This is the internet

ubernoob · Post by **ubernoob** » Tue May 04, 2010 12:01 pm

On the internet, we can't see you. We don't know if you're black, white, asian, or whatever. We don't know if you're male, female, or something in between. And frankly, the only time we give two shits about any of it is so we know which pronoun to address you by. Having a penis or vagina or dark or light skin does NOT make you different on the internet because we won't fucking even know unless YOU bring that shit up.

Seriously, I'm seriously considering addressing everyone as 'it' for my pronoun and purple platypus for any fucking race argument because I don't fucking care who you are behind the screen because odds are I'll never meet you, so the only thing I care about is if you can make a useful post that is worth reading or not.

Remember people, there are nearly seven fucking billion people on this planet. The last thing you are is remotely special.

violence in the media · Tue May 04, 2010 12:12 pm

Ubernoob, don't be a tool.

RobbyPants · Post by **RobbyPants** » Tue May 04, 2010 12:28 pm

I'm assuming this is spawning off of the whole Kaelik/CeilingCat thing?

Sure, you're right that at first you won't know anyone on the internet, so you'll have to make certain assumptions or just use some neutral term. The difference between this and what spawned the whole discussion is whether a pronoun is being picked by default or assumption, or whether it's being deliberately picked just to piss someone off.

Zinegata · Post by **Zinegata** » Tue May 04, 2010 12:43 pm

I don't think Kaelik even intentionally started calling Ceiling Cat a he when it found out about Ceiling Cat's... status.

It's just that Ceiling Cat has been whining a lot and being a frigging emotional vampire.

Gender problems are something you deal with in real life. If you're a fucking idiot who brings these issues to an Internet forum full of strangers, don't expect sympathy unless the name of the site is GivesMeHope.com

Kaelik · Post by **Kaelik** » Tue May 04, 2010 12:45 pm

RobbyPants wrote:I'm assuming this is spawning off of the whole Kaelik/CeilingCat thing?

Sure, you're right that at first you won't know anyone on the internet, so you'll have to make certain assumptions or just use some neutral term. The difference between this and what spawned the whole discussion is whether a pronoun is being picked by default or assumption, or whether it's being deliberately picked just to piss someone off.

I think Uber's contention is slightly different from that.

I think he is claiming not specifically about Ceiling Cat, but in general about everyone that your gender has no effect whatsoever, because we can't even know your gender at all, and it doesn't actually matter.

I actually disagree with him, there is a very easy way to know gender on the internet, it's called, what they do and don't object to. I call Crissa a she not because she has arguments that I think are more likely to come from a girl, but because I see other people referring to her as a she, and her not correcting them.

Likewise, four years ago, Ceiling Cat was referred to as he, and never corrected anyone. And then at some point, Ceiling Cat was transgendered (or is, whatever) and yet, still never objected to people using "he" up until his claim that I'm doing it on purpose to insult him.

And this demonstrates the problem with correction based gender. What if someone doesn't care? Now Ceiling Cat did apparently care, but wouldn't step up an actually say anything until it boiled over in the sexism wars. But the same issue could exist anywhere else.

I don't think I've ever said anything on tgd that actually indicates my real gender, so as far as anyone knows, I could be a girl. There is good reason to assume I'm not, because I have never corrected anyone using male pronouns about me, but I have also never corrected anyone using female pronouns, it's just that people first assumed I was male, and since, people can see others using he and him, and take that as a lead.

So bottom line, if you have someone who actually doesn't care, we could all be calling them the wrong gender with no possibility of correction whatsoever.

Of course, if they don't care, it doesn't really matter, but meh.

Zinegata · Post by **Zinegata** » Tue May 04, 2010 12:47 pm

Kaelik wrote:I could be a girl.

*blinks*

... ARGH! The mental image of Kaelik as a girl has wormed inside my head! NOOOOOO!!!!!

... So wait, are you a girl then? Are you single?

RobbyPants · Post by **RobbyPants** » Tue May 04, 2010 1:01 pm

Ah, that makes more sense.

Cielingcat · Post by **Cielingcat** » Tue May 04, 2010 1:56 pm

You don't know what someone is on the internet, but if they tell you what they are, and then you say that you have no respect for them and they should just shut up because you're better than them and you don't want to hear minorities complaining, and then you go on to purposefully disrespect them and insult them in very class specific ways, it kind of seems that you are doing it on purpose.

Just a little bit.

Also, when you say "you are not special", you kind of have to have it apply to yourself too. But I forgot, you're better than at least 95% of everyone because you say so. And yes, I will bring this up every time you advise people not to think they're special-because every time you do that, you are a hypocritical jackass.

If you recall, I started this by responding to Kaelik saying that the Arizona anti-immigrant laws weren't racist. Kaelik is the one who brought me being trans into it, and made sure to use "he" repeatedly while talking about me being trans. But since then he (and somewhat ubernoob) have made sure to make it about how much of a "whiny bitch" I am. And Zinegata also said flat out that minorities should shut up because he bought the right wing talking point about Asians being the "model minority" who (in our new, revised history) never protest when white people stomp on their rights.

I didn't make this about me being trans. I didn't even mention myself, but Kaelik decided that the best way to rebut my correction to
Ganbare Gincun's post about Kaelik drinking Fox News kool-aid was to say "Oh look, Ceiling Cat is all butthurt because I called his transexual desires equivalent to a tattoo or any other cosmetic feelings, instead of his "soul's inner desire" so now he's lying about shit to discredit me on the internet. How cute. " You can go and look yourself, these things are saved on the internet for people to read.

This started being about how Kaelik constantly says racist and sexist things every time he can. They have made it about me to derail it, and are now saying I'm an emotional vampire or a whiny bitch or whatever they feel like, because I had the gall to say to their faces that they were racists. My point this entire time has been that, by the measure of everything that has been posted on this site, Kaelik is a bad person.

Honestly, if I was looking for sympathy with my real life problems, I would think I'd actually talk about my real life problems. But if you note, I haven't done that outside of one thread about my personal life that was last posted in five months ago. And I'm not talking about the the thread that spawned Kaelik telling me his opinions on trans people were more important than trans people's lives, because that wasn't about me as an individual.

(As an aside, who is it that's been starting new threads to make sweeping attacks against one person that clearly apply to everyone even though the actual intention is obvious? Because I don't think that was me.)

Kaelik · Post by **Kaelik** » Tue May 04, 2010 2:25 pm

Cielingcat wrote:You don't know what someone is on the internet, but if they tell you what they are, and then you say that you have no respect for them and they should just shut up because you're better than them and you don't want to hear minorities complaining, and then you go on to purposefully disrespect them and insult them in very class specific ways, it kind of seems that you are doing it on purpose.

Alternatively, could you point to any instance in which I actually said any of that? Or are you just going to continue lying about what I've said like an asshole, the thing that started this in the first place.

Cielingcat wrote:If you recall, I started this by responding to Kaelik saying that the Arizona anti-immigrant laws weren't racist. Kaelik is the one who brought me being trans into it, and made sure to use "he" repeatedly while talking about me being trans.

If you'll recall, you started this by accusing me of being racist and sexist by lying about what I said in such an obviously false retarded way that there is zero percent chance you didn't know you were lying.

To whit: "In another thread, his justification for abortion being wrong is "Because stupid people are bad."" Even though that was my justification for abortion being a good damn thing.

So yes. I brought the fact that in the last thread we were both in you took it personally that I don't consider you superior to men and women, but merely equal. I brought that in because I have no other possible explanation for why you would lie like such a fuck face for no reason.

But let's keep the record straight: You accused me of being sexist and racist in your first fucking post. Before I said anything about your transgender. You started the sexist wars you asshat.

Cielingcat wrote:I didn't make this about me being trans. I didn't even mention myself, but Kaelik decided that the best way to rebut my correction to Ganbare Gincun's post about Kaelik drinking Fox News kool-aid was to say "Oh look, Ceiling Cat is all butthurt because I called his transexual desires equivalent to a tattoo or any other cosmetic feelings, instead of his "soul's inner desire" so now he's lying about shit to discredit me on the internet. How cute. " You can go and look yourself, these things are saved on the internet for people to read.

You made it about how I was sexist by lying your ass off. So I brought up a possible fucking reason for you to be lying that would discredit your lying ass.

Cielingcat wrote:This started being about how Kaelik constantly says racist and sexist things every time he can. They have made it about me to derail it,

This started about how I'm a sexist when you lied about me for no reason. I made it about why you were lying for no reason because I don't fucking like liars, and I wanted to call you on your fucking lying liar.

ubernoob · Post by **ubernoob** » Tue May 04, 2010 2:45 pm

Cielingcat wrote:Also, when you say "you are not special", you kind of have to have it apply to yourself too. But I forgot, you're better than at least 95% of everyone because you say so. And yes, I will bring this up every time you advise people not to think they're special-because every time you do that, you are a hypocritical jackass.

Here's a little bit from the original post I think you must have missed.

ubernoob wrote:the only thing I care about is if you can make a useful post that is worth reading or not.

Whining is not worth reading, so I can say I'm better than you without being remotely hypocritical. Now, you could totally argue that I am a jackass, and you know what? I'd agree with you. Then we'd get on with our lives because nobody cares if you're a jackass on a forum if you happen to be worth reading anyways.

Lago PARANOIA · Post by **Lago PARANOIA** » Tue May 04, 2010 3:04 pm

Wow, ubernoob. I actually feel kind of bad.

I mean, I always knew that Kaelik was an asshole (not an amusing asshole but a bilious thread-shitting one) and it's becoming increasingly obvious that Zinegata is an hypocritical jackass, but I would've never expected you of all people to get onto the jackass bandwagon.

Since 'it's the gaming board, it's okay to be a jackass' argument is gaining unwarranted currency around here lately, let me say this:

Whining is not worth reading, so I can say I'm better than you without being remotely hypocritical. Now, you could totally argue that I am a jackass, and you know what? I'd agree with you. Then we'd get on with our lives because nobody cares if you're a jackass on a forum if you happen to be worth reading anyways.

I think you grossly misinterpreted the jackass-clause around here. On TGD, being a jackass just doesn't automatically make you wrong. It in no way makes you smart, pleasant, or even tolerable.

Being a jackass doesn't get you kicked off, but it puts you in the same general category as pedos (the non-child molesting kind) and bigots. People we put up with because even though they're obnoxious they still have some insight. Unless you're doing it for irony or humor value, being a deliberate jackass is something you should avoid. Even on here.

Remember, the most effective assholery is done to emphasize a point, not just because you feel like it. Even then you are faced with the very real problem of you heading down a slippery-slope where name-calling ends up distracting you (not the other people, yourself) from what points you were attempting to make.

I implore you, ubernoob, step back from the abyss.

ubernoob · Post by **ubernoob** » Tue May 04, 2010 3:09 pm

Lago PARANOIA wrote:Wow, ubernoob. I actually feel kind of bad.

I mean, I always knew that Kaelik was an asshole (not an amusing asshole but a bilious thread-shitting one) and it's becoming increasingly obvious that Zinegata is an hypocritical jackass, but I would've never expected you of all people to get onto the jackass bandwagon.

If you didn't think I'm a jackass before, obviously your definition of jackass and my definition of jackass are slightly different. I'm not *as big* of a jackass as Kaelik, but I'm definitely a jackass by my own standards.

Zinegata · Post by **Zinegata** » Tue May 04, 2010 3:14 pm

Lago PARANOIA wrote:and it's becoming increasingly obvious that Zinegata is an hypocritical jackass, but I would've never expected you of all people to get onto the jackass bandwagon.

Oh please. You just don't like my political views and the fact I wasn't afraid to call you out on being mean.

The people you've named - except probably Kaelik - are perfectly capable of having civilized discussions. But that would require the other person to not be a jackass too, because otherwise we'd shout right back.

Lago PARANOIA · Post by **Lago PARANOIA** » Tue May 04, 2010 3:14 pm

Kaelik wrote:If you didn't think I'm a jackass before, obviously your definition of jackass and my definition of jackass are slightly different. I'm not *as big* of a jackass as Kaelik, but I'm definitely a jackass by my own standards.

You may want to use something less ambiguous than jackass in that case, since that word describes fellows like Borat, Kanye West, and Fred Phelps.

Zinegata · Post by **Zinegata** » Tue May 04, 2010 3:15 pm

Lago PARANOIA wrote:
Kaelik wrote:If you didn't think I'm a jackass before, obviously your definition of jackass and my definition of jackass are slightly different. I'm not *as big* of a jackass as Kaelik, but I'm definitely a jackass by my own standards.
You may want to use something less ambiguous than jackass in that case, since that word describes fellows like Borat, Kanye West, and Fred Phelps.

I thought ubernoob said that o_o

ubernoob · Post by **ubernoob** » Tue May 04, 2010 3:17 pm

Lago PARANOIA wrote:You may want to use something less ambiguous than jackass in that case, since that word describes fellows like Borat, Kanye West, and Fred Phelps.

I could, but the fact is that Cielingcat accused me of being a jackass, and by my own standards, that's an accurate accusation. It just doesn't matter.

Crissa · Post by **Crissa** » Tue May 04, 2010 7:45 pm

re original post:

Actually, un, that would keep you from being a racist. Basically, if you can't replace the insult that is using a racist, sexist etc framework, then don't use it.

Using gender neutral and race neutral terms is one step to how you stop being sexist and racist.

I don't know why that seems to be so difficult for some to grasp.

-Crissa

CatharzGodfoot · Post by **CatharzGodfoot** » Tue May 04, 2010 8:11 pm

Crissa wrote:re original post:

Actually, un, that would keep you from being a racist. Basically, if you can't replace the insult that is using a racist, sexist etc framework, then don't use it.

Using gender neutral and race neutral terms is one step to how you stop being sexist and racist.

I don't know why that seems to be so difficult for some to grasp.

-Crissa

I, for one, just didn't realize that the convention of 'inclusive'/'neutral' male pronouns made some people feel excluded until I asked my wife. Now I try to use female pronouns as neutral because, hey, it might to a little bit to even things out. I'd use the singular 'they', but it usually trips me up.

As far as racism, I recently saw a Paul Mooney stand up routine and couldn't stop thinking "[EDITED]" this and "[EDITED]" that for two days. I guess I'm just that suggestible. I also didn't find it funny, which apparently means that I'm racist. I'm not sure what that says about racism in general, beyond the power of words and repetition.

[Edit] If you have any idea who Paul Mooney is then you know what "[EDITED]" is. [/Edit]

Kaelik · Post by **Kaelik** » Tue May 04, 2010 10:17 pm

Crissa wrote:Using gender neutral and race neutral terms is one step to how you stop being sexist and racist.

Which only applies if you are racist and sexist in the first place. Which no one here is (Zinegata excepted), and so it has no bearing whatsoever.

Once again, bitch is gender neutral. Stop being old.

Crissa · Post by **Crissa** » Tue May 04, 2010 10:22 pm

Geez, Kaelik, whine whine whine.

You don't get to choose what is and isn't gender-neutral. You don't get to choose what is and isn't a racist or sexist framing. This happens outside of you.

You may hate everyone equally, but the moment you take up a sword and stab with it, you're a sword-stabber as well as anything else you happen to be. The only way not to be a sword-stabber is to not pick up the sword.

-Crissa

ubernoob · Post by **ubernoob** » Tue May 04, 2010 10:32 pm

Crissa wrote:Geez, Kaelik, whine whine whine.

You don't get to choose what is and isn't gender-neutral. You don't get to choose what is and isn't a racist or sexist framing. This happens outside of you.

Actually, we do. We totally do. We do that by speaking the language. The entire reason that languages change is because each generation speaks the language in a different way than the previous way. Stop being an old bitch.

Red_Rob · Post by **Red_Rob** » Tue May 04, 2010 10:33 pm

http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=bitch

4 out of the 7 front page definitions of "Bitch" on Urban dictionary reference women. So, unless you think that old people are constantly posting on Urban Dictionary this shows that bitch does still have some gender bias among young people.

Plus its historically been a rather dismissive insult when used in regards to a woman. The inference is always that the woman is just "being a bitch" and therefore doesn't have any real points you need to contest.

However, I don't think that just using the term means you are deliberately being sexist. I just think people should think a little about the insults they are flinging around and the possible subtext. If using the word "asshole" rather than "bitch" to a female poster means they respond to your argument instead of accusing you of being sexist, isn't that a better term to use?

ubernoob · Post by **ubernoob** » Tue May 04, 2010 10:38 pm

Red_Rob wrote:http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=bitch

4 out of the 7 front page definitions of "Bitch" on Urban dictionary reference women. So, unless you think that old people are constantly posting on Urban Dictionary this shows that bitch does still have some gender bias among young people.

And above all of those in relevance is the definition that is specific to men. Apparently the internet thinks the most common use is a whiny person, then some guy that is whipped, and finally what the word meant a generation ago.

So yeah, there's a reason that I linked to urban dictionary in the other thread. It proves my point that bitch is no longer gender exclusive, and that only old people use it in that way. It proves my fucking point.

Red_Rob · Post by **Red_Rob** » Tue May 04, 2010 10:51 pm

ubernoob wrote:Apparently the internet thinks the most common use is a whiny person, then some guy that is whipped, and finally what the word meant a generation ago.

So yeah, there's a reason that I linked to urban dictionary in the other thread. It proves my point that bitch is no longer gender exclusive, and that only old people use it in that way. It proves my fucking point.

No. Thats not the way the stats work. People vote up the definition they believe is most accurate, therefore that page shows that more people believe it is gender neutral but that a fairly large proportion still believes it has a gender bias.

So yes, it is definitely less gender specific than it used to be. But it is still associated with women to a sizeable portion of the online population.

ubernoob · Post by **ubernoob** » Tue May 04, 2010 11:00 pm

Red_Rob wrote:
ubernoob wrote:Apparently the internet thinks the most common use is a whiny person, then some guy that is whipped, and finally what the word meant a generation ago.

So yeah, there's a reason that I linked to urban dictionary in the other thread. It proves my point that bitch is no longer gender exclusive, and that only old people use it in that way. It proves my fucking point.
No. Thats not the way the stats work. People vote up the definition they believe is most accurate, therefore that page shows that more people believe it is gender neutral but that a fairly large proportion still believes it has a gender bias.

So yes, it is definitely less gender specific than it used to be. But it is still associated with women to a sizeable portion of the online population.

If you want to actually look at the numbers, here's what they are:
5609 up, 1801 down for the guy.
4334 up, 1930 down for the top definition pertaining to women.

More people think that a bitch is a man than think is a woman. Seriously.