Top 15 computer RPGs

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Kobajagrande
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Top 15 computer RPGs

Post by Kobajagrande »

Foreword

Some things to take into consideration before chosing reading through:

A top list of any kind is difficult to do. By its nature its constrained, and things which deserve mention will inevitably get left out. For many things on the list, you could build a strong argument why it should replace some game on the list. Its best not to dwell on that. If we tried to make all worthy mentions fit, we would have a list much larger than now.

Then, there is a problem with lists which are not built on a single, well-defined and measured criteria. Lists such as this depend heavily on a mixture of various, uncomparable factors which get together to determine the placing. Sure, it might be possible to quantify and weight it, but, in the end, it is unnecessary, when the main criteria is, in the end, a personal preference.

The numbers don't mean much. From the first draft of the list, there were tons of changes to the placings. Some games change more than 5 places. Some from the lowest third of the list I could actually see in the top. That just says how close the ranks actually are, and that the ultimate place depends on a moment's judgement.

And, most importantly, time takes its toll. Inevitably, memories of some older games get hazy and mixed together. After years have passed, some series combine together and leave a single impression. That's why you'll see both series and single games - especially with the more recent games, you'll see them place individually. After all, the memories of them stand out much more, and its much easier to recall their individual qualities that differs them from the games from the same series.

With that said, agree or disagree, I hope you'll enjoy the:

Kobajagrande's Completely Subjective List of Top 15 Computer RPGs Done Right, Based on Utterly Oppinionated Criteria as to What is Cool About Computer RPGs.

15: Final Fantasy VII

Let me get one thing straight: I don't like FF. I think their gameplay is boring at best, and usually quite irritating. I never got amazed by their storylines. I think the way the plot develops in these games is quite lame. Character building mechanics are also quite horrible and irritating. I hate the fact opponents are just a random mess of acid hallucinations and what people who smokes a shitload of pot thought of as good ideas at the time. And I'm not a big fan of JRPGs as well. I like FF's AMVs and am always amazed by them, but... that's about it.

That said, I know there are a lot of people who actually like them. And its awesome to have something of a such global impact that overcomes national and cultural borders. Its a phenomen which deserves a mention. And even though its one of my least favorite Final Fantasies (meaning I consider it somewhere on the level of "less than shit"), it has been one of the major reasons why FF series has reached such global popularity. Thus, it has earned its place on the list.

14: Gold Box Games

Champions of Krynn. Curse of the Azure Bonds. Pools of Darkness. All in all, almost a dozen games SSI made in the late 80s/early 90s. These games were a blast back then. However, looking back, they haven't passed the test of time well. Even though I like classic games, I don't think I could get myself to play them again. Its not because of outdated graphics - I can still enjoy playing much older games - but the fact that the computer RPG industry has progressed so much with time - literary everything these games do, newer games do better. Which is not the fact with all games of those times - Al-Qadim is not much younger, and is still a fun game to play. However, the Gold Box games have one redeeming factor - their historical value. They are precisely what the RPG was at that time. No other game captured better the spirit of RPG games of those times - the storylines, the way of playing, everything. Thus, they deserve the place on the list thanks to the nostalgia and the fact that they belong to a museum.

13: Might & Magic VI/VII

Here it gets a bit tricky. These games have absolutely no outstanding qualities to mention. They are utterly mediocre, through and through. But still, at the time I played them, something clicked right. Was it the fact that class powers were interesting and were calling you to get them? Was it interesting way you'd graduate from class to class? Interesting quests? The fact that RPG games were not that interesting at the time? The fact that it was set in the world of HOMM3, the BEST GAME OF ALL TIME?? Who knows. But these games did something right, and even if I don't know what it was, I'll take some comfort that its designers don't know either, for they were unable to make any other decent M&M. Still, they did something right, so this is a nod to them. Thanks guys, it was fun playing it.

12: Deus Ex System Shock 2

Deus Ex was great. But to be honest, it would never have existed were it not for System Shock 2. The original System Shock was good, but the sequel was even better. These games showed that RPG elements can be successfuly mixed with other genres, and find their place even in the FPS games. Whenever you play a game that has some RPG elements, think of System Shock 2. Whenever you think how Deus Ex was great, remember System Shock 2. It was a game that made it all possible.

11. Elder Scrolls: Daggerfall

This game was just plain old awesome and overwhelming in its size. You were tossed into a foreign land, and you had to build your own life as you set on to accomplish your quest. You could have worked for the Mage Guild. You could have worked as a mercenary of the Fighter's Guild. You could have been a member of a temple of some god, or of some knightly order, or a thief, or even an assasin. Or you could become a wherewolf, or even vampire. All the different fractions, huge gameworld and possibilities contained simply blew away the fact that dungeons were irritating due to their size, or the obvious fact that most things were created through some random generator. The moment you would step out of that first dungeon, find yourself outside, and realize you don't really know where to go, you were captivated. Daggerfall was awesome, and Morrowind and Oblivion, as popular as they were, just never managed to get that feeling of being overwhelmed by the size right.

10. Knights of the Old Republic

It was Star Wars, and it was a GOOD Star Wars game - something that didn't happen since X-Wing: Alliance (some say Tie Fighter). AND, it was an RPG. All those things combined, how to not place it on the list?

9. Arcanum: Of Steamworks and Magick Obscura

What is the first thing you do when you survive the crash of an airship that was just attacked by half-ogre aviation? You ignore the ramblings of a strangely-dressed guy, and, with skillful eyes, you start scanning the wreckage, picking up parts and combining them into a weapon.

Arcanum had it all. It had guns. It had magic. It had a world-shattering force to fight against. It had mysteries to be unraveled, strange opponents to confront. And it had guns. Non-linear, problems solvable through other means than combat, and an setting which combined elements of magic and technolgy so well that it would suck you in with every minute, Arcanum is really a rare gem of computer RPG design. It is a pitty it was never developed into a sequel, and that the whole game just faded out. It did not deserve such fate.

8. Knights of the Old Republic II: The Sith Lords

KOTOR 2 is an unfinished mess of a game. Everywhere you turn, you see something unfinished. It is amazing to even think of that guy who ordered the game to be released: "You know that half of a game you have? Print it and send it to retailers".

So why the hell is it here? Because KOTOR is here as well. And, unfinished as it is, KOTOR 2 is still much better than the original was. Its storyline is better, the characters were better, its bad guys were better, the way you'd develop the NPCs was better, the way you'd create weapons was better... And actually, thanks to the modding community, mods were made that help the endgame not be such a complete mess and actually have some sense to it. It doesn't fix everything wrong with how unfinished it is, and that is a pitty. But it does show the potential for greatness the game had. If it was complete, KOTOR 2 would jump to a high place on this list. This way, it sadly stays somewhere in the middle, like its development status.

7. Diablo II

This game got onto this list just because it was a great game. The awesomeness of Diablo II comes just from the single factor: its a great game. It doesn't have any storyline, character interaction, or alternative problem solving. But, as you slash through the hordes of deamons, you don't care, because its just that good. Its so good that, if you walk into a bar and say "hey guys, lets play Diablo II", people will say "yeah, that's a great game, let's play it". And it will stay so, at least until the Diablo III comes out.

6. Baldur's Gate Planescape: Torment

Baldur's Gate should have been on this list. Its a game that, single-handedly revitalized RPG genre. Its a game that, single-handedly, got people to remember the fun they had playing AD&D. Hell, it was a game that got many into AD&D in the first place.

Still, like a sidkick who overshadows the main character, Planescape pushed Baldur's Gate off this list. Planescape took out all the slightly bad parts of Baldur's Gate and kept only the good ones. When people thought that BG was the as good an RPG as it could be, Nameless One and Mort showed that it could be even better. It never got to be as popular as the BG, but Planescape can rest easily on the sixth place of this list: you've done well, Planescape.

5. The Witcher

The youngest game on this list, The Witcher is awesome in different ways than most other RPGs. Where other RPGs concentrate on building characters, Witcher gives a simple system which provides an engaging, and fun gameplay. While other RPGs seek to immerse the player through storyline, The Witcher does it through excellent directing, and a great screenplay. The silent scene of the funeral at the beginning of the game is an example of great directing - the feeling of brotherhood and friendship among the witchers is portrayed so effectively that many film directors could learn from it. And the way screenplay is built, often basing the important character lines on seemingly unimportant remarks given before shows just how much care was put into the story aspect of this game.

Some examples:
First third of the game:
Guard: They say Witchers carry two swords, one for men, the other for monsters
Geralt: They are both for monsters

At the end of the game:
Main bad guy, as Geralt raises the silver sword to strike him down: but... That one's for monsters...
Geralt: *stab*

Prologue:
Evil guy Professor keeps two witchers at bay with his crossbow: They say Witchers are so skilled they can block bolts in flight. He shoots one of them: Just another legend...

Last third of the game:
Professor, as he is cornered by Geralt, suddenly fires a crossbow bolt at him, Geralt blocks it in flight as he approaches for the now inevitable kill: So it was true after all
4. Fallout & Fallout 2

Actually, I'm just going to phone this one in. Its Fallout. Enough said.

3. Baldur's Gate II: Shadow of Amn

Speaking of phoning in, this one gets the same treatment. Everyone knows why BG2 should get a high place on any top RPG lists.

2. Darklands

I already said that, when making the list, games switched their places a lot of times. Well, that part of the list is done. When I begun the list, I already knew what the first two places were, and that didn't change until the end. And, probably, it won't ever change.

Because Darklands is one of those rare gems that transcends time itself. When it was first out, people thought it was ahead of its time. But now, when they look at it, they realize the game so good could only have been created in the golden age of computer games.

Darklands owes much to its setting. The game plays out in medieval Germany - the way a pesant of that time would imagine it - with evil robber knights, strange alchemists, priests calling upon the power of the saints, and of course, deamons straight from hell, the witches that worship them on their Black Sabbaths, and, of course, the devil-worshipping Knights Templar and their lord Baphomet. Oh, add Dragons ravaging countryside, Kobolds taking over the mines, and Wild Hunt being called upon you. The setting was so well-planned out that nothing really comes close to it.

And the open-ended gameplay was a blast. With no set goal, you'd begin on the side streets of some city, sleeping in the park by day, fighting thugs at night, slowly getting more wealthy, and becoming a local hero. When you finally get strong enough to venture out into the dangerous countryside, the real world would open in front of you, as you would explore the countrside for days, looking to see interesting random encounter would come out next - or maybe, what is in that castle, or village ahead? And as you do, you would find youself drawn more and more to your god given mission, of combating the great evil.

Trully a brilliant game, well designed in every single way. Even now, after years of playing it, I can still get a notebook to serve as logbook, create a party, arm myself with Essence of Grace and Arabian Fire, and head into the world of Darklands with the same vigour. Because, as the game says, in medieval Germany, reality is more horrifying than fantasy.

And...

Yo, Darklands, I'ma really happy for ya, and I'm gonna let you finish, but

1. The Quest For Glory Series

Is the best RPG of all time. OF ALL TIME
!

There is not much to say about these games except they are a pure work of love. From the first moment, when your recent graduate of the Fameous Adventurer's Correspondence School for Heroes walks into Spielburg, you are set on the path of something rare and beautiful. And through the Arabic lands of Shapier, African Tarna, Slavic Mordavia, and Greek Silmaria, your character will grow as a man, make enemies that will hunt him, allies that will follow him, and friendships that will last for a lifetime. And when your hero of Spielburg, the Prince of Shapier, Hero of Tarna and Mordavia finally makes His Final Bow in the land of Silmaria, you will get that melancholic feeling that something great is over, mixed with the satisfaction of knowing that you've seen through something that was worth witnessing and which has, in a way, made you better for seeing it.

There are no words to explain how great these games were, and still are. The designers managed to find the essence heroic fantasy genre. Whether its comical, light-hearted first game, or the somber, serious fourth, every game leaves you with a warm feeling of satisfaction that you did something heroic, that you are a hero.

And that is what roleplaying is all about. Its about playing a role, and Quest For Glory series draw you in that role so well, that, when your Paladin is offered the choice at the end of the fifth game, it comes completely natural to you to refuse the throne.

And what comes after that, is probably the most rewarding ending of any game ever made.
Last edited by Kobajagrande on Sat Jan 30, 2010 1:50 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by Neeeek »

No Chrono Trigger? Hmm.
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Post by MGuy »

I think FFTactic's story and characters trump FF VII's I think it should be representative of the FF series on this particular list.
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Post by TOZ »

Unless I am mistaken, he's talking PC RPGs. Chrono Trigger and Tactics were console RPGs. FFVII is only on here because it had a PC port I imagine.
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Post by Josh_Kablack »

Note - I'm only listing games I have personally played
Note - I came of age in the Apple II era
Note - I consider the Final Fantasy series a Console RPG - and thus distinct from Computer RPGs - otherwise the Tactics games would be here and a lot of hate of X.

1. Ultima V. Hands down the best computer RPG I have ever played.
2 Wizardy I. This half-baked port of 1e AD&D paved the way for just about all future computer RPGs, and I owe my entire involvement in RPGs to a pirate copy that fell into my hands in my tween years.
3. Civilization II. It takes a stretch to count Civ as an RPG, but I'll do it. I'll diss on the more recent editions too.
4. Heroes of Might and Magic (any) - an awesometastic blend of Tactics, Strategy and storytelling. RP elements are minimal, but character advancement is frequently key.
5. Ultima IV - Not as good as V, but the first computer RPG to have a plot of more than "seek out the evil wizard who is at the bottom of a deep dungeon and kill him". The fact that lying, cheating and bragging in game could undo prior quest objectives made it a neat example of forced roleplaying.
6. Wasteland - Noteable for being post-apocalyptic in setting rather than fantasy. I hear they finally released the sequel a few years back, and I mean to check that out sometime.
7. Other Wizardies (any) - I've played 2,3,5, and 8. The series is always solid.
8. Omega - A game where you "roleplay" an office drone with the interesting assignment of writing optimized code for autonomous cybertanks which compete in various arenas. The complexity of a game of competitive programming was too much for most folks, and the ability to just buy upgrades for you tanks made the advancement part of the game trivial - but the competitive team battles in the sandbox you unlocked were crazy-go-nuts if you had good nerd friends to compete against. Someone should remake this in a simplified form for the age of internet gaming.
9. PS Torment. This thin glimpse of what the 90s could have offered if only decision trees and RP aspects of games had continued to receive the same advancement that graphics and shiny did suffers horribly from the taint of the "mechanics" that were 2e.
10. Honorable Mention: Geneforge from http://www.spiderwebsoftware.com . Probably belongs higher on this list, but I only played the free portion and never finished the game - due to being really broke when I played it and then having work and D&D and stuff to occupy my time once I had money.
Last edited by Josh_Kablack on Sun Jan 31, 2010 2:24 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by Juton »

Good lists Kobajagrande & Josh_Kablack, I'm glad I'm not the only one who remembers Darklands, Quest for Glory and some of the earlier Ultimas.

I'd be remise if I didn't chime in with these though:

Ultima Underworld I & II - Despite being some of the first 3D RPGs these still managed to have plots and actual role playing. The combat system is great, even now a days newer games don't really have a better interface for swinging a sword. They also had the best automap of any game I've ever played.

Betrayal at Krondor - Because this game came out in the early nineties the graphics are a bit dated, but the real star of the show was the game's text which was overseen by Raymond E. Feist. While the main plot is good it's all the detail put into the side plots and put into just the world itself that makes narrative one of the strongest of any CRPG I've played.

Realms of Arkania series - Second only to Darklands, this trilogy really conveyed a feeling of playing in a medieval or dark ages setting. Also like Darklands it was one of only a few fantasy CRPGs set in a low fantasy world, not flying or teleporting.

Ultima VII Parts I and II - Not to go on to much about the Ultima series but for these two games are near the pinnacle of sandbox games I've played. These games had good plots, the NPC interaction was also great because most of them had unique dialogue.
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Post by Doom »

Gosh, no AutoDuel, the Car Wars PC RPG on any list? This too was an open ended (mostly) RPG, with a large game world, and main quest line buried quite well for the era.
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Post by RobbyPants »

Final Fantasy 1 and Dragon Warrior will always have a place in my heart. Of course, that probably shows my age a bit. They were really my introduction into RPGs.

I also have to agree about Quest for Glory (at least the first one). That game is a lot of fun.
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Post by Maxus »

RobbyPants wrote: I also have to agree about Quest for Glory (at least the first one). That game is a lot of fun.
+Billion.

I have to say that I like the Quest for Glory 2 remake a ton. I haven't seen a combat system so, so aweomse ever.

Not even Ocarina of Time was this much fun. It may be because there are enemies which are not...puzzle enemies. They have to be out-fought and out-thought, rather than just attacking the weak point.
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Post by Koumei »

1. Moraffe's World
2. Ultima Underworld
3. Castle of the Winds

List ends here.
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Post by Josh_Kablack »

Doom314 wrote:Gosh, no AutoDuel, the Car Wars PC RPG on any list? This too was an open ended (mostly) RPG, with a large game world, and main quest line buried quite well for the era.
Mount Flamethrower on rear
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Win Game.

Does not merit a spot on my top 10 list.
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Post by Lago PARANOIA »

Kobe wrote: I never got amazed by their storylines. I think the way the plot develops in these games is quite lame.
Here's my opinion on the Final Fantasy series:

The only Final Fantasies that had what you could call a good storyline is 4, 6, Tactics, and if you're willing to stretch it FFX. Unfortunately, FF4's storyline gets shaky about the time you infiltrate the Tower of Zot the second time and completely goes off the rails about the time the Dark Crystal arc is resolved (fortunately it's near the end of the game). FF6... it doesn't so much become an immersion-breaking mess as FF4's so much as just die out. I like the second part of the game better because it's more about character development and the themes of nursing the flames of hope, but the first part of the game was able to do BOTH so I understand people getting upset.

Final Fantasy Tactics has a good storyline, but it's really thick at times. A lot of developments you won't get without frequently referring to the in-game encyclopedia and it becomes soul-crushingly depressing near the end.

Final Fantasy X... I really don't know how to feel about that game. Every instinct tells me that the story was just not very good, but I can't put my finger on the source of malaise. The scenery was gorgeous and immersive, they took a lot of care into constructing the background and locales and NPCs, and it actually felt like I was exploring a world as opposed to just a random collection of locales--the biggest weakness of the Final Fantasy setting IMO.

It's sort of like Star Trek III. It had all of the elements for greatness but it just didn't work out.

Not so great Final Fantasies:

Final Fantasy 7 would've been an awesome game. And for the first sixth of it, it was. The city of Midgar was an awesome adventuring locale with lots of flavor and history to it and the storyline was genuinely exciting and original. But then that rat-fucker Sephiroth shows up and the game just completely goes down the drain.

Final Fantasy V... uhm. The game's biggest weakness, by far, is the claustrophobic cast. Final Fantasy V could've been a LOT better if they had five party members (and developed the characters they did have better) and the villains had a bigger presence from round one. I mean, FFV wanted so desperately to paint Butz as a lovable, world-wandering rogue but they missed so many damn opportunities to do so. They also wanted Faris to be the masculine pirate-princess who discovers her feminity while Lenna grows out of her naive princess healer girl characterization. But the writing just doesn't deliver. The only character in that game that I would say that was done well is Galuf. Which is just awful, since you compare Final Fantasy IV and VI and they have a WIDE range of memorable characters.

This issue of a bland cast and unthreatening antagonists would rear its ugly head again in Final Fantasy 8 again but with some brand new problems. I think Final Fantasy 8 is the worst mainstream Final Fantasies of the 16-bit and beyond era, though I haven't played FF9 or FF12.
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Post by CatharzGodfoot »

Did anyone else play way too muchImage?

Or perhaps a bit of Image?

Maybe not great games, but a lot of fun.
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Post by RandomCasualty2 »

Daggerfall over Oblivion and Morrowind? That just doesn't make sense to me.

Of the four Elder Scrolls games, I easily thought Daggerfall was the weakest and most boring. The dungeon design was ridiculously convoluted and the game as a whole generally just sucked.

I also have to agree with Koumei about Ultima Underworld. That game really blew my mind the first time I played it. By modern standards it's really primitive and sucky, but back then when you were dealing with RPGs with square dungeons like Eye of the Beholder and Wizardry, the 3D aspect of the game was incredible.

Also, I'd probably put the X-Com series on there too.
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Post by Username17 »

Darklands can lick my taint. It doesn't matter how good your ideas are if the game keeps crashing and you charge people for patches that don't even keep the wild hunt from hard crashing the game.

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Post by Murtak »

Ambermoon

I couldn't believe how enormous and beautiful the gameworld was when I played this game. Story and gameplay were good, but not spectacular - but the amazing 3D texture-mapped world and the gorgeous soundtrack were years ahead of their time. I think the english translation took ages though, so it is not exactly well-known outside of Germany.
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Post by RobbyPants »

Maxus wrote:
RobbyPants wrote: I also have to agree about Quest for Glory (at least the first one). That game is a lot of fun.
+Billion.

I have to say that I like the Quest for Glory 2 remake a ton. I haven't seen a combat system so, so aweomse ever.
Yeah, that's the one I was thinking about; the VGA point-and-click version. I agree on the combat system. Everything I'd seen before was turn-based.
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Post by MGuy »

Lago PARANOIA wrote:
Kobe wrote: I never got amazed by their storylines. I think the way the plot develops in these games is quite lame.
Here's my opinion on the Final Fantasy series:

The only Final Fantasies that had what you could call a good storyline is 4, 6, Tactics, and if you're willing to stretch it FFX. Unfortunately, FF4's storyline gets shaky about the time you infiltrate the Tower of Zot the second time and completely goes off the rails about the time the Dark Crystal arc is resolved (fortunately it's near the end of the game). FF6... it doesn't so much become an immersion-breaking mess as FF4's so much as just die out. I like the second part of the game better because it's more about character development and the themes of nursing the flames of hope, but the first part of the game was able to do BOTH so I understand people getting upset.

Final Fantasy Tactics has a good storyline, but it's really thick at times. A lot of developments you won't get without frequently referring to the in-game encyclopedia and it becomes soul-crushingly depressing near the end.

Final Fantasy X... I really don't know how to feel about that game. Every instinct tells me that the story was just not very good, but I can't put my finger on the source of malaise. The scenery was gorgeous and immersive, they took a lot of care into constructing the background and locales and NPCs, and it actually felt like I was exploring a world as opposed to just a random collection of locales--the biggest weakness of the Final Fantasy setting IMO.

It's sort of like Star Trek III. It had all of the elements for greatness but it just didn't work out.

Not so great Final Fantasies:

Final Fantasy 7 would've been an awesome game. And for the first sixth of it, it was. The city of Midgar was an awesome adventuring locale with lots of flavor and history to it and the storyline was genuinely exciting and original. But then that rat-fucker Sephiroth shows up and the game just completely goes down the drain.

Final Fantasy V... uhm. The game's biggest weakness, by far, is the claustrophobic cast. Final Fantasy V could've been a LOT better if they had five party members (and developed the characters they did have better) and the villains had a bigger presence from round one. I mean, FFV wanted so desperately to paint Butz as a lovable, world-wandering rogue but they missed so many damn opportunities to do so. They also wanted Faris to be the masculine pirate-princess who discovers her feminity while Lenna grows out of her naive princess healer girl characterization. But the writing just doesn't deliver. The only character in that game that I would say that was done well is Galuf. Which is just awful, since you compare Final Fantasy IV and VI and they have a WIDE range of memorable characters.

This issue of a bland cast and unthreatening antagonists would rear its ugly head again in Final Fantasy 8 again but with some brand new problems. I think Final Fantasy 8 is the worst mainstream Final Fantasies of the 16-bit and beyond era, though I haven't played FF9 or FF12.
The cynic in me was totally fine with the depressing tone Tactics took. I actually enjoy when a game's tone can actually set my mood as much as Tactic's did.

I dare say I enjoyed 10. While not the greatest piece ever I didn't find anything really "bad" about it.

Final Fantasy 8 is my most hated of the series (I haven't played the 1 or 2). I don't remember all of it but I do know that my mind was exploding throughout. the Ridiculous Time Travel reveal, the luke warm reactions to everything that happened, underdeveloped characters, an annoying game mechanic for magic. I only played through it once and never visited again.

FF9 IMO was ok. I can't remember every little detail but I remember there was actual character development for the characters that mattered. I'd say beatrice and the steiner (IIRC that's the knight's name) along with the red haired merc didn't get much attention but they got enough to tell everyone what their deal was. Other than that I remember that the villain's motives were hard to follow and I think they only came out in the end, almost as an after thought. So its pretty much par for the course as far as FF BBEGs go.

FFXII Just had too many characters that the game could've gone on without and very little character development. Nothing happens within the scope of the game to actually cause anyone to change. The heroes are ALREADY heroes its just a matter of finding out what's going on. I think the background for the story, the world, was well made and the events leading up the end seem to make sense but all this never makes any actual impact on the characters nor do they have any major impact on these events save for them grabbing some items here and there.

Otherwise I agree with your assessment on everything else.
Last edited by MGuy on Sat Jan 30, 2010 3:12 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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Post by Lago PARANOIA »

MGuy wrote: Final Fantasy 8 is my most hated of the series (I haven't played the 1 or 2). I don't remember all of it but I do know that my mind was exploding throughout. the Ridiculous Time Travel reveal, the luke warm reactions to everything that happened, underdeveloped characters, an annoying game mechanic for magic. I only played through it once and never visited again.
I really hated the characters' dull surprise to all of the relevations. I know that they were trying to go for a more low-key game and that's fine, but when the protagonist is united with his long-lost father who is the president of an invisible utopia and it barely warrants more than an 'oh', I want to strangle some bitches.

This is not the only time this completely spoiled the mood (scenes like the party's reunion with Edea and the revelation that the SEeD school is a giant ego-tripping project by an exiled foreigner stand out) but that is the worst of it. I didn't give up on the game at that point but if there was ever an occasion in a Final Fantasy series where it should've been clear to me that I should just turn the game off and never play it again that was it.
Last edited by Lago PARANOIA on Sat Jan 30, 2010 4:40 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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In short, your entire post is dismissive of not merely my intelligence, but my agency. And I don't mean agency as a player within one of your games, I mean my agency as a person. You do not want me to be informed when I make the fundamental decisions of deciding whether to join your game or buying your rules system.
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Post by Lago PARANOIA »

So let's talk a little bit about the second-best villain of the Final Fantasy series (the first one is obviously Kefka, of course), Golbez.

Golbez was a menacing SOB to an extent rarely seen in the 16-bit era. The had his fingers in the pies of almost everything happening in the first 2/3rds of the game and even though a lot of his villainy is perpetrated by subordinates, he still has a presence in the game that shows you who the Top Dog really was. There was plenty of back-and-forth with him where he always remained one step ahead until the very end but it never felt like Golbez was invincible just for the sake of the plot.

It's too bad about the 'there's someone even bigger and badder behind him' subplot that made him a good guy. But like I said, the last part of the game went completely off the rails so the removal of his spine is consistent with the cavalcade of crap we got afterwords.
Josh Kablack wrote:Your freedom to make rulings up on the fly is in direct conflict with my freedom to interact with an internally consistent narrative. Your freedom to run/play a game without needing to understand a complex rule system is in direct conflict with my freedom to play a character whose abilities and flaws function as I intended within that ruleset. Your freedom to add and change rules in the middle of the game is in direct conflict with my ability to understand that rules system before I decided whether or not to join your game.

In short, your entire post is dismissive of not merely my intelligence, but my agency. And I don't mean agency as a player within one of your games, I mean my agency as a person. You do not want me to be informed when I make the fundamental decisions of deciding whether to join your game or buying your rules system.
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Post by shadzar »

MY top 15 would have to be the 11 SSi games and the 4 in the Xeno series (Saga, Gears)

Honorable mention goes to FRUA because it didn't really have a game, but gave you the gold box engine to create your own game.

Star Ocean: Til the End of Time is knocking hard on Xeno series door to move them, but just something in it is a little off. While it has a good story like Xeno series, it jumps around too much to get where it is going. It might have been the changes in the NA release as opposed to original release.

.hack// would be a contender but it is too all over the place for any of the story having to have watch anime, then play the game, then watch the DVDs with the game, then watch the last few episodes of the anime....then read a mange, then watch another anime, then another manga, and a TV series again to get back to a game.....

If the first 4 games had been able to tell the story without the anime series or the movies that came with it, it would have given it more strength.

Gold box series, simply because D&D and RPG does together like bread and butter for me.


(Now I need to find my collectors edition set of those and mo-slow and play them again.)
Last edited by shadzar on Sat Jan 30, 2010 4:59 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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good read (Note to self Maxus sucks a barrel of cocks.)
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Post by Maxus »

True enough.

Golbez was Evil Overlord, but he was Evil Overlord Classic. The game was much the same--Classic Console RPG.

I haven't played 5, so won't venture an opinion.

I have to agree about Kefka. Crazy, evil...and competently so in both cases.

Sephiroth...I'm actually wondering how that worked. Somehow, Sephiroth managed to convey charisma without doing or being much of anything.

Although there were a few really effective scenes like the slaughter at Shinra headquarters and finding that bigass snake spiked onto a tree.

But...Sephiroth had no discernible quirks or likes or even dislikes. He just did shit. Oh, well, he did stay up for three days straight and have a hardcore psychotic episode...But, still, nothing really that evil or scary or that even gave him much personality.
He jumps like a damned dragoon, and charges into battle fighting rather insane monsters with little more than his bare hands and rather nasty spell effects conjured up solely through knowledge and the local plantlife. He unerringly knows where his goal lies, he breathes underwater and is untroubled by space travel, seems to have no limits to his actual endurance and favors killing his enemies by driving both boots square into their skull. His agility is unmatched, and his strength legendary, able to fling about a turtle shell big enough to contain a man with enough force to barrel down a near endless path of unfortunates.

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Post by Thymos »

Sephiroth conveyed charisma?

I seriously really don't care about FF7 because I find a total of two main characters remotely interesting, being Yuffie and Vincent.

I really found FF7's story to be bad after Midgard. The black temple and the ancients were the only other interesting thing, but they kind of sidelined it.

A really unnoticed rpg that is great is Xenogears. The gameplay is ok, but the story is fantastic. Every single character is well designed I think, and the game's dialogue is also really good. I'm probably a bit biased because it's my favorite game (even if I don't think it's the best game).

Oh, about FFX, it could be because it has some of the worst english voice acting I've ever heard in a game.
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Post by Kobajagrande »

RandomCasualty2 wrote:Daggerfall over Oblivion and Morrowind? That just doesn't make sense to me.
Morrowind and Oblivion just weren't as impressive as Daggerfall was. Daggerfall was the first *WOW* experience. After that, Morrowind was something already seen.
RandomCasualty2 wrote:Also, I'd probably put the X-Com series on there too.
Aye, UFO rocked. But I hated how difficult X-com: Terror from the deep was. Still, I think Jagged Alliance 2 was the best of all those tactical squad games.

@Final Fantasy discussion: as I said, I really don't like Final Fantasy games. Heck, since I pretty much think only the AMVs are consistent redeeming factors of FF series, I'd rather play VIII than VII because of the better eye candy.

That said, FF VI seemed almost to work. The story was ok, and they actually tried developing the story through various scenes, as opposed to just telling the continuation the next time you came into town. But the problem was, it was still Final Fantasy, and all those good things collapsed under the weight of the shit that that label brings.

First, the engine couldn't portray the world satisfactory. Don't remember why I felt so, but I do remember I did. I think that Imperial Capital City just didn't feel right. Then, there were those godawful monsters. Not only did the random encounter system and need for heavy grinding ruin the story, but the worse thing is the random nature of those monsters was completely destroying any sense of immersion. I mean, the game tries to make you believe that you're fighting against Evil Empire. But in the actual game, what I see is fighting against some green snots. The defining moment of shittiness was when you inflitrate the Heart of the Empire Continent, and, instead of imperial robot/patrol you meet... A mono-legged guy hanging from an umbrela. Why, god, why.

And the second act of the game was just phoned in. Really, that's the case with endings of all FF games, especially apparent at the moment you gain Ultimate Mode of Transport, which is the designer's keyword for "We're sick and tired of writing plot, you do some shit and then get to the endgame". FF6 tried to work in that mode, but it was just not enough. I mean, its obvious it was supposed to be the story about people finding hope when all hope fades, just... In the end, it didn't deliver. Maybe because there were too much characters. Or maybe they just phoned it in.

And Kefka was good, because he did what a villain should do. He was amusing enough to leave a lasting impression, and he was content to stay in the background and appear sporadically, leaving the main characters play out their parts.

As for FF9, I remember thinking how Pixar should take the general concepts, throw out the unnecessary parts (like, 2/3), and it would make a wonderful cartoon.
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Post by Roy »

RobbyPants wrote:Final Fantasy 1 and Dragon Warrior will always have a place in my heart. Of course, that probably shows my age a bit. They were really my introduction into RPGs.

I also have to agree about Quest for Glory (at least the first one). That game is a lot of fun.
I'm probably younger than you, and didn't really 'get' FF1 the first time I played it but the first Dragon Warrior? That was some awesome shit at the time.
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