Being a Good Player

[Maj]

I just want to say that in my opinion being GM is more interesting than being player.

Makes me wonder what this thread would look like if it were a how-to for being a good player.

In order of importance:

1. Show up reasonably on time
2. Bathe
3. Read the rules beforehand to at least have a general idea how to play
4. Bring your character sheet, or if you are the type to lose it, give it to the GM to save.
5. Bring dice
6. If you're the type that intentionally breaks games and kills off party members to be disruptive, do the GM a favor and just don't play to begin with unless that's specifically the kind of game being run.
7. Understand what kind of game you're joining before making a character. Magic tea party? Hack & Slash? Backstabbing manipulation?
8. Leave your entitlement shit at the door. This is a group activity.

Really, that's about it for what I look for in a player. There's stuff I'd really like, such as strong roleplayers and understanding that the pacing of a game is important (rules lawyers who have to have a 30 minute argument in the middle of the session- I'm looking at you), but really the above 8 points, in that order of importance, is all I look for.

I'm not really great at writing up large FAQs on player behavior, but there were lots of ideas being thrown around in the DM thread about what makes a good DM, and I wanted to compare/contrast that with the other role at the table.

[Maj]

1. Show up reasonably on time

Yes.

2. Bathe

...within 24 hours of arriving, please. Once a year/month/week doesn't count.

3. Read the rules beforehand to at least have a general idea how to play

I can totally handle someone who hasn't read the rules provided they have a character sheet prepared with all the salient details. Knowledgeable players are nice, but some of the best ones began in our group as complete ignorants about the game.

4. Bring your character sheet, or if you are the type to lose it, give it to the GM to save.

In our group, all characters give their character sheet to the DM. Usually via eMail.

5. Bring dice

We actually have a pile of dice large enough that they have their own serving bowl. It's sort of like Halloween, but instead of candy, everyone chooses dice [that roll 20s].

6. If you're the type that intentionally breaks games and kills off party members to be disruptive, do the GM a favor and just don't play to begin with unless that's specifically the kind of game being run.

Does intentionally breaking games include just randomly attacking stuff (but not the other PCs) because you're bored?

7. Understand what kind of game you're joining before making a character. Magic tea party? Hack & Slash? Backstabbing manipulation?

I generally consider making this known to be the responsibility of the DM, but I understand how player knowledge will only support the game rather than confuse it.

8. Leave your entitlement shit at the door. This is a group activity.

What does this mean?

---

I'm going to add that you should build a character that has a reason to participate. While I get that it's supposed to be the DM's job to engage the players, I've actually been in a game where a player decided that rather than go adventuring, his character was going to sit in a bar all session. If money, fame, a house, women, mystery, fighting, magical swords, friendship, escape, and/or good stories are not enough to motivate, why are you playing?

[Zinegata]

8. Leave your entitlement shit at the door. This is a group activity.

What does this mean?

I suspect it's this:

Some people don't come to D&D sessions to play.

They instead try to make a point. Usually political or religious in nature. And often involving something they don't have in the real world.

Which other people at the table with inevitably start groaning at.

[Kaelik]

I suspect it's this:

Some people don't come to D&D sessions to play.

They instead try to make a point. Usually political or religious in nature. And often involving something they don't have in the real world.

Which other people at the table with inevitably start groaning at.

While that might be a way to try reading that statement, in the context of all Flat's previous whining about player entitlement, that's not at all what he's talking about.

Of course, he also thinks "Player entitlement" is people who don't know the rules and expect him to know them for them, which is literally the exact opposite of player entitlement, which is about the DM not being able to change the rules without Player consent/knowledge.

[PoliteNewb]

8. Leave your entitlement shit at the door. This is a group activity.

What does this mean?

I think it means not to feel that you are entitled to anything, if it has to come at the expense of others.

For instance, you are not entitled to snacks...you get snacks to the degree anybody does, which means you may need to pitch in some spare change to purchase them. You don't just expect people to provide you snacks.

Similarly, you should not just expect people to provide you a good time. EVERYONE is there to have a good time, and your good times must be in sync with other peoples'. Just because doing X thing or playing Y character is what would be super-fun for you does not mean that you should do it, if it is going to ruin everyone else's fun.

Basically, I think it just means don't be a douche.

(I'm am using the term "entitlement" as it applies to arrogant people who feel that they are owed certain things--entitled to them--simply because they exist, or because they feel they deserve them. I think that's a douchebag mindset.)

[Koumei]

That makes sense to me. Nothing PR is saying, or has ever said, or ever will say, but the "Don't be a douche. You are supposed to have fun, but so is everybody else. Behave yourself, don't let your fun impose on that of others."

Honestly, play with friends and you're probably fine.

[Josh_Kablack]

Communicate Communicate Communicate.

• If you have to be home by 10 because that's when the babysitter leaves or something let the MC know that as soon as you show up. Do not pull this out 5 min before you have to go and then rush off, disrupting the game and anything the MC might have had planned.
• If you are gonna miss a session or be more than a few minutes late, let the MC and at least one other player know as soon as you know yourself.
• If you absolutely have to run outside for a smoke or to starbucks for an espresso to stay awake or to Kwikemart for a turbo dog because you haven't eaten all day, have the courtesy to ask if the game can spare you and provide a timeframe. It's not that hard to say "Hey, I'm jonesing/falling asleep/hungry - can you spare me and my character for 15 min?" and a heck of a lot better for the MC's sanity and flow of the game's narrative than them suddenly wondering "Hey where'd Steve go?"
• Heck, even if you just have to run to the can, try to do it when it is not your character's turn. HEY MOLE: In combat, right after your turn usually leaves the largest window of time to go answer the call of nature before your next turn. Out of combat, this can be trickier to judge, but try to use some common sense here - if you're playing a D&D rogue and the party has just found a hallway filled with traps, or if you are playing a D&D ranger and you have to track a bunch of bandits this is probably your time to shine so you should just hold it.
• If you have an issue with the game, bring it up to the group. Do so either before of after the session, and do so in a calm and rational manner. It's no big deal to ask "Hey guys, I'm really not happy with how my Bard keeps dying? Can we either have someone else take point or let me bring in another character?" or "It's really a hassle for me to get here to Dan's place. Does anyone have somewhere closer to me that we could meet? Or if not can someone give me a lift to and from these games?" Letting the group know your unhappy with the direction of the game isn't necessarily a bad thing. "Hey, I thought this was a combat heavy game, so I built a combat character - are we gonna have any big fights, or should I rework the character.?". It is a big deal to simmer in discontent until it boils over and you throw a hissy fit in the middle of a session.

[Wesley Street]

Be respectful and pay attention.

If you're too tired to play, stay home and let someone else run your character. Don't make the GM or other players wake you up on your turn.

Treat wireless communication as a privilege, not a right. If it's easier to run a character sheet on a laptop, go for it. But don't use that as an excuse to be surfing the web or writing emails during the game.

Find a babysitter.

Participate in the game you're playing in. Don't research a new character or thumb through rule books during the game.

Don't interrupt when the DM is in the midst of explaining a point or when a player is talking.

Be ready when it's your turn to make a decision.

If you're constantly creating new PCs, you're obviously bored as a player. Try being a GM instead. Your GM will appreciate the break.

[Josh_Kablack]

Participate in the game you're playing in. Don't research a new character or thumb through rule books during the game.

I would amend that one to

[*] Do not disengage your character from a scene to look up a rule. Do not make other players wait on you looking up a rule.

If it's really important you should have put it on your character sheet or other handy reference before the game. Be willing to make an estimate or let the MC wing it, then move on quickly and look it up later.
If you absolutely need to know rules regarding your character during a session look them up quietly and non-disruptively while your character is not center stage. If you need to know the precise parameters of the spell you want to cast next turn - look them up quietly and non-disruptively BEFORE your turn comes around. You are going to have a lot of dead time during combat in most TTRPGs - but the quicker each player can take their turn, the less dead time everyone else has - so use the time when other players are deciding actions to decide your actions.
If you need to ask someone about a rule, pick someone who is both knowledgeable about the rules and not involved in the current scene. If the Druid is summoning animals to spring traps so the rogue can disarm then, then this is a bad time to ask the Druid player or the Rogue player or the MC anything at all - but it's probably okay to pull one of the other players aside for a few minutes and ask quietly about something you don't understand.

[TheFlatline]

3. Read the rules beforehand to at least have a general idea how to play

I can totally handle someone who hasn't read the rules provided they have a character sheet prepared with all the salient details. Knowledgeable players are nice, but some of the best ones began in our group as complete ignorants about the game.

You're absolutely right on this point, and I should probably clarify. If you have access to the book, you should at least know how to roll an attack. Especially if you're rolling up a combat monkey. Barring that, make the effort to achieve a passing familiarity with how the dice rolls work. If I'm still telling you how to make combat rolls at the end of the second session, it's frustrating, and not just to me as a GM but to other players.

5. Bring dice

We actually have a pile of dice large enough that they have their own serving bowl. It's sort of like Halloween, but instead of candy, everyone chooses dice [that roll 20s].

That's awesome. I'm thinking mainly of gaming somewhere that someone doesn't have dice. A club room, the house of a player or GM whose spouse isn't a gamer and thus won't have piles of dice, a convention, whatever. You could combine bringing dice and character sheets and all that other stuff as "ensure you have the materials to play the game" I suppose.

Note for new players I don't expect them to go out and invest in dice, books, whatever. I'm an asshole, but I'm not a tyrant, contrary to what some people think.

6. If you're the type that intentionally breaks games and kills off party members to be disruptive, do the GM a favor and just don't play to begin with unless that's specifically the kind of game being run.

Does intentionally breaking games include just randomly attacking stuff (but not the other PCs) because you're bored?

Nah, it's literally shit like a player, on his first session, hell within 20 minutes of joining into the game, decided the party "leader" needed to die and killed the PC in his sleep. The game then fell apart completely, and the player in question said he wasn't going to play any more in such a crappy game because his time was more valuable than that.

I was brought in as a PC to that game to get the party to the point where they could do shit under their own power again, but it took several more sessions to iron out all the problems that one player caused in one night.

7. Understand what kind of game you're joining before making a character. Magic tea party? Hack & Slash? Backstabbing manipulation?

I generally consider making this known to be the responsibility of the DM, but I understand how player knowledge will only support the game rather than confuse it.

I totally agree with you. However, nothing sucks more than making Mac the Knife in a game where everyone is pacifists, or something else out of theme. If the DM doesn't let you know, asking doesn't hurt, or at least asking other players what they think won't hurt.

8. Leave your entitlement shit at the door. This is a group activity.

What does this mean?

I was being antagonistic and grouchy in the thread. However, setting that aside, sometimes players have unreasonable expectations going into a game. Sometimes GMs do too. Trying to leave that all behind and focus on the game is important. Everyone needs to have fun, not just one or two people, and that means sometimes letting go of a few expectations.

Case in point: The game I'm running now, one of the players went out and got himself a significant other. He then demanded (not asked, but demanded) that she be brought into the game immediately. I don't do well with large groups of players, and 5 players is my limit generally. We had 5 players already, and was about to welcome back a 6th player from before this individual had started playing, who bowed out due to school. When presented with this demand, I explained I didn't know if I could run 7 players without the game suffering a lot, and my house was too small to comfortably seat 8 (I live in a 1910 house that was built for midgets I swear). If the group was okay with 7, and we could find another place to game, I'd let her try out the game and see if it was her liking. I did explain that I really, really didn't like his ultimatum however. His response was basically "tough shit, I'm bringing her whatever the group or you think, and I don't care how hard it is on you, because she won't take 'no' for an answer, and neither will I. If she doesn't play, then I won't play."

Long story short, the group kicked him out for being a dick and demanding accommodation from me. That's kind of what I mean by "entitlement".

It also means, to me at least, to be appreciative of the effort that goes into the game. Not just from the GM's side though. The people who clean up the house and get it ready for guests need a thanks. The people who brought food or cook or pay out of their own pocket need a big thank you. The person who buys a book and contributes it to the group needs consideration. We don't have to suck their dicks or grovel, but we do need to realize that a lot of work gets done to make even a little game happen. We're not entitled to play in a game. It takes a lot of "donations" of time, effort, and money to make a game happen.

There's other interpretations... I've met a scant few who expect to be fed, for free, and a few other entitlement issues that have cropped up over the last 15 years I've gamed. Usually you talk to them as a group, and they either shape up or they go away of their own volition. I've never really seen an enduring problem of this sort.

I'm going to add that you should build a character that has a reason to participate. While I get that it's supposed to be the DM's job to engage the players, I've actually been in a game where a player decided that rather than go adventuring, his character was going to sit in a bar all session.

Good point, but this can be tough for new and/or shy players. When I used to run WoD games I'd ask for one short term goal (something you wanted to do in, say, the next six months in game) and one long term goal (that would take years). I'd end up building most of the story out of these goals, and it worked pretty well. New or shy players though have a lot of trouble sometimes coming up with good ideas, and sometimes it's obscure even to veteran players why they're participating (and that's the fault of a bad GM). I certainly think it should be an effort made by a player.

Fixed quote tags, I think. If I got any attributions incorrect, please feel free to come in behind me and clean up. --Z

[Red_Rob]

Be respectful and pay attention.

"The DM will do a lot of talking, but if he’s not rolling the dice then what he’s saying is probably not important." - DM of the Rings

[Thymos]

Honestly DM of the Rings is kind of an example of everything done wrong.

[Princess]

I suddenly remembered one one player I play now with. As for me she is a good player, and the only one who bothers to roleplay a noble instead of being "cosmopolitan with some title". But many other GMs call her antisocial power-player.

I know GMs who favour idea of players not knowing game rules. And one of them even do not show PC charsheets to players. Needless to say I'm bad player for this guys, good for me I don't want to play with them too.

So a good player must arrive in time and not smell like garbage, but many other aspects are depend on GM this player plays with.

[PhoneLobster]

I once recall reading somewhere about some obscure survey claiming Australians have an unusual obsession with bathing and do it far more often than is normal.

It is the only explanation I have for this whole "Gamers are frequently smelly/dirty" meme.

Which as far as I have ever noticed is basically pure mythology.

It really doesn't deserve it's own point of advice, I mean sure fold it into "You are attending a social event much like any other, behave like a civilized participant in human society.", but does it really require it's own mention?

I mean I actually have to get to the point of "knowing a gamer who knew a gamer and the gamer he knew wasn't actually much of a gamer" before I can find a local instance of a filthy stinky gamer.

It is rather ironic really, what with our shortage of fresh water supplies.

Or maybe we just don't smell them over the stink of all the barbecued koala's.

edit: Oh, and anyone who doesn't understand the concept of The Social Contract shouldn't go around talking about "entitlement syndrome" of any shape or form. Including this one.

[Maj]

It really doesn't deserve it's own point of advice

Yes, it does.

[PhoneLobster]

I have seriously run into more people who smell like a filthy sheep just walking down the street than I have run into in my extensive experience among various Australian gaming communities.

Which isn't hard since within local gaming communities the number of smelly sheep people I have run into is zero. And I've only even heard of one, and he wasn't even a regular.

[Maj]

My experience is not the same as yours. If you don't need it, congratulate yourself, but you don't get to invalidate my experience with your own.

[TheFlatline]

It is the only explanation I have for this whole "Gamers are frequently smelly/dirty" meme.

Which as far as I have ever noticed is basically pure mythology.

So your one point of data invalidates 20 years of examples to the contrary. I got where you're coming from.

I hate going into my FLGS because it smells like curdled milk, sweat, and BO. It's really rather disgusting.

As far as the social contract, I'm really not getting, nor do I care to get, where giving up individual sovereignty to a government so that rule of law can prevail has anything to do with a gaming group.

When boys reach puberty, they start generating body odor far stronger than when they were just boys. Many teenagers don't bathe as frequently as they need to, especially when they engage in sedentary lifestyles such as gaming. In college this can be exasperated by being super-f*cking busy and not having your parents around to nag you to bathe. As adults, some people just don't grow out of it.

Is it *really* that hard to understand?

[PhoneLobster]

uh oh, someones chucking a bitchy little hissy from another thread...

edit: also, see, you don't get the social contract at all, go back to school before you start talking about group dynamics and people management in any context.

[Wesley Street]

"The DM will do a lot of talking, but if he’s not rolling the dice then what he’s saying is probably not important." - DM of the Rings

Ah, metagaming. Time to start rolling dice at random.

[Koumei]

In my experience, it's only wargamers who smell. It has always been that way at conventions - the roleplayers stay away from the wargamers because "they smell".

[PhoneLobster]

In my experience, it's only wargamers who smell.

Interestingly that one guy who some guy I knew knew... was (reputed to be, and only briefly) part of a war gaming rather than role playing gaming community.

I've somewhat gone off wargaming and wargamer communities in general since those mad fuckers at Privateer Press alienated me from their sucky ass game.

[PoliteNewb]

I've somewhat gone off wargaming and wargamer communities in general since those mad fuckers at Privateer Press alienated me from their sucky ass game.

Okay, PL, you are at your most tolerable when doing hilarious rants (against d20 modern, 2E AD&D, you name it), so I'm going to have to ask for elaboration...would you mind telling us in what way Privateer pissed in your cheerios? I think we could all use a good laugh.

FYI, I think Privateer has some good ideas and totally shit execution, so I'm very interested.

[Datawolf]

Here's one that is a huge pet peeve of mine:

Be familiar with all the rules that pertain to your character

Know how your abilites work. Hell, know what they are. I don't care if I'm Mister Cavern or a fellow Jaunty Spelunker. If your turn comes by in combat and you have to spend twenty minutes flipping through binders and boks deciding what you will do and how it will work, you will face my wrath.

[Juton]

Be familiar with all the rules that pertain to your character

Oh fuck yes.

I remember someone in our group wanted to use Psionics from the SRD. Instead of buying the books, or printing off the powers, or making notes, or bringing a computer they did nothing. That and the other player who was using a Crusader without tome of battle on hand just killed that game.