[Politics] Castro: Cuban Model Doesn't Work...?

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[Politics] Castro: Cuban Model Doesn't Work...?

Post by Maj »

[url=http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20100908/ap_on_re_la_am_ca/cb_cuba_fidel_castro wrote:Yahoo! News[/url] {OK, Cuba, Castro, Failure}]Report: Castro says Cuban model doesn't work
By PAUL HAVEN, Associated Press

HAVANA – Fidel Castro told a visiting American journalist that Cuba's communist economic model doesn't work, a rare comment on domestic affairs from a man who has conspicuously steered clear of local issues since stepping down four years ago.

The fact that things are not working efficiently on this cash-strapped Caribbean island is hardly news. Fidel's brother Raul, the country's president, has said the same thing repeatedly. But the blunt assessment by the father of Cuba's 1959 revolution is sure to raise eyebrows.

Jeffrey Goldberg, a national correspondent for The Atlantic magazine, asked if Cuba's economic system was still worth exporting to other countries, and Castro replied: "The Cuban model doesn't even work for us anymore" Goldberg wrote Wednesday in a post on his Atlantic blog.

He said Castro made the comment casually over lunch following a long talk about the Middle East, and did not elaborate. The Cuban government had no immediate comment on Goldberg's account.

Since stepping down from power in 2006, the ex-president has focused almost entirely on international affairs and said very little about Cuba and its politics, perhaps to limit the perception he is stepping on his brother's toes.

Goldberg, who traveled to Cuba at Castro's invitation last week to discuss a recent Atlantic article he wrote about Iran's nuclear program, also reported on Tuesday that Castro questioned his own actions during the 1962 Cuban Missile Crisis, including his recommendation to Soviet leaders that they use nuclear weapons against the United States.

Even after the fall of the Soviet Union, Cuba has clung to its communist system.

The state controls well over 90 percent of the economy, paying workers salaries of about $20 a month in return for free health care and education, and nearly free transportation and housing. At least a portion of every citizen's food needs are sold to them through ration books at heavily subsidized prices.

President Raul Castro and others have instituted a series of limited economic reforms, and have warned Cubans that they need to start working harder and expecting less from the government. But the president has also made it clear he has no desire to depart from Cuba's socialist system or embrace capitalism.

Fidel Castro stepped down temporarily in July 2006 due to a serious illness that nearly killed him.

He resigned permanently two years later, but remains head of the Communist Party. After staying almost entirely out of the spotlight for four years, he re-emerged in July and now speaks frequently about international affairs. He has been warning for weeks of the threat of a nuclear war over Iran.

Castro's interview with Goldberg is the only one he has given to an American journalist since he left office.

___

On the Web: http://www.theatlantic.com/jeffrey-goldberg/


Castro then went on to say...
[url=http://www.cnn.com/2010/WORLD/americas/09/10/cuba.castro.communism/ wrote:CNN[/url] {OK, Cuba, Castro, Failure}]Fidel Castro says his comment on Cuban model was misunderstood
From Shasta Darlington, CNN

Havana, Cuba (CNN) -- Former Cuban President Fidel Castro said Friday that he was misinterpreted when he recently told an American journalist that the Cuban model no longer works.

In a speech at the University of Havana that was then broadcast on Cuban TV, Castro said he meant "exactly the opposite" of what was understood by Jeffrey Goldberg, who was interviewing him for The Atlantic.

According to Goldberg, when he asked Castro during an interview last week if the Cuban model could be exported, the 84-year-old former leader answered: "The Cuban model doesn't even work for us anymore."

The comment was widely interpreted as Castro's admission that the Soviet-style economic model he introduced after his revolution no longer works.

Goldberg wrote on The Atlantic's blog that he turned to Julia Sweig of the Council on Foreign Affairs, who was present at the interview, "to interpret this stunning statement for me."

"She said, 'He wasn't rejecting the ideas of the revolution. I took it to be an acknowledgment that under "the Cuban model" the state has much too big a role in the economic life of the country,'" he wrote.

On Friday, Castro said he was correctly quoted, but that, "in reality, my answer meant exactly the opposite of what both American journalists interpreted regarding the Cuban model."

"My idea, as the whole world knows, is that the capitalist system no longer works for the United States or the world," he said. "How could such a system work for a socialist country like Cuba?" Castro called Goldberg "a great journalist."

"He does not invent phrases, he transfers them and interprets them," he said. "I await with interest his extensive article."

He told an audience that included some of his former soldiers who were there to mark the publication of his 608-page autobiography that the capitalist system "leads from crisis to crisis, each one more serious."
Last edited by Maj on Tue Sep 14, 2010 5:43 am, edited 3 times in total.
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Post by Zinegata »

I've read quite a few accounts that Castro never actually wanted to turn Cuba into a communist state. He was really just forced into becoming one because of the hostility of the United States, and the need to maintain good relations with the Soviet Union. By the time the Soviet Union collapsed, it was way too late for Castro to deny communism without totally discrediting his own regime.

I suspect this was Freudian slip on Castro's part.
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Post by Username17 »

In context or out, that statement really isn't very explosive. When Castro says things and does things, people blow them way out of proportion. For fuck's sake, Castro waves to some Cuban Jewish leaders and people speculate if it's a fucking warning to Iran.

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Post by Josh_Kablack »

And maybe, just maybe Cuba's biggest economic problem isn't their ideology but that their largest, closest, most economically powerful neighbor has been actively working to prevent them from trading with anyone for decades?

Seriously, when looking at contrasts between carribean island nations with populations near 10 million, the contrast between the results of 5 decades of Cuban, Soviet-Satellite Communism with the 5 decades of Haitian American-Puppet-State Capitalism is pretty stark.

https://www.cia.gov/library/publication ... os/ha.html
https://www.cia.gov/library/publication ... os/cu.html

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haiti
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cuba

Heck, in terms of real GDP and GDP per Capita, Cuba is still outperforming the more successful, less-capitialist half of Haiti's island:
https://www.cia.gov/library/publication ... os/dr.html
but maybe that's just due to the large incident of Bank Fraud depressing their economy. I have to wonder if tighter government regulation could have prevented that?
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Post by Zinegata »

Nope, the real problem with Cuba's economy today is that it was dependent for too long on Soviet subsidies.

It's got nothing to do with ideology, yes. But the fact is without Soviet subsidies it's kinda hard to sustain the current level of government services they are providing. Castro could have prepared for the day when the Soviets weren't around anymore, but he didn't and instead spent money to send troops to Africa to prop up communist regimes.

Also, I seriously, seriously doubt that the US alone is to blame for Cuba's isolation. There were times after the collapse of the Soviet Union that Cuba rejected food aid from the US. And hell, if fucking Libya can patch up relations with the West despite several shooting incidents and blowing up an airliner without having to go through regime change, Cuba sure could too.
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Post by cthulhu »

You under estimate how much the us hates cuba
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Post by PoliteNewb »

cthulhu wrote:You under estimate how much the us hates cuba
Enlighten me...how much DOES the U.S. hate Cuba?
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Post by Count Arioch the 28th »

I haven't heard that Americans in general hate Cuba, or even think about Cuba on a regular basis. I don't even know why we still have trade embargoes on them, I'm not aware of anything they've done directly to the US since that nastiness during the Kennedy administration.
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Post by Psychic Robot »

Communism doesn't work? I, for one, am shocked.
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Post by angelfromanotherpin »

Count Arioch the 28th wrote:I haven't heard that Americans in general hate Cuba, or even think about Cuba on a regular basis. I don't even know why we still have trade embargoes on them, I'm not aware of anything they've done directly to the US since that nastiness during the Kennedy administration.
Cuban expatriates (and their families) hate Castro and are a significant voting block in the large swing state that is Florida. Like the Ethanol pledge in Iowa, it's a local (or state, I guess) concern that has national political weight, but not a lot of national exposure.
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Post by mean_liar »

Castro's brother is pushing to deregulate.

http://acgcapitalblog.com/2010/09/15/cu ... atization/
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Post by Count Arioch the 28th »

angelfromanotherpin wrote:
Count Arioch the 28th wrote:I haven't heard that Americans in general hate Cuba, or even think about Cuba on a regular basis. I don't even know why we still have trade embargoes on them, I'm not aware of anything they've done directly to the US since that nastiness during the Kennedy administration.
Cuban expatriates (and their families) hate Castro and are a significant voting block in the large swing state that is Florida. Like the Ethanol pledge in Iowa, it's a local (or state, I guess) concern that has national political weight, but not a lot of national exposure.
Oh, yeah. I can understand that completely.
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Post by Zinegata »

The US government is more annoyed with Cuba nowadays than anything else. Back during the Cold War, Cuba was seen as a really serious threat since it was actively sending troops to support communist regimes (in effect fighting proxy wars for the USSR). And that whole "nearly ended the world" thing with the missiles and Kruschev.

Nowadays though, the US isn't really actively trying to kill Castro anymore, as Cuba was really only a threat with the USSR around. Except that Castro also insists on maintaining the same-old anti-US rhetoric like Hugo Chavez, which makes it really easy for elements within the government to just say "You wanna continue being an ass? Fine, we'll just maintain the embargo".

Again, fucking Libya patched up relations with the West. It wouldn't take a lot to have the embargoes lifted on Cuba too.
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Post by angelfromanotherpin »

Zinegata wrote:Nowadays though, the US isn't really actively trying to kill Castro anymore...

Again, fucking Libya patched up relations with the West. It wouldn't take a lot to have the embargoes lifted on Cuba too.
I dont know about you, but if I had been targeted for umpteen assassination attempts, I would feel it was the other team's place to apologize first.
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Post by PhoneLobster »

Maybe during one of your many weather or oil related disasters in the gulf Cuba should offer aid to the USA in order to patch up...

...oh wait they offer that basically every damn time. It makes the news HERE pretty much every time you have so much as a hint of a hurricane.

"Hurricane hits US coast, cuba offers medical/humanitarian aid".

Really as usual outside of the USA the rest of the world knows which nation it is that has it's pants down and is pissing all over everyone. And it isn't helpful lovable little Cuba.
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Post by Zinegata »

angelfromanotherpin wrote:
Zinegata wrote:Nowadays though, the US isn't really actively trying to kill Castro anymore...

Again, fucking Libya patched up relations with the West. It wouldn't take a lot to have the embargoes lifted on Cuba too.
I dont know about you, but if I had been targeted for umpteen assassination attempts, I would feel it was the other team's place to apologize first.
"You nearly blew up the world. We tried to kill you in response. Let's call it even."

Again, seriously, look at Libya. They blew up an airliner. And engaged in what was for all intents and purposes a shooting war with the US (and I'm betting the CIA tried to kill Qadafi too). But they don't have sanctions anymore because the Libyans stopped acting like the Hugo Chavezes of the world, without having to go through regime change.

Also, Cuba also rejects US aid all the time too. So it's not just the US declining Cuban aid, but also vice-versa.

To be blunt, people just like to side with Cuba because it gives them a way to be anti-American while still looking cool. Forgetting the fact that Cuba actually supported communist movements in Angola and Ethiopia with actual troops, and in Ethiopia said communist movement had their leaders convicted for the crime of genocide.

Yes people. Cuba actually supported a movement that committed genocide.

And really, "to be anti-American is cool" is the only reason why a failed assclown like Che gets to be an icon that sells t-shirts. Cuba's in no way loveable if you actually read history.
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Post by Wesley Street »

Zinegata wrote:To be blunt, people just like to side with Cuba because it gives them a way to be anti-American while still looking cool. Forgetting the fact that Cuba actually supported communist movements in Angola and Ethiopia with actual troops, and in Ethiopia said communist movement had their leaders convicted for the crime of genocide.
And they sent in paratroopers to invade our beloved Colorado towns during Red Dawn. God DAMN you Cuba! :screams:
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Post by Juton »

There is a very active voting block of expatriate Cubans in Florida and surroundings. These Cubans want Castro punished, so both parties have towed the hard line in hopes of swaying these voters. Cuba actually has a tourist economy, it's a popular place for Canadians to go in the wintery months, I'm sure the Cubans would love to have American tourists and American dollars.
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Post by angelfromanotherpin »

Zinegata wrote:"You nearly blew up the world. We tried to kill you in response. Let's call it even."
You really are a fountain of nationalistic ignorance aren't you?

The U.S. had been trying to assassinate Castro for two or three years before the Cuban Missile Crisis. And had sponsored an invasion of Cuba eighteen months before the CMC. And had put Moscow-threatening nuclear missiles in Turkey four years before the CMC.

That's not a response. That's being the aggressor.
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Post by Count Arioch the 28th »

Juton wrote:There is a very active voting block of expatriate Cubans in Florida and surroundings. These Cubans want Castro punished, so both parties have towed the hard line in hopes of swaying these voters. Cuba actually has a tourist economy, it's a popular place for Canadians to go in the wintery months, I'm sure the Cubans would love to have American tourists and American dollars.
I was under the impression that they're letting Americans go over there now?
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Post by CatharzGodfoot »

Count Arioch the 28th wrote:
Juton wrote:There is a very active voting block of expatriate Cubans in Florida and surroundings. These Cubans want Castro punished, so both parties have towed the hard line in hopes of swaying these voters. Cuba actually has a tourist economy, it's a popular place for Canadians to go in the wintery months, I'm sure the Cubans would love to have American tourists and American dollars.
I was under the impression that they're letting Americans go over there now?
Cuba has allowed USA tourists for pretty much ever. It's the USA that doesn't allow it's tourists into Cuba.
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Post by Zinegata »

angelfromanotherpin wrote:
Zinegata wrote:"You nearly blew up the world. We tried to kill you in response. Let's call it even."
You really are a fountain of nationalistic ignorance aren't you?

The U.S. had been trying to assassinate Castro for two or three years before the Cuban Missile Crisis. And had sponsored an invasion of Cuba eighteen months before the CMC. And had put Moscow-threatening nuclear missiles in Turkey four years before the CMC.

That's not a response. That's being the aggressor.
You really don't understand the concept of "oversimplification" do you, and instead prefer to use big words like "fountain of nationalistic ignorance"... on a non American?

Also, I would say that "kicking out a regime friendly to the US" is very much cause for the US to try to assassinate you. The US is just bad at it, unlike how the Soviets actually did kill the president of Afghanistan in the lead up to their invasion.

Again, the fact is simple: People like you love Cuba because you're an ignorant fuck who doesn't realize that Cuba's been an ass on the world's stage. Supporting guys in Ethiopia who committed shit like genocide is not cool.

Seriously, there were times when the Soviet Union was at the brink of witholding aid to Cuba during the Cold War because even the Soviets thought Castro was doing things that were too crazy for the continued health of the planet.
Last edited by Zinegata on Thu Sep 16, 2010 11:04 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Post by angelfromanotherpin »

Zinegata, I honestly believe that response discredits you better than my arguments ever could. It's like a medley of how to undermine your own credibility. From the goalpost-moving, to the strawmanning, to the calling out 'people like me,' (when you don't know anything about me)... it's a work of art.

Oh, FYI, you don't need to be a citizen or resident of a country to be nationalistic in favor of that country... but it helps.
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Post by Zinegata »

angelfromanotherpin wrote:Zinegata, I honestly believe that response discredits you better than my arguments ever could. It's like a medley of how to undermine your own credibility. From the goalpost-moving, to the strawmanning, to the calling out 'people like me,' (when you don't know anything about me)... it's a work of art.
Wow. Look at how you post consists entirely of personal attacks... without a single actual counter-argument.

Angel, it boils down to this: You got embarassed because you were stupid enough to call someone a "fountation of nationalistic ignorance", when that person wasn't even an American.

And your knowledge of world history is either so little, or so dishonest, that your response to "Cuba supported movements that committed genocide" is "But I'm smarter than Zine!"

Sorry, but you're not proving anything except that you're a jerkass.
Oh, FYI, you don't need to be a citizen or resident of a country to be nationalistic in favor of that country... but it helps.
Hey, dipshit. Read the dictionary:

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/nationalism

1. Devotion to the interests or culture of one's nation.

Nationalism does not apply to love, like, or admiration for another country. It only applies to your OWN country.

A seperate term already exists for non-Americans who like America. They are called Americanophiles. Which is similar to the often-used term Anglophile, Francophile, Germanophile, and the like.

So again, angel, stop deluding yourself. You got owned because you used big words that you don't know the meaning of. By a non-native English speaker no less.

And now you're resorting to baseless personal attacks because you've got nothing else but more horseshit.

Piece of advice? Either defend Cuba's Cold War record and prove that they aren't a bunch of jerkasses who supported a movement that committed genocide, or stop being a troll.
Last edited by Zinegata on Fri Sep 17, 2010 2:14 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Post by The Vigilante »

I don't nearly care enough to argue over all the mistakes in this thread, but I will correct this statement, which is obviously and demonstrably wrong :
Josh_Kablack wrote:And maybe, just maybe Cuba's biggest economic problem isn't their ideology but that their largest, closest, most economically powerful neighbor has been actively working to prevent them from trading with anyone for decades?
This is patently false, as Cuba exported $2.458 billion worth of goods in 2009 (Source : https://www.cia.gov/library/publication ... os/cu.html), and openly trades with european, asian and other american nations like Canada, Spain, the Netherlands and China. (Source : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economy_of_Cuba). There are two embargos in Cuba, the one that prohibits trading with the USA, put in place by the USA, and the internal embargo set by Cuba that restricts IMPORTS from other countries. The USA cannot, and has not, prevented Cuba from trading with other nations.
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