other stuff? Well, I was linked to a debate over them on EnWorld--someone started a thread asking for help beefing them up, and one of the first few replies was from someone who thinks they're too powerful already, that core is perfectly balanced and later 3e is broken, that rogues shouldn't get Nice Things, etc.

Given that the guy who pointed me to the thread is arguing against this at the moment and not getting through, and given that the suggested changes are along the lines of the following...

Blinding Strike [Ambush]
Prerequisite: +2d6 sneak attack, Int 13, Combat Expertise
Benefit: If you make a sneak attack and score a critical hit, then the target must make a fort save vs. DC 10 + # sneak attack dice + your Wisdom bonus or be dazzled for 1d4 rounds.
Special: Multiple ambush feats may not be applied to the same sneak attack.

Painful Strike [Ambush]
Prerequisite: +2d6 sneak attack, base attack bonus +1, Chr 13, 4 ranks intimidate, Finishing Move
Benefit: If you make a sneak attack and score a critical hit, then the target must make a Fort save vs. DC 10 + # sneak attack dice + your Wisdom bonus is shaken for 1 round.
Special: Multiple ambush feats may not be applied to the same sneak attack.

....I figured I'd poll the Denizens on how [Ambush] feats look currently and how they might be improved. Thoughts?

[Surgo]

Oh no, not dazzled!

Seriously, do people still think like that? Ouch.

[RandomCasualty2]

Oh no, not dazzled!

Seriously, do people still think like that? Ouch.

And you have to pay extra sneak attack dice to get your DC up. Wow. this stuff is sad.

[Username17]

Are you paying any sneak attack dice to force a save or is it just free? Even free, it's not super great, and I have no idea why it's based on Wisdom when all Rogue powers are based on Intelligence or Dexterity. Oh, and I know I advise against feats Voltroning up one side and down the other, but reverse Voltron is much worse. If you sink 3 feats into a schtick, you should have a pretty good deal on your hands. With [ambush] feats not being usable on the same attack, it's totally unacceptable for them to all have the same trigger. That's just asking people to flush feats into the toilet.

The dazzled condition is straight meaningless. And shaken is not super great. But if you can nail someone with the shaken condition twice, it's practically a battle ender. All in all, I could actually see specifically Painful Strike, if and only if you made the following changes:

• The Save DC should be Int based.
• It should explicitly not reduce your Sneak Attack dice in any way.
• The Shaken condition should last for at least a d4 rounds.
• Remove irrelevant prereqs like Cha 13+, there's no reason for that. The save DC isn't even Charisma based.
• Wording causing it to not be stackable with other [Ambush] feats needs to be dropped, because that is crap.

Then it would be... a mediocre feat and part of a specialized Rapier build.

While we're at it, you could make Ambush Feats that:

• Upgraded a Critical Hit to a sneak attack, even if you were out of range or the target had their dex bonus and was unflanked.
• Allowed you to declare one sneak attack a round to be a touch attack.
• Made the victim of one of your sneak attacks provoke an attack of opportunity from everyone but you (like Opportunist, but in reverse).

-Username17

[Emerald]

Are you paying any sneak attack dice to force a save or is it just free? Even free, it's not super great, and I have no idea why it's based on Wisdom when all Rogue powers are based on Intelligence or Dexterity. Oh, and I know I advise against feats Voltroning up one side and down the other, but reverse Voltron is much worse. If you sink 3 feats into a schtick, you should have a pretty good deal on your hands. With [ambush] feats not being usable on the same attack, it's totally unacceptable for them to all have the same trigger. That's just asking people to flush feats into the toilet.

You're not paying any dice, it's just whatever SA dice you have that determines the save, and it was based on Wisdom "because you need perception to hit a more vulnerable spot and make the save harder" or some such.

The dazzled condition is straight meaningless. And shaken is not super great. But if you can nail someone with the shaken condition twice, it's practically a battle ender. All in all, I could actually see specifically Painful Strike, if and only if you made the following changes:

• The Save DC should be Int based.
• It should explicitly not reduce your Sneak Attack dice in any way.
• The Shaken condition should last for at least a d4 rounds.
• Remove irrelevant prereqs like Cha 13+, there's no reason for that. The save DC isn't even Charisma based.
• Wording causing it to not be stackable with other [Ambush] feats needs to be dropped, because that is crap.

Then it would be... a mediocre feat and part of a specialized Rapier build.

So in general drop prereqs, shift saves to Int, make everything stackable, and make everything longer and you'll have something worthwhile for at least a specialized build? That's about what I was thinking, but I wasn't sure if that would bring it up to par or if more was necessary.

While we're at it, you could make Ambush Feats that:

• Upgraded a Critical Hit to a sneak attack, even if you were out of range or the target had their dex bonus and was unflanked.
• Allowed you to declare one sneak attack a round to be a touch attack.
• Made the victim of one of your sneak attacks provoke an attack of opportunity from everyone but you (like Opportunist, but in reverse).

Good ideas; I'll pass those along.

For reference, the other ambush feats do the following:

• Strike Deep: Increase save DC of ambush feats by +5
• Strike Hard: +4 to hit flat-footed creatures
• Strike Fast: Free Intimidate check vs. flat-footed creatures
• Bleeding Strike: 1 damage per round, [Con score]% chance to stop bleeding each round
• Crippling Strike: 1d3 Str damage
• Deafening Strike: Deafen 1d4 rounds
• Disemboweling Strike: Sicken 1 round
• Impaling Strike: Essentially Improved Grab + Constrict with weapon
• Pounding Strike: Knock prone
• Staggering Strike: Stagger 1 round
• Stunning Strike: Daze 1 round

...all of which require at least +3d6 SA dice and 1 other feat as prereqs, allow a save, and function only on a SA+crit. Are any of those salvageable, or would it be better to scrap those make a bunch like the ones you suggested from scratch?

[Crissa]

I don't think the special effects are each worth a feat.

-Crissa

[Apalala]

If you're looking for a benchmark--not that such things really exist when you have feats like natural spell and toughness--then there's the feat Boomerang Daze.

It makes it so that any enemy you hit with a boomerang has to make a save with a DC equal to 10+damage dealt or be dazed for one round. So right off the bat you have a feat that exists that doesn't require a crit, doesn't require sneak attack, has a crippling condition like daze, and has a DC that can easily be made impossible to beat.

Ambush feats burning sneak attack dice to power special effects is a good mechanic. You should be getting a lot more bang for your buck though. One way to increase bang is to increase the buck. Ambush feats should be pretty spectacular maneuvers that have a large impact, not minor abilities tagging alongside the massive damage of a full attack.

So, make it work like this. Ambush feats require you to make a sneak attack, but using an ambush feat is a standard action. One attack in one round. Then you can reasonably justify having some devastating abilities.

Example:

Blinding Strike [Ambush]
Prerequisite: +2d6 sneak attack, Int 13,
Benefit: When you use a standard action to make an attack and can deal +2d6 sneak attack damage or more, you may reduce the damage dealt by 2d6. If you do so, the target must make a fort save (DC 10+1/2 HD+Dex Mod) or become blind until it receives at least one point of healing or a successful heal check at the same DC.

If you had 4d6 sneak attack, you could use two such Ambush feats at the same time, stacking the effects. The more dice and feats you have, the more options for mixing and matching.

[Judging__Eagle]

You're not paying any dice, it's just whatever SA dice you have that determines the save, and it was based on Wisdom "because you need perception to hit a more vulnerable spot and make the save harder" or some such.

bullshit.

Even from a fluff point of view, using wisdom for that is... so incredibly stupid. At high speeds, you're working on instinct and training for your motions and strikes.

Seriously. A real fighter today practices a move 900 times before it's muscle memory; and 1200 times before it's instinct. Those are the benchmarks given in current manuals on how to train for MMA fighting.

Wisdom has nothing to do with that, while Int and Dex actually do.

Here's better fluff:

"You need to be flexible and agile to strike a precise point, your body moves like a whip to hit the right point."

"Your non-stop study and practice on the anatomy of creatures has taught you where to strike, to make it hurt."

[CatharzGodfoot]

bullshit.

Bullshit; D&D attributes are bullshit. You can make a rationalization for it being based on any of them with the possible exception of constitution (which doesn't make sense for anything). The only thing that matters is what a rogue is likely to have.

[Leress]

It makes it so that any enemy you hit with a boomerang has to make a save with a DC equal to 10+damage dealt or be dazed for one round. So right off the bat you have a feat that exists that doesn't require a crit, doesn't require sneak attack, has a crippling condition like daze, and has a DC that can easily be made impossible to beat.

Wow, that DC is all types of bullshit.

Ambush feats burning sneak attack dice to power special effects is a good mechanic. You should be getting a lot more bang for your buck though.

Sounds good

One way to increase bang is to increase the buck. Ambush feats should be pretty spectacular maneuvers that have a large impact, not minor abilities tagging alongside the massive damage of a full attack.

So, make it work like this. Ambush feats require you to make a sneak attack, but using an ambush feat is a standard action. One attack in one round. Then you can reasonably justify having some devastating abilities.

Example:

Blinding Strike [Ambush]
Prerequisite: +2d6 sneak attack, Int 13,
Benefit: When you use a standard action to make an attack and can deal +2d6 sneak attack damage or more, you may reduce the damage dealt by 2d6. If you do so, the target must make a fort save (DC 10+1/2 HD+Dex Mod) or become blind until it receives at least one point of healing or a successful heal check at the same DC.

If you had 4d6 sneak attack, you could use two such Ambush feats at the same time, stacking the effects. The more dice and feats you have, the more options for mixing and matching.

Wait, what? That's paying way too much just to do one or more effects. You would be better off just doing a regular full attack sneak attack. Why have it INT requirement but make the DC DEX based? No only does this require a standard action it also reduces the damage for no real reason. Choose one or the other since both make the effect not worth it.

[Apalala]

For a benchmark, I used the Monk's Stunning Fist. Prerequisite is really a meh thing. I would be fine with it just requiring +2d6 sneak attack.

Paying the sneak attack dice is for two reasons. One, using the ambush feats should be about trying to gain some sort of tactical advantage beyond simply dealing lots of damage. Two, it gives you a currency to spend. If you didn't reduce the damage and had multiple ambush feats, then you would have the option of hitting an enemy with either all or one of them at a time.

If it's too weak of an effect for having to sacrifice your full attack and sneak attack damage, I'd rather boost the power of the effect than get rid of the sacrifice.

[RandomCasualty2]

Paying the sneak attack dice is for two reasons. One, using the ambush feats should be about trying to gain some sort of tactical advantage beyond simply dealing lots of damage. Two, it gives you a currency to spend. If you didn't reduce the damage and had multiple ambush feats, then you would have the option of hitting an enemy with either all or one of them at a time.

Yeah, paying something is important, simply because it creates a choice.

Spamming sneak attacks is already default for a rogue anyway. Honestly, you don't need to have feats that just ramp up the effect of sneak attack, since it just leads to more one trick pony styles.

It doesn't necessarily have to be sneak attack dice, you can have some of them activated via a swift action, others may cause the rogue to give up his dex mod to AC for 1 round, and so on.

[Apalala]

Paying the sneak attack dice is for two reasons. One, using the ambush feats should be about trying to gain some sort of tactical advantage beyond simply dealing lots of damage. Two, it gives you a currency to spend. If you didn't reduce the damage and had multiple ambush feats, then you would have the option of hitting an enemy with either all or one of them at a time.

Yeah, paying something is important, simply because it creates a choice.

Spamming sneak attacks is already default for a rogue anyway. Honestly, you don't need to have feats that just ramp up the effect of sneak attack, since it just leads to more one trick pony styles.

It doesn't necessarily have to be sneak attack dice, you can have some of them activated via a swift action, others may cause the rogue to give up his dex mod to AC for 1 round, and so on.

Mm, though the main cost you're paying with the feat is giving up your full attack. That doesn't just change the way you fight, but how you build your character. For instance, a rogue entirely focused on these style of ambush feats would have little use for dual-wielding.

Now, if only there was a way to get rid of those goddamn acid flasks...

[Prak]

Oh no, not dazzled!

Seriously, do people still think like that? Ouch.

I had a guy tell me the other day that rogues shouldn't be able to get their sneak attack on a flanked target... he wants to tack facing into D&D.


fucking warhammer-tards...

[Username17]

Rogues only keep up with anything because of multi-attacks.

If Rogue was to shy away from multiattack spamming to attack only once a turn, they'd better get a genuine stunlock out of the deal.

-Username17

[MGuy]

Wasn't facing brought up in Unearthed Arcana?

[Username17]

Wasn't facing brought up in Unearthed Arcana?

Yes, but not in any functional way.

[CatharzGodfoot]

Now, if only there was a way to get rid of those goddamn acid flasks...

It's easy: give them another way to make touch attacks.

[Apalala]

Bored, so a few more:

Rend Armor [Ambush]
Prerequisite: +2d6 sneak attack,
Benefit: When you use a standard action to make an attack and can deal +2d6 sneak attack damage or more, you may reduce the damage dealt by 2d6. If you do so, the target must make a reflex save (DC 10+1/2 HD+Dex Mod) or lose all natural and mundane armor bonuses. Natural armor "heals" at a rate of 1 per minute, while armor requires at least 10 minutes and a successful Craft (Armorsmithing) check, with a DC equal to the first.

Bane Strike [Ambush]
Prerequisite: +4d6 sneak attack,
Benefit: You can sneak attack things normally immune to sneak attack. Additionally, when you use a standard action to make an attack that would deal 6d6 or more damage, you may reduce the damage by 6d6. If so, in addition to normal weapon damage, the attack has a special effect, depending on the target's type:

Construct: Target must make a successful fort save (DC 1/2hd+dex) or be paralyzed. This condition may be removed with a successful craft check of the appropriate type.
Undead: Target must make a successful reflex save (DC 1/2hd+dex) or lose a number of limbs of the attacker's choice equal to the difference of the save. Loss of 5 or more limbs effectively renders the undead creature helpless.
Outsider/Elemental: Target must make a will save (DC 1/2hd+dex) or be banished to its native plane. This effect does not work if the target is on its native plane.
Ooze: Target must make a fort save (DC 1/2hd+dex) or lose all ability to hold its shape for a 1/HD rounds. While under this effect, an ooze's area doubles, but it may not move or attack creatures more than 4 feet off the ground.
Plant: Target must make a fort save (DC 1/2hd+dex) or become paralyzed. This condition may be removed with 8 full hours of sunlight.

Special: In order to use this feat on a monster, the character needs relatively obscure knowledge. He must either first either make a successful appropriate knowledge check (DC 10+Monster's HD) or have the weakness explained by someone who has. Explaining requires a standard action, unless the person explaining makes a successful concentration at the same DC. Failure means they bite their tongue, which really stings.

Blah, that was a long one. Moving on.

Stunning Strike [Ambush]
Prerequisite: +3d6 sneak attack,
Benefit: When you use a standard action to make an attack and can deal +3d6 sneak attack damage or more, you may reduce the damage dealt by 3d6. If you do so, the target must make a fort save (DC 10+1/2 HD+Dex Mod) or be stunned for one round.

Knockout Strike [Ambush]
Prerequisite: +6d6 sneak attack,
Benefit: When you use a standard action to make an attack and can deal +6d6 sneak attack damage or more, you may reduce the damage dealt by 6d6. If you do so, the target must make a fort save (DC 10+1/2 HD+Dex Mod) or be knocked unconscious for 1 minute/HD.


Death Strike [Ambush]
Prerequisite: +10d6 sneak attack,
Benefit: When you use a standard action to make an attack and can deal +10d6 sneak attack damage or more, you may reduce the damage dealt by 10d6. If you do so, the target dies.

[Sunwitch]

Now, if only there was a way to get rid of those goddamn acid flasks...

It's easy: give them another way to make touch attacks.

I'd be real interested in ideas for making this all work. I've got a guy playing an assassin in my campaign right now and he (justifiably) is just not a big fan of the acid flask tosser. Dagger guys can get by to an extent with Wraithstrike, but this guy uses a longbow. Does anyone have any ideas how to make that work?

[Username17]

Stunning Strike [Ambush]
Prerequisite: +3d6 sneak attack,
Benefit: When you use a standard action to make an attack and can deal +3d6 sneak attack damage or more, you may reduce the damage dealt by 3d6. If you do so, the target must make a fort save (DC 10+1/2 HD+Dex Mod) or be stunned for one round.

So your goal is to make the PHB Monk feel good about his life choices? If you give up all your sneak attack damage, you're just a 3/4 BAB class with shitty hit points and weak armor. What you're talking about is a Stunning Fist attempt that can only be used when flanking and doesn't even come with Monkish bonus damage or Monkish bonus attacks. That's just... really sad.

-Username17

[koz]

I'd be real interested in ideas for making this all work. I've got a guy playing an assassin in my campaign right now and he (justifiably) is just not a big fan of the acid flask tosser. Dagger guys can get by to an extent with Wraithstrike, but this guy uses a longbow. Does anyone have any ideas how to make that work?

Write a spell that resembles this.

Ishara's Phasing Arrow
Transmutation
Level: Assassin 3, Sorcerer/Wizard 2
Components: V, S
Casting time: 1 swift action
Range: Personal
Target: You
Duration: 1 round

For the duration of this spell, any ranged attacks by bows or crossbows that you wield are resolved as touch attacks.

[Apalala]

Stunning Strike [Ambush]
Prerequisite: +3d6 sneak attack,
Benefit: When you use a standard action to make an attack and can deal +3d6 sneak attack damage or more, you may reduce the damage dealt by 3d6. If you do so, the target must make a fort save (DC 10+1/2 HD+Dex Mod) or be stunned for one round.

So your goal is to make the PHB Monk feel good about his life choices? If you give up all your sneak attack damage, you're just a 3/4 BAB class with shitty hit points and weak armor. What you're talking about is a Stunning Fist attempt that can only be used when flanking and doesn't even come with Monkish bonus damage or Monkish bonus attacks. That's just... really sad.

-Username17

Prerequisite: +3d6 sneak attack,
Benefit: When you use a standard action to make an attack and can deal +3d6 sneak attack damage or more, you may reduce the damage dealt by 3d6. If you do so, the target must make a fort save (DC 10+1/2 HD+Dex Mod) or be stunned for 1hour/hd.

Better? I still don't think it's so bad as it is. At level five, the monk can attempt to stun five times per day, and blows an attempt if he misses. At level 7, you're going to be able to stun vampires. Plus, rogues are going to usually have a higher DC since they're using dexterity. Still, balancing this against the Monk of all classes...

1round/2HD sounds good to me.

[Username17]

Better?

No. It's not. That's a horrible feat for the game. You don't do meaningful damage but you force a save or they fucking die (being stunned for several hours is completely indistinguishable from death).

Take a step back. Why the fucking hell do you think that someone would go up many levels of Rogue only to stop being a guy who did a lot of damage and started being a guy who didn't do measurable damage at all and started using genuine binary Save or Dies instead?

-Username17

[Apalala]

Better?

No. It's not. That's a horrible feat for the game. You don't do meaningful damage but you force a save or they fucking die (being stunned for several hours is completely indistinguishable from death).

Take a step back. Why the fucking hell do you think that someone would go up many levels of Rogue only to stop being a guy who did a lot of damage and started being a guy who didn't do measurable damage at all and started using genuine binary Save or Dies instead?

-Username17

That's the whole point of Ambush feats. The point of this thread, I figured, was to fix them and make them a viable tactical option for rogues. The core idea behind them is that you're giving up damage for some benefit.

Actually making that benefit worthwhile can be a bit difficult to balance. The stunning one is available at level 5 at the earliest, so I guess you can look at the level 5 wizard, who just got access to level 3 spells. Among these Hold Person--which is level 2 for bards and clerics, but whatever.

So, reasonably, the feat needs to be balanced with Stunning Blow and Hold Person. Compared to SB, the advantage is that you can do it at will, from a range of up to 30 feet. Of course, being able to sneak attack is a bit harder than being able to hit something. Specialist wizard with 18 intelligence is going to have 3 level 3 spells per day. If you fight one thing a day, the wizard is going to have a clear advantage. Fight four or more and the rogue does. In between is a tossup.

I still think that 1 round of stunning is plenty debilitating and viable for a feat choice, 1/2hd moreso. Of course, if you wanted you can go another direction with Ambush feats. If you want to use them with full attacks, the effects would need to be less powerful, but still worthwhile. Perhaps being able to trade sneak attack dice for penalties at a 1d6:1 ratio. Give up three dice, inflict a -3 modifier to their will save or attack bonus.