5th Edition

[Mask_De_H]

Alright, since I don't want to hijack/clutter up the Lago's Kick Ass Book Marketing thread with this and I've been working on the basic stuff, here is the 5th Edition system thread.

Character Generation:

Choose Attributes:
Strength, Dexterity, Willpower, Intelligence. These are your defenses, as well as the determinants to skills and general checks of derring-do.

Strength and Dexterity are your Physical attributes: You use both to defend against physical attacks (such as getting hit by blades/axes/bullets/tentacles/yer mum). Strength shows how burly you are, how much you can lift and how long you can endure. It acts as a soak bonus. Dexterity shows how nimble you are, how slippery and acrobatic you can be and how fast you can do things. It acts as a defense bonus.

Willpower and Intelligence are your Mental attributes: You can use either to defend against attacks of a more intangible nature (such as fear effects and other such SoDs). Willpower shows your force of personality, how strong you are of spirit and how well you can focus. It acts as a mental soak bonus. Intelligence shows how much you know. This can be book smarts, street smarts, or Giant Frog smarts, as well as determining how good you are with building things and noticing things. It acts as a mental defense bonus.

Most offensive powers will target either Physical or Mental, although there will be those that target a certain attribute.

Strength skills are Survival and Warcraft (the ability to "feel" the general flow of battle/the enemy's power and tactics/yer mum)
Dexterity skills are Stealth and Acrobatics (Tumble, Jump, Balance et. al.)
Willpower skills are Concentration and Presence (Bluff, Diplomacy, Intimidate)
Intelligence skills are Perception and Knowledge


A starting character gets 8 points to divvy up between the four stats, with no more than 4 going to one stat. Characters get +1 to a stat of their choice every 2 levels and a +1 to every stat on tier advancement.

Choose Race:

There are 13 races in 5th Edition, each with their own defining stereotype characteristic:

* Elves are Inspiring
* Hobgoblins are Careful
* Orcs are Angry
* Goblins are Sneaky
* Drow are Treacherous
* Dwarves are Willful
* Kobolds are Clever
* Warforged are Tireless
* Gnomes are Creative
* Humans are Adaptable
* Tieflings are Cruel
* Halflings are Tricky
* Gith are Stoic

That being said, each race has it's own special ability, granted at character level 1.

Elf: Inspiration - If you successfully hit an enemy with a power, your allies get a (non-stacking) bonus until your next turn.
Hobgoblin: Surety - A Hob may spend an action/go down ticks in the initiative to auto-succeed on his next action. Usable X times a session.
Orc: Hotblood - An Orc may take a negative penalty to their defenses to gain an equal bonus to his attacks for [character level] rounds. Toggle
Goblin: Inconspicuous - A Goblin blends in with the chaos. Pseudo-invisibility, have to make Perception checks to notice/remember the character. Toggle.
Drow: Scoundrel - If you successfully hit an enemy with a power, their allies get a (non-stacking) penalty until your next turn.
Dwarf: Obstinacy - A Dwarf may force an action directed at him to auto-fail or delay the effects of it for [character level] rounds. Usable X times a session
Kobold: Sleight - A Kobold may swap out a power he just used for one that he has of equal or lesser tier, using the same roll (if necessary). Usable X times a session.
Warforged: Ceaseless - A Warforged may take an extra action before he would die/critically fail a task, after which the effect takes hold. Usable X times a session. (Explanation: If the Warforged gets tagged with a Charm/Death effect/gets his final skill challenge strike, he can make one last action before he's Charmed/Killed/Epic Fails).
Gnome: Creativity - A Gnome may swap out one tag on a power he's used for another one of the same class. Usable X times a session. (Explanation: He could change a [Fire] damage move into a [Cold] damage move, or a Target: Single to a Target: All)
Human: Versatility - A Human may choose to use any racial bonus. He can only use a bonus once. Usable X times a session.
Tiefling: Affront - If a Tiefling is targeted by a detrimental effect, she may elect to act immediately before the target's action. Usable X times a session.
Halfling: Cunning - A Halfling can distract and confuse people. Targets have to make Presence check to recognize what the halfling just did. Toggle. (Explanation: some kind of epic bluff ability, so the Halfling can get away with stabbing a dude in the face or telling an obvious lie without the target realizing it.)
Gith: Focus - A Gith may elect to take a penalty to her attacks to gain an equal bonus to her defenses for [character level] rounds. Toggle.

Sounds fun doesn't it? Now we move on to:

Choose a Class:

There are 13 base classes, each class is comprised of major ability sets called Paths. Every class gains 2 Paths at level 1, and a third at level 6. Each Path contains 3 life choices, which unlock new abilities at certain intervals. The classes are:

Bard: (Buffing/Cursing)
Hero: (Direct Damage/Tanking)
Ranger: (Direct Damage/Transformation)
Druid: (Pets/Battlefield Control)
Necromancer: (Pets/Cursing)
Paladin: (Tanking/Buffing)
Psion: (Buffing/Direct Damage)
Monk: (Cursing/Transformation)
Artificer: (Buffing/Battlefield Control)
Elementalist: (Direct Damage/Cursing)
Warlock: (Direct Damage/Pets)
Rogue: (Direct Damage/Cursing)
Gish: (Transformation/Tanking)

[God_of_Awesome]

I always liked how 4e try to seperate the power sources or pretended too; Arcane, Divine, Primal, Psionic, Martial (Could be subsumed into Psionic), Elemental (In stead of Shadow), Eldritch (IE, Fae, Farplane, Aliens). I would like that to have a mechanical effect.

On the other hand, it's propably wise to keep the same attribute instead of subsuming Con into Str and combing Cha and Wis into Wil.

I know your way is possibly better, I'm just suggesting.

[Mask_De_H]

Basic Outline of Class Paths:

So, each Class gets two main paths level 1, and another at level 6. They scale like Tome feats, I assume in both damage and options, and have 4 levels. [A] denotes Advanced Path.

Bard:
Performance Path
- Inspiring
- Technical
- Passionate

Path of Tales
- Bawdy
- Epic
- Moral

[A] Legends Path
- Legend of Steel
- Legend of Courage
- Legend of Cunning

Hero:
Path of Fighting
- Strength
- Speed
- Skill

Path of Protection
- Iron Body
- Stalwart Defense
- Baffling Entrapment

[A] Path of Mastery
- Enlightenment
- Weaponmaster
- Slayer of Men

Ranger:
Path of the Avenger
- Shrike
- Mongoose
- Spider

Path of Nature
- Skies
- Lands
- Seas

[A] Path of Gaia
- Stormbringer
- Summerborne
- Winterborne

Druid:
Path of Empathy
- It's Cold Outside
- It's Hot Outside
- It's A Jungle Out There

Path of Animal Ken
- Murder of Crows
- Da Bear
- Wolfpack

[A] Path of Natural Mystery
- Cockatrice
- Shambling Mound
- Manticore

Necromancer:
Path of the Grave
- Skeleton Warriors
- Shambling Zombies
- Harrying Shades

Path of Torment
- Crushing Despair
- Gleeful Savagery
- Toll of the Damned

[A] Path of Unlife
- Ghoul Pack
- Howling Spectres
- Wight Squad

Paladin:
Path of Endurance
- Patience
- Radiance
- Temperance

Path of Retribution
- Smiting
- Zeal
- Castigation

[A] Path of Absolution
- Righteous Fury
- Divine Favor
- Martyrdom

Psion:
Path of the Ego
- Psychometabolism
- Cognitive Dissonance
- Mental Block

Path of the Id
- Telekinesis
- Pyrokinesis
- Cryokinesis

[A] Path of the Overman
- Psychoanalysis
- Mind over Matter
-

Monk:
Path of the Empty Fist
- Crushing Blow
- 8 Trigrams
- Intercepting Fist

Path of Hard Work
- Five Animals
- Empty Body
- Anything Goes

[A] Path of Heaven and Earth
- Dragon and Tiger
- Taiji Form
- Raging Demon

Artificer:
Path of Alchemy
- Potables
- Hazards
- Tuning

Path of Machines
- Greasemonkey
- Clockwork Man
- Steam Punk

[A]Path of SCIENCE!
- Mad Genius
- Theorist
- Quantum Mechanic

Elementalist:
Path of Aether
- Fire
- Air
- Lightning

Path of Terra
- Earth
- Water
- Wood

[A] Path of All
- Keeper of the Void
- Terra Nova
- Aethersoul

Warlock:
Path of Conjuring
- Imp
- Succubus
- Barbezu

Path of Invocation
- Hellfire
- Uttercold
- Shadow

[A] Path of Eldritch Might
- Planar Rending
- Flickerform
- Darkspeech

Rogue:
Path of Execution
- Sneak Attack
- Skirmish
- Dirty Fighting

Path of Charm
- Banter
- Fearmonger
- Espionage

[A] Path of the Trickster
- Lovable Scoundrel
- Death Dealer
- Street Saint

Gish:
Path of Second Sight
- Transmutation
- Spellwarp
- Spiritblow

Path of the Veil
- Countermagic
- Prescience
- Warding

Path of the Sevenfold Art
- Wild Magic
- Twin Arcana
- Veiled Arcana

[Orion]

You almost certainly don't want attack stats in this game.

Writing down "Monk: Crushing Blow" on your sheet should almost certainly be sufficient investment of resources to, you know, *crush things*. That *implies* that you're strong, shouldn't *depend* on it.

The only way I would consider a Physical Attack/Mental Attack *stat choice* would be if literally EVERY PATH was 50% physical and 50% mental. Which is totally possible. You could make your "swording" path come with a mix of moves which require extreme conditioning and moves which require psychological insight. You could make your Fire Channeling path have spells which require *concentration* and spells which require *health*.

But that seems like more trouble than it's worth. Plus, you'd have to kill "Strength" and "Skill" as hero selectables.

[God_of_Awesome]

Yeah, but at that point you stop being Dungeons and Dragons and starts being something else entirely.

[CatharzGodfoot]

Yeah, but at that point you stop being Dungeons and Dragons and starts being something else entirely.

Behold as the next official edition does away with attack stats.

But seriously, defense & utility attributes should be enough. So long as agility lets you dodge and sneak, you don't need it making you better at stabbin'.

[Jilocasin]

Yeah, but at that point you stop being Dungeons and Dragons and starts being something else entirely.

You say that as though 4th edition wasn't something else entirely as well.

[God_of_Awesome]

Yeah, but at that point you stop being Dungeons and Dragons and starts being something else entirely.

You say that as though 4th edition wasn't something else entirely as well.

And why do you think a great deal many people dislike it?

[Orion]

God of Awesome,

Look, if you want to have attack stats you can *totally do that*. Have players grab abilities freely off a giant list. At that point the first step of making a fire mage isn't writing "fire mage" on your sheet, it's writing "Intelligence:4", and then picking out a bunch of fire spells.

You could optionally have a thing where after picking enough fire spells you got declared a "Fire Master" and got +4 to diplomacy with efreet and immunity to nonmagic fires.

But once you have a game where chargen demands you to write "fire mage" on your sheet and sign up for a lifetime supply of more and better fire spells it is straight up bullshit to find out that you can't use any of your class features effectively because you don't have Intelligence.

[Jilocasin]

And why do you think a great deal many people dislike it?

Well, I'd say that the people who dislike it don't necessarily hate it because 'it's not D&D', they hate it because it's boring and the mechanics fail spectacularly at what they're supposed to be good at in the first place. Combat.

The only good 4E game I played was good because it was literally 90% MTP. We had maybe one encounter every three or four sessions, and the encounters were kept short (somehow). That's all I'm gonna say. It's nothing new, and I don't want to interrupt the thread.

[Orion]

Look, if you really want to add to your chargen write-up "Step Three: Set 'Suck=0'," I guess I can't dissuade you. Happy gaming!

[Mask_De_H]

@Orion: Yeah, I'll get right on removing the attack stat stuff. That makes sense and makes doing playtesting and attack calculations simpler too.

@GoA: Dude, you came from /tg/ to the TGD. You know how we (fa/tg/uys and Denners) get about 4e. That, and there's no "Dungeons and Dragons" rider on this, even though it came from Lago's thread. Hell, if I wanted I could make the races people born under different signs or something.

[God_of_Awesome]

Except for Orion, who I think maybe is insulting me (I honestly don't know), I find you all have a good point. Although, Mask, I mostly refer to this board hatred of 4e. /tg/ has honestly gotten over it. At least when I'm on. Really, that place has fucking tides and if you disagree I say you were there during the high tide.

I guess I'm not disagreein' that hard though. Just disagreein' to be devil's advocate really.

[CatharzGodfoot]

Path of Tales
- Bawdy
- Epic
- Moral

Sounds amazing.

[Mask_De_H]

Double postan in my own thread. Prototype of a path setup.

Bardic Path of Performance:
"What I do is an art, not a science"

The Bardic tradition teaches first and foremost the art of performance. Whether through song, dance, or slam poetry the Bard's main way of interacting with his audience is through performing. Choose one of these three paths at level 1. It starts at Path Level 1. At levels 4, 7, and 10, you advance one Path Level, gaining the given ability.

Inspiring:
"I do what I do to make people happy is all."[/b]

This Path focuses on bolstering the morale of his comrades, and through that, giving them newfound wells of strength.

L1: As a standard action, the Bard may begin to perform in a way that inspires courage in his comrades. All allies within [arbitrary unit of measure] gain a +2 bonus to damage and soak rolls for the encounter.

L2: The Bard gains the ability to cow an enemy with seemingly overwhelming odds. Gain a mental attack of damage 1+path level and Accuracy +2+path level. If it hits, the target takes a -1 bonus to soak rolls for each ally the bard has (max -7) [Special Note: Personal bonuses cap at +7 and personal penalties cap at -7. Therefore, you can't kick somebody off the RNG, no matter how hard you crank the numbers.]

L3:

L4: If an ally within [arbitrary unit of measure] fails to defend against a mental attack, the Bard may, as an immediate action, make a mental attack of damage - and Accuracy +2+path level against the target. If it hits, the target's attack is negated. [Special Note: Damage - means it doesn't do damage.]

Technical:
"The greatest giants of artistry propel me forward."

This Path focuses on personal betterment, making the Bard a paragon of perfection.

L1: As a standard action, the Bard may begin performing in a way honed through constant drilling. She gains a +2 bonus to her accuracy and defense until the end of the encounter. Usable once per encounter.

L2: The Bard has learned how to coach her allies to better performances. Allies that go after her in the initiative order gain a +2 bonus to their accuracy and defense.

L3

L4: The Bard gains a 4 target mental attack of damage - and accuracy +2+path level. If it hits, the targets are awed by the precise technicality of the performance. They are compelled to move to within 5 feet of the bard, forgoing any and all attacks until they get to her. Once they kneel, they do not attack unless attacked by others.

Passionate:
"I give my heart up to the craft, she treats me as a lover."[/b]

This Path focuses on the Bard giving herself up to the art, allowing her to perform the impossible.

L1: If the Bard successfully hits an opponent with an attack or offensive power, she gains a +2 bonus to defense and soak rolls until the end of the encounter. Usable once per encounter.

L2 If the Bard would be given a bonus from an ally, the Bard also gains +1 to damage and accuracy for each bonus received. (Max +7)

L3

L4 The Bard gains an aura of general intensity. All allies within the aura gain a +2 bonus to attack and defense, whereas all enemies gain -2 to accuracy and soak.

Thoughts? I'm working off of a +/- 7 bound on the RNG, with the defense bonuses working out to +4 max at chargen, and a net +1 to a stat from a class. Negatives are possible through debuffs, and possibly through class.

[Username17]

There's no pressing reason to have bonuses to attack and defenses scale with level at all. The RNG doesn't change, so if you set a scaling bonus to be something that you'd find acceptable at low level, it will be RNG breaking when it hits higher level. If you set it to something acceptable at high level it will be a bullshit waste of time at low level.

The logic of spending a round buffing the party is that you lose an action and then your party's actions are sufficiently better that after a certain number of subsequent actions you're breaking even and then you pull ahead. For a larger bonus to the attack roll to make sense, you'd have to expect a shorter combat.

-Username17

[Mask_De_H]

Okay, that makes sense. As long as you keep the bonus from breaking the RNG, then it doesn't need to scale. Do offensive abilities need to scale then?

[Ice9]

Damage needs to scale if HP/Soak/whatever scales. Which it probably should, because while the RNG might stay the same, most people don't want fighting Cthulu to actually be the same as fighting Goblins.

Which is somewhat of an interesting point - one the one hand, you want your RNG and related numbers to stay consistent through the whole span of levels. And if you accomplish that perfectly, you could just not change the numbers at all and have the same result. But on the other hand, people want high-level to feel different than low level. If it becomes too obvious that you could have just renamed "Orc Footsoldier" to "Elemental Titan" and "Spear Poke" to "Demonslaying Lance of the Heavens" and gotten the same result, it loses something - IMO at least.

For example, I actually liked the fact that attack bonuses went off the RNG in 3E, so that at high levels outright missing was rare and the real factor was how much you could power-attack for. Maybe not ideal, but at least you actually felt more competent at higher levels; in 4E, you've always got the same chance to hit (actually, slightly less at high levels), and it's just not the same.

[CatharzGodfoot]

Okay, that makes sense. As long as you keep the bonus from breaking the RNG, then it doesn't need to scale. Do offensive abilities need to scale then?

I think the point is that your attacks and defenses already scale by level, so things which modify them should not.

[Mask_De_H]

Leveling:
Japanese Title: Those Things You Poop in a Sock For

As it has been said numerous times before, level 10 in D&D is where the train pulls into Crazytown and nobody can stop it. That being said, and because people like playing within a few level ranges while still getting real fuck you power, 5th Edition has been truncated into 10 levels. There are four tiers, each sectioning off a specific range of power.

Levels 1-3: Adventurer Tier. This is the point where your characters are plucky young snots wanting to make their mark in the surrounding hamlets. You're safely within the top 25% of your given race's awesome quotient. Examples: Samwise Gamgee, Robin Hood after his Bowldering, and Harry Potter.

Levels 4-6: Heroic Tier. This is the point where your characters are local legends who have left their mark within a region. Bitches love you, nobles want to be you, and you are rapidly becoming more than ordinary. You're safely within the top 5% of your given race's awesome quotient. Examples: The Goddamn Batman, Logen Ninefingers, Luke Skywalker.

Levels 7-9: Paragon Tier. This is the point where your characters are the talk of a country. You and a few of your buddies can take on an army Dynasty Warriors style and have about a 75% shot of winning. You're the top 1% of 2% of your race's awesome quotient. Examples: Gilgamesh, Kenshiro, Kratos, every Shonen anime protagonist ever.

Level 10: Epic Tier. This is the point where you kick reason to the curb and go beyond the impossible. You are known across the world as unto gods. You eat lightning and shit thunder. You are the patron being of your race's awesome quotient. Examples: Hercules, Superman, Goku.

Every level except 1st, you gain +1 to a stat of your choice. At 1st level, you gain +1 to a stat dependent on your class choice. Every time you gain a tier, you get a +1 to all of your stats. Each level (except 1st), you gain +1 "BAB"

Combat:
Japanese Title: Stabbing Fools 101

12 HP, four wound states, Acronym system forthcoming.
3 - Scuffed -1 to attack and soak
6 - Wounded -2 to attack and soak
9 - Bloodied -3 to attack and soak
12 - Mortal -4 to attack and soak
13+ - Dropped. Can be CdG'd.
24+ - Killed. DED dead.

Weapons: (beta)

All weapons fall into one of eight overarching types: Axe, Sword, Fist, Bow, Gun, Knife, and Staff. From there, they are split into Light, Medium, and Heavy types.

Light Types strike fast and with great accuracy, yet due to their nature, rely more on speed than power. +1 damage, +2 accuracy.

Medium Types are the balanced types, dealing damage and striking true with equal aplomb. +3 damage, +1 accuracy

Heavy Types are brutal weapons, dealing crushing damage at the expense of accuracy. +5 damage, +0 accuracy

Weapon Tables:
Each weapon has an effective range, which is given in squares. Each weapon group has a specific ability native to them as well. A [T] means that they are thrown weapons, and leave your hands when used at a range greater than 1. You may regain your weapon from an enemy as a free action if you engage them.

Axe:
- L Handaxe: Range 1-3[T]
- M Waraxe: Range 1
- H Greataxe: Range 1-2

Fist:
- L Slam: Range 1
- M Gauntlets: Range 1
- H Katars: Range 1

Sword:
- L Rapier: Range 1
- M Longsword: Range 1
- H Greatsword: Range 1-2

Spear:
- L Quarterstaff: Range 1-2
- M Spear: Range 1-3
- H Halberd: Range 1-2

Gun:
- L Pistol: Range 1-6
- M Rifle: Range 2-10
- H Shotgun: Range 1-4

Bow:
- L Crossbow: Range 1-5
- M Longbow: Range 2-12
- H Greatbow: Range 3-15

Knife:
- L Dagger: Range 1-3[T]
- M Butterfly Knife: Range 1
- H Cleaver: Range 1-2[T]

Staff:
- L Wand: Range 1-5
- M Staff: Range 1-3
- H Rod: Range 1-2

Weapon Skills:

(Okay, here's where I'm at an impasse. I don't know whether I want for each weapon to inflict a bonus/penalty to a stat or if they should have some random flavorful ability.)

The Stat Method:
Axe: -1 to opponent's Dex defense
Fist: -1 to opponent's Int defense
Sword: +1 to Strength defense
Spear: +1 to Dex defense
Gun: +1 to Will defense
Bow: -1 to opponent's Will defense
Knife: -1 to opponent's Strength defense
Staff: +1 to Int defense

or:

The Flavor Method:
Axe: Wound (every three "HP" lost) causes Slowing (a la TNE)
Fist: idunno lol
Sword: X turn charge Parry
Spear: X turn charge Whirlwind or "Setting the charge" (if someone enters your threat space, they get AoO'd)
Gun: X turn Luck Domain attack reroll
Bow: X turn ignore terrain/cover or X turn aim and shoot (bonus to hit and damage)
Knife: Wound causes Bleeding (take 1 HP damage every turn)
Staff: X turn charge retributive attack

[ubernoob]

Kratos kills not one, but two gods. I'd argue he's at least level 9. Kratos is just that bad ass.

[Mask_De_H]

I'm assuming Lago meant Tales of Symphonia Kratos, because God of War Kratos not being up in 9 or 10 is criminal.

[Avoraciopoctules]

Kratos is totally awesome. He has Judgement, a spell so pretty you can almost forgive it being comically useless.

He also has WINGS!1! whenever the writers feel that he requires them. Also I recently learned on TVTropes that his "I am evil now" costume is patterned after a Japanese bondage harness. Surely that makes him worth being level 9 at least.

[RobbyPants]

All in all, I like a lot of what I'm reading. The more I think about it, the more I like dropping attack stats. It also makes balancing the RNG easier, as you only have to worry about one stat's swing for defenses rather than one for attack and one for defenses.

On a side note, I'd consider dropping per-session abilities for something more concrete in game terms that the characters can understand an not the players.

[Mask_De_H]

Well, I was thinking of calling each session a Story or an Episode, and having the powers go off of X times an [arbitrary name for session] or once an [arbitrary name for a session]. Or just be At-Wills if I set them up more like Tome Feats.