Book of Gears weapons - non enhancement

[Red_Rob]

So, we started a Tome campaign (a run through of Rise of the Runelords). Noone (including me, the GM) has played 3rd Edition before so the players are approaching the game completely fresh.

Everyone's loving it, the Tome works really well to individualise the martial classes and they all have something at high level to aim for. I've had to bump up the opposition a little but I expected that with the campaign being designed for Core classes. We have had a couple of rules queries that I'd like people's opinion on.

Firstly, the Samurai has noticed that his class ability gives his weapon an enhancement bonus and ghost touch. We're playing Book of Gears item rules so items are limited to 8 per player. The player has asked if he can get a sword that provides a different scaling bonus, for example a strength boost, and a lesser power like Keen, and then apply the Samurai bonuses on top. I can't see anything that would prevent this with the non-standard item form rules provided in the Book of Gears, so he would end up with a +x, +strength, keen, ghost touch weapon. Is that correct?

Also, a barbarian can go into a rage "when doing melee damage or being struck by a foe" as an immediate action. Can this be used in the middle of an attack sequence? Does this mean you have to roll attacks against a non-raging barbarian one at a time in case they activate rage before your next attack?

[schpeelah]

I'm not exactly sure about the Str bonus, but combining weapon properties form actual magic weapon and class abilities seems fine.

Since the Rage is an immidiate action, they can use it as they get struck by/deliver the first blow, gaining bonuses gaining bonuses to/against even the very first attack.

[CatharzGodfoot]

The samurai's ancestral weapon ability allows you to improve the powers of an already magical weapon, but at the cost of having to pay the item slot rather than having an extra magic item 'for free'.

By adding the effect of another magic item to the sword, you're effectively giving the samurai three magic items for the price of one. If the samurai is underperforming, that's reasonable. My view is that a weapon generally shouldn't be giving a strength boost and a magical enhancement to attacks any more than a helmet should.

Otherwise you might want to discuss an alternative like a (constant) strength boosting minor item that happens to have the form of a sword. Such an item could be used as an ancestral weapon (and just not light things on fire or crit twice as often or whatever), or it could be used like a wakizashi.

[Judging__Eagle]

Barbarians get their bonus on hit, or on being hit. Not at strike attempt.

The order of operations seems pretty similar, but it's actually a bit of a difference.

The end result is that a Barbarian is better off either delaying their first attack, cutting themselves prior to combat, or having an ally who will hit you for below your DR threshold. Attacking will lost the Barbarian their rage bonuses in the first round; such as their speed, saves, DR, and most importantly, their damage.

If your parties barbarian isn't bleeding before they start to move or attack, then someone needs to fix that, even if it's an other PC hitting the Barbarian just once for minimum (i.e. 1 damage).

I used to do that with one of my fighter characters. They would target the barbarians in the party with an attack in order to turn their rage on. Being able to AoE with melee attacks, and having multiple barbarian allies is pretty good synergy.

[Red_Rob]

The rules state it must be a foe who hits to trigger rage. We interpret "enemy" as "someone who intends to kill you", therefore party members can't trigger it. We had also interpreted the "being hit" part to mean that you had to take the first hit of damage without DR. Is this incorrect?

Regarding the Samurai weapon, I am aware that it would effectively count as 2 items. This is the explicit effect that it seems the rules give him. He chooses a "scaling Str boost" item in the shape of a sword, with the Lesser Power "Keen". He then performs his Ancestral Weapon ritual to give it a scaling enhancement bonus and Ghost touch.

I am aware that the Book of Gears rules are unfinished, and I am using the Lesser, Medium and Major powers Frank listed in a thread a while ago. I am not using minor magic items, every item has at least a scaling bonus and a lesser power. Therefore if he applies his Ancestral Ritual to any magic sword he would be getting double the benefit. I think I'll try it out and see how it goes. Ghost touch isn't exactly an overpowering ability.

[CatharzGodfoot]

We might be talking past each other. If that's the case, please forgive me.

An ancestral weapon shouldn't count against the magic item limit. It should count as 'no items', or if it was already magical then 'one item'.

Weapon powers aren't balanced as 'lesser item powers'. You seriously should not want a player to have 'boots of defender', 'gloves of dispelling', 'codpiece of terror', 'socks of berserking', and 'pince nez of lesser time distortion'. If you're allowing them to add a scaling bonus to that (I'm not clear if you are or if it counts 'as two items')--well, it's not really any worse (at least it's less one-sided)--but it is even more powerful. It doesn't matter if the item is 'in the shape of a sword', unless you actually have to use it as a sword to get the effect. In that case it's a lesser magic weapon rather than a lesser item.

[Kaelik]

Hey, as the only person who understands what you are saying, I say, yeah, that sort of thing is fine.

You want a Time Distortion Sword, but you don't want to waste a magic item on a scaling AB and Damage bonus. Cool. Just make it a Str booster instead and apply Ancestral Weapon onto it.

FYI, if you are using Book of Gears + Samurai, you should upgrade Ancestral Weapon to be like a scaling magic item just so it's the same as having a Magic weapon.