Rich Baker talks 4e Dark Sun.

[Psychic Robot]

Hey all! We held our first live chat with the new system today, and it went over really well. We had a couple of kinks we worked through, which should just make things go smoother the next time. Oh yes - there will be a next time, and I'll post up all the details on the next chat here once I have them.

I transcribed the chat for all those who weren't able to attend, and you can find all the info below. Thanks again to everyone who contributed questions through the community site, twitter, and Facebook, and to everyone who filled the chat room! Begin Transcript:

Wotc_RichBaker: It seemed to get quiet, so I think Trevor set me up as the only guy who could talk. He’s postin g amessage about how to ask question for the chat here, so that should appear momentarily!

In the meantime…allow myself to introduce myself! I’m Rich Baker, a senior designer with Wizards of the Coast’s RPG R&D team. I’ve been with Wizards of the Coast 1997, and I was with TSR for six years before that. I’ve worked on three editions of D&D, and I’m also an author in our Forgotten Realms setting. I’m I’m also the lead designer for our Axis & Allies naval miniatures, too!

So, as you folks have questions, just PM them to WotC_Trevor, and he’ll flip them to me. I’ll start with a Q or two collected in the last couple of days, just to prime the pump.

Here’s the first: Is Dark Sun 4E doing a time-jump like FR did? If so, is it going backward, forward, or with just a totally different history altogether? (from MrBobDobalina in D&D forums)

Depends on what era you were playing in. We’re going back to the timeframe of the original 1991 boxed set, which is like a 10-year jump back if you were playing in the post-Prism Pentad era.

We view this new edition as “Ultimate Dark Sun” rather like Marvel Comics’ Ultimate versions of its classic titles. It’s a chance to distill the setting into its purest and best (we hope) presentation.

OK, now on to a new one. Olfactatron asks: What new classes can we expect to see in the Campaign Guide?

The short answer is: No new classes. We looked long and hard about whether a gladiator class or a templar class was warranted. We finally decided that we could provide good gladiators and templars with the tools existing in our array of classes already. For example, we have a gladiator build for the fighter class. It’s hard to imagine a fighter that wouldn’t be a good gladiator or vice versa.

We have some other NEW and AWESOME design tech at work too, but I can’t reveal too much about it yet, sorry. That bit has to wait until D&D XP, I’m afraid. Suffice it to say: You’ll be happy about how you can gladiator-up for Dark Sun.

OK, moving on to another pre-asked question…

Since Rich has been using class titles for his “Blades of the Moonsea” trilogy, does that portent a “Corsair” class in development? (From Michael Trentz on Facebook)

Funny how that worked out. If you’re a military buff you might have noticed that 2 out of 3 book titles also correspond to famous US aircraft. The book titles say something about Geran (my protagonist) and the situation he finds himself in during each story. They’re not really meant to indicate character classes. Though I did choose the title Avenger when the avenger class was known as the templar. I might have changed my mind if I’d seen the name change in the class coming.

So no, no corsair class coming, sorry! (But it sounds like it would be awesome, can’t ever have too many priates)

WotC_Trevor: How the heck didyou make Thri-Kreen playable in 4th? (From Pigfiend)

WotC_RichBaker: Good Question! We had to pick the qualities and abilities that we felt were most central to the thri-kreen, and let other things slide.

For example, back in 2e thri-kreen had Natural Armor, awesome jumping, natural attacks, a paralyzing bite, didn’t sleep, had multi-arm weapon use, so on, and so on.

We decided to drop the bite, treat two of your arms as smaller/weaker so you don’t normally quad-wield with them. And we decided to go with the more upright/humanoid appearance from #e’s MM2 thri-kreen, as opposed to the giant mantis look of old Dark Sun. We used the tech of racial paragon paths to delay some of the abilities that would otherwise be hard to balance with other races.

So in short: They’re nerfed as compared to 2e, but they’re a solid and balanced choice for 4e campaigns. And we hope they’re still true to the vision/intent of the mantis warrior.

OK, another pre-asked Q. What can we expect from the Dark Sun character creation rules? Specficially, will character made in this setting be compatible with other settings? (From Cpt_Micha in the D&D forums).

The answer: We think there’s a real value to the Dark Sun DM in better portability across settings. We want you to be able to drop core monsters in your Dark Sun games more easily, and to be able to import Dark Sun characters into core games, if that's what you want to do.

It was really tough to do that back in 2e with the uber-ability scores and level bump and awesome wild talent, so we retreated a bit from that, and set it up so that a 1st level Dark Sun character is a great way to start your game, and about as good as other 1st level characters. (Worth noting that core D&D has been improving the power/heroic-ness of 1st level characters for a long time. So these days 1st level characters are a lot like 3rd level characters were back in 2e’s heyday.)

Dark Sun characters do have a couple important edges. For example, we recommend the use of the Inherent Enhancement bonust touched on in the DMG 2. But otherwise they’re on par with the core characters.

Trevor, got another one?

Wotc_Trevor: From Ultimate_Arcane: Can you say if there will be any new weapons in the DS campaign guide? Any examples?

Wotc_RichBaker: Spoken like a true Dark Sun grognard, Ultimate!

Yes, we made sure to include a selection of the classic Dark Sun unique weapons. We’ve got the Cahulaks, carrikals, gouges, and a couple of others like the thri-kreen chatkcha, the widows blade, the dragon’s paw… it’s a pretty good selection I think.

OK, another pre-asked Q: Can we expect a Dragon King Epic Destiny, and if so, any hints on what it might entail? (from Silicon Wolf in the D&D Forums)

Answer: Yes, we have a dragon king epic destiny.

It’s not quite as crunchy as the old Dragon Kings dragon rules were, in that epic destinies really only offer about 4-5 distinct mechanical features. But it’s a pretty good nod to the old material.

Plus, NPC dragon kings aren’t really bound by the same character advancement rules that PCs follow. So they’re free to be their own thing. (That’s a 4e philosophy for handling NPCs at work).

Got another Trevor?

WotC_Trevor: From Themadlibrarian: With they heavy foreshadowing at the end of Corsair, will we be seeing the return of Gerran’s villainous cousin?

WotC_RichBaker: Hmmm, trying to decide how much to say here…

Sergen doesn’t appear in Avenger; in Avenger, Geran’s dealing with his old menesis Rhovann, plus the King in Copper, the Cyricist Valdarsel, and others. I don’t know if I would say that Sergen will never appear again, but I don’t have much planned for him at the moment.

Okay, another pre-asked one: How will Dark Sun handle being forsaken by the gods and the diving power source? (From Siliconwolf on Twitter)

This is a place where the 4e rules really help us out. 2e Dark Sun really suffered from a dearth of characters in the leader (healer) role. Most elemental clerics were mediocre healers at best, and not many people wanted to play a templar to be the party healer.

So in 4e, you can have warlords and bards and ardents (well, you’ll see them soon) anchoring your party in the leader role. With gods absent from the setting, it feels like the best implementation of the setting to remove the divine power source, and let people explore the alternatives.

All righty, Trevor, got one more for me?

WotC_Trevor: From Raddu76: Any insight into how Defiling will work in relation to Preserving?

WotC_RichBaker: Good one Raddu.

We looked at this one long and hard, and here’s what we came up with. Preserving is the default. If you just cast a spell and don’t say anything, you’re assumed to preserve. However all arcane characters have a new Defiling at-will power, which you can use when you use daily powers, at the cost of hurting your allies (and killing plants, of course). We set it on dailies so it wouldn’t come up with every single spell you used, and we had to tie it in to some mechanical effect other than what is effectively a story penalty (killing plants).

So all arcane characters have this temptation just hanging there for them, saying, C’mon, you know you wanna…. We think it makes defiling play like it reads in the books: you’re tempted to do it when you think you need the power.

Okay, I have time for maybe 2 more questions, and then I gotta fly.

Q: Does he plan to re-release some of the old Darksun adventuers adapted for 4th ed? (From Aaron McCanless on Facebook)

A: No, we’re not going to do that. We have a new adventure planned, and DDi/Dungeon support, but we’re not going to convert old material.

Flip me a couple from the audience, Trevor.

WotC_Trevor: From Mase27: As the time line moves along in DS, will the overall story differ from the prism pentad, or will the historical events be largely unchaged.

WotC_RichBaker: Nice one Mase.

We view the new edition of Dark Sun as being more of a world snapshot than the start of a big new story arc. We wanted to create a snapshot in which the events of the Prism Pentad *could* take place but didn’t have to, if the DM wants to tell a different story from this starting point.

OK, on to the last Q!

WotC_Trevor: From MisterKojak: Spelljammer? Dare a boy Dream….?

WotC_RichBaker: A couple of years ago I would have said no way. Now, I’m not so sure. We’ve got a few rumblings that might be coming around in the future. Nothing coming up really soon, but…maybe.

In the meantime, my novel Corsair touches on it a bit, if you want a little taste of spelljamming in and around 4e Forgotten Realms. (a bit of self-promotion there, sorry)

OK folks, I’m afraid I have to run. Thanks to all of you for stopping by, and I hope I got at least a few of the questions you cared about answered!

Emphasis mine. Sigh.

[Sunwitch]

We looked at this one long and hard, and here’s what we came up with. Preserving is the default. If you just cast a spell and don’t say anything, you’re assumed to preserve. However all arcane characters have a new Defiling at-will power, which you can use when you use daily powers, at the cost of hurting your allies (and killing plants, of course). We set it on dailies so it wouldn’t come up with every single spell you used, and we had to tie it in to some mechanical effect other than what is effectively a story penalty (killing plants).

This is a good idea that is going to make 4th edition more fun to play.



I like the implication that they actually went over a lot of ideas that they spent a long time coming up with and decided this was the winner. And people are still going to pay money for this.

[Username17]

Honestly, rolling back Darksun to the first box set before it got filled up with weird bullshit is a good idea. The part that makes me fearful is actually that he decides that words like "new" and "awesome" need to be in all caps. That indicates that he is approaching the problem like a 14 year old boy, and that just doesn't sound like a stable design platform for anything.

I'd also feel better if he had mentioned specific Ultimate/All Star/Year One titles. I mean, as is it really sounds like they are making Ultimatum or The God Damn Batman.

-Username17

[schpeelah]

at the cost of hurting your allies

How much would you be willing to bet those guys finally went on and made a power that hurts your allies just because they are allies? As in, the party Fighter 9 squares away takes damage while a neutral NPC next to the Wizard does not?

[Lago PARANOIA]

Allies in 4E (and 3E, to an extent) can purposely choose to ignore effects that target allies.

It'd make more sense for the spells to have a prerequisite of draining power from your allies before it works, like a spirit bomb.

But anyway, how much money do you want to bet that 4E will miss the obvious marketting ploy of actually making their Dark Sun setting an actual boxed set and just release a stupid book? If you're going for nostalgia appeal you should go whole hog.

[Data Vampire]

Allies in 4E (and 3E, to an extent) can purposely choose to ignore effects that target allies.

I do not remember a rule like that. Do you have a page number?

It'd make more sense for the spells to have a prerequisite of draining power from your allies before it works, like a spirit bomb.

I remember a dark pact warlock power that has an additional effect based on the number of allies that chose to be damaged by it. It is called One Final Sacrifice.

[RandomCasualty2]

Well we all saw the rules for dehydration that they're using for new Dark Sun. Seriously after that shit... we can't expect anything good to come out of this.

[Lago PARANOIA]

Page 57 of the PHB, under 'Target':

Otherwise, "ally" or "allies" does not include you, and both terms assume willing targets.

If someone isn't willing then they're not an ally. So unless these powers have some other sort of mitigating effect (such as requiring a prequisite of ally sacrifices before they're used) then the side effect means donkey dick. Or they could just have the side effects target creatures, but then that would mean that players could actually use Defilement spells to hurt enemies further. And I just don't see that happening, because that's 'overpowered'.

[Username17]

Allies in 4E (and 3E, to an extent) can purposely choose to ignore effects that target allies.

I do not remember a rule like that. Do you have a page number?

Page 57, PHB 1.

When a power’s target entry specifies that it affects you and one or more of your allies, then you can take advantage of the power’s effect along with your teammates. Otherwise, “ally” or “allies” does not include you, and both terms assume willing targets.

Personally, I'm looking forward to them making a power that damages all your allies in a burst and powers up wizard dailies. Because that has no drawback at all, and powers up wizard dailies.

-Username17

[Prak]

It’s hard to imagine a fighter that wouldn’t be a good gladiator or vice versa.

This is a part that bothers me.... both are far too easy to imagine, I think.

Fighter is a shit class, and probably will have trouble standing up to much on it's own.

Good gladiators that aren't fighters? gee let's see here....

Druid. Turns into savage beasts, commands those unleashed, can fuck with the battle field with sandstorms and shit, and flashy spells.

Barbarian. yeah.

Pugilist. If only monks were good...

Spellcasters in general. given the proper build.

Rogue. flipping around, evading being hit, and sticking the opponent in the vitals after throwing sand to blind.

There are plenty of D&D gladiatorial concepts that aren't fighters.

[hogarth]

It’s hard to imagine a fighter that wouldn’t be a good gladiator or vice versa.

There are plenty of D&D gladiatorial concepts that aren't fighters.

From context, it's pretty clear that he's talking about the 2E Dark Sun gladiator class.

[Koumei]

I like the bit where they admit Epic Destinies are a steaming heap of shit (4-5 abilities total, including the Enc. an Daily power) and pretend that's not a problem.

[NineInchNall]

It would have been nice if he'd said flat out that 4e characters are just plain less powerful than those of earlier editions. "4e doesn't support the level of power necessary to represent the dragon kings or evangions. Deal."

That would have made me smile.

[Lago PARANOIA]

What DID Dragon Kings and Evangions do?

What makes me smile even more is the realization that people will pick up these vague shadows of a class, do the math, and realize that the setting designs of DS flat-out lied to them; they aren't Dragon Kings, they're just some joker whose best feature is +2 to two stats.

It's almost been ten years now and I'm still feeling jilted by the betrayal of the monk class. I want to share that disappointment and hatred with the entire world, muahaha.

[Psychic Robot]

What makes me smile even more is the realization that people will pick up these vague shadows of a class, do the math, and realize that the setting designs of DS flat-out lied to them; they aren't Dragon Kings, they're just some joker whose best feature is +2 to two stats.

I don't think that will happen at all. Remember, NPCs in 4e don't play by the rules, so the NPC Dragon Kings will be at an arbitrary power level that the PCs can never meet unless the DM says so. (Also, the majority of 4e powers are based on little effects in combat. There's nothing in the game to support godlike powers.)

[Koumei]

It's almost been ten years now and I'm still feeling jilted by the betrayal of the monk class. I want to share that disappointment and hatred with the entire world, muahaha.

[RandomCasualty2]

The weak PC dragon king thing doesn't really bother me. I mean of course you're not suppsoed to be as powerful as a sorcerer king is, because they're designed to be solo monsters. You're one PC party against the sorcerer king and his minions. If the PCs are a party of sorcerer king equivalent characters, there's nothing left in the world to challenge them.

Now it'd be kinda cool to have a PC retire and eventually assume the mantle of a full sorcerer king, but as far as adventuring purposes, you just assume he's partially on his way to the transformation, but he's not a full power dragon king.

Dragon kings are the biggest badasses of dark sun. They are the gods of the setting. Once you have four of those in a party, you've pretty much outgrown the setting and can no longer play in it. Presenting rules for characters you can't play is pointless.

[Psychic Robot]

I just realized that Baker referred to racial feats as "design tech."

[Prak]

It’s hard to imagine a fighter that wouldn’t be a good gladiator or vice versa.

There are plenty of D&D gladiatorial concepts that aren't fighters.

From context, it's pretty clear that he's talking about the 2E Dark Sun gladiator class.

Wasn't aware there'd been one. There were a couple floating around in 3e, which did some interesting things, though..

[Crissa]

Ugh. Is it just me, or is that 'conversation' a load of gibberish?

-Crissa

[Red Archon]

It's almost been ten years now and I'm still feeling jilted by the betrayal of the monk class. I want to share that disappointment and hatred with the entire world, muahaha.

And we're still expecting you to finish telling us the story of said betrayal. Nudge nudge, wink wink.

And to say something about the topic, without actually contributing anything even vaguely constructive:

Fuck that shit.

[TOZ]

I just realized that Baker referred to racial feats as "design tech."

Is THAT what he meant? I thought he was just trying to sound like an advanced designer or something. And failng.

[erik]

It's almost been ten years now and I'm still feeling jilted by the betrayal of the monk class. I want to share that disappointment and hatred with the entire world, muahaha.

Wow, it's been about that long since I played a monk! 3rd edition, level 1 human monk, named Cookie (prophetically). Ghoul paralyzed, coup de gras'd, later eaten.

I suppose in retrospect it was a mercy killing.

[Prak]

what was the ghoul named? Did the group fanname him cookie monster?

[Lago PARANOIA]

You know, a ghoul took my monk behind the woodshed and curbstomped my character, but I didn't die from it. I had to get rescued by the fucking bard. So I feel your pain about the ghoul thing.

And I'm not sure but I think I got the stuffing beat out of me in a bar-sanctioned cage-fight by a 3rd-level cleric who held the charge on an inflict moderate wounds. And he then... well, that's another story.