UHC is fiscal conservatism.

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Psychic Robot
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UHC is fiscal conservatism.

Post by Psychic Robot »

I've been thinking about this a lot lately, and it has been troubling me some great deal. As a fiscal conservative who is concerned with the national debt and out-of-control government spending, I have been concerned greatly with the state of health care in America. Our broken, borderline-bankrupt system offends me as a Christian nationalist: how can we, a first-world country, have millions of people uninsured and countless more underinsured? And how can we in good conscience support a system in which wealthy executives get fat off of denying people coverage and allowing them to die for lack of treatment?

But I also approach the subject of UHC with economic trepidation. With rising Medicare and Medicaid costs eating up more and more of our budget, we're looking at a total collapse of the system if drastic action is not taken. Regulating the insurance industry in such a manner without issuing an edict of direct government control that forces health insurance companies to exist as non-profit entities is only going to cause consumers to suffer higher insurance premiums and greater out-of-pocket expenses.

It was upon discussing this issue with those scurrilous bastards who label themselves as fiscal conservatives but whose practices involve cutting social services while channeling funds to the bloated, morally-questionable military-industrial complex when the solution came to mind. I was searching for a chart comparing health care expenditure as a percentage of GDP, and I found this:

Image

And while I had known for some time that UHC is more effective at controlling costs than the private sector (at least with our modern convoluted mess of a health insurance system), it suddenly became clear to me that supporting UHC is fiscal conservatism. The two are not mutually exclusive; rather, they are folded in upon one another.

As previously mentioned, one of the greatest budgetary issues that the United States is facing involves Medicare/Medicaid (right alongside Social Security and Defense spending). But Medicare/Medicaid don't even cover the costs of all the population--they cover a section of the population. If we were to cover the entirety of the population with a like social program, wouldn't the required costs dwarf current expenditures? Such thinking is right on the surface, and one cannot fault fiscal conservatives from approaching the subject cautiously. But the answer lies within the chart.

How can it be that countries with provide health care for their citizens as a part of government spending manage to only spend, on average, a few more percent of their GDP on health care? A conundrum, but one easily explained.

First, there is the issue of competition and profit margin. I am far from one to say that doctors do not deserve to be compensated richly for their services, but the current way that health insurance exists does not work. Covering routine doctors' visits and medication results in excessive charges on the insurance companies, which, in turn, is passed on to the consumer in the form of higher premiums, copays, and deductibles. Compounding this is the fact that hospitals charge ridiculous amounts for routine procedures (if I recall correctly, an MRI costs approximately $1100 in the United States).

But why does this affect government spending? Because the government has to compete with these preposterous costs and pay out accordingly. Thus, the government is forced into a position where they are effectively subsidizing the medical industry, and there is no incentive for said industry to lower costs--when they're drawing from a pool of what is, essentially, unlimited money (in the form of government funds), they can charge whatever they want and get away with it.

If, however, we were to adopt a UHC system, the government could more easily adopt cost-control measures that don't involve denial of coverage or such unpleasantness. In doing so, the government funds would not have to compete with private sector prices, and the overall costs of health care would decrease (thus decreasing the percent of GDP spent on health care).

And, as already mentioned, government spending (as a percent of GDP) on health care in countries with forms of UHC is not significantly higher than government spending in the United States.

But that's not the ingenious part. That's the stale, boring part that economists have been quibbling about for ages. What is the part that really excited me was seeing the part of the chart that compared privatized costs. A sort of enlightening bolt struck me then. Privatized costs in countries with UHC are drastically lower than in the United States (both overall and as a function of GDP). This, in turn, leaves more money in the pockets of the citizens. And what do the citizens do with that money? Spend it frivolously on plasma televisions and iPhones! The simplicity astounds me. With more money in their pockets, consumers spend more stimulating the economy by purchasing goods and services. That boosts GDP, lessening the impact of government spending on total GDP. It's classic Keynesian economics wrapped up in UHC.

The proof is right there in front of us. UHC is fiscal conservatism. Yes, it will inevitably result in more government spending, but that is partially compensated by the increased GDP from consumption of goods and services. All in all, the moral and fiscal dilemma of health care in America can be solved quite simply.
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Post by K »

The simplest solution costs nothing.

Right now, insurance companies use about 60-70% of every dollar they take in to pay for themselves and services. They keep the rest as profit.

Notice how about 1/3rd of Americans have no health insurance?

So basically, we could keep the same level of care and the actual system by nationalizing health care, and we'd get additional savings because we could centralize.

And if things got a little dicey because we were not boning people like the old insurance companies, we could move some of the 30% of our budget that we spend on defense (and in relative terms, more than the next eight largest militaries combined, so a few percent might means we might spend as much as the next seven largest countries).

Now, neither of these things will ever happen because conservatives believe in large militaries AND that corporations should make large stacks of cash even at the expense of our lives.
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Post by cthulhu »

Actually as a 1/3rd of all healthcare insurance int he US gets spent on overheads, not insurance, you can lean down the parts of the corporations that deny people coverage and more than make up for it too.
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Post by Zinegata »

Yeah, take out the middle man and you save a lot. The insurance companies are the middle man.
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Re: UHC is fiscal conservatism.

Post by RobbyPants »

Psychic Robot wrote:How can it be that countries with provide health care for their citizens as a part of government spending manage to only spend, on average, a few more percent of their GDP on health care? A conundrum, but one easily explained.
Another part has to deal with how insurance pools work. The more you add unhealthy people to the pool, the more the average cost per person goes up. The more healty people you add, the more the cost goes down. So, while insuring everybody makes the system cost more in total, the average cost per person goes down. This is further offset by the fact that you now have everyone chipping in, because now everyone's insured.

In short, average costs go down and the system pulls in more money. It becomes a lot more manageable.
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Post by Sashi »

"Fiscal Conservative" is a euphamism. Specifically, it stands for "I like rich people and want to cut their taxes, damn the consequences". Extending unemployment benefits is fundamentally the same as extending the Bush Tax Cuts: there is money that people will have if you extend it, and won't if you don't. The only difference is that in one case it goes to buy food and shelter, and in the other it goes to buy private school and luxury cars.

Plus, I really hate all the Fiscal Conservatives who are Very Serious about fighting off Socialism. Health insurance is fundamentally socialist. That's the way insurance works. You pay $X into a giant pool of money that goes to pay for other people's problems, so that if you ever have a problem that costs $[>>X], that giant pool of money will pay for you.
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Post by RobbyPants »

Sashi wrote:Plus, I really hate all the Fiscal Conservatives who are Very Serious about fighting off Socialism. Health insurance is fundamentally socialist. That's the way insurance works. You pay $X into a giant pool of money that goes to pay for other people's problems, so that if you ever have a problem that costs $[>>X], that giant pool of money will pay for you.
I think their biggest complaint is more of government control of these resources and/or mandatory participation. I'm not saying these are good complaints, but they will draw the line there.

Frankly, it's always struck me as more of an issue of the haves wanting to kick the have-nots to the curb and away from their money.
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Post by Psychic Robot »

"Fiscal Conservative" is a euphamism. Specifically, it stands for "I like rich people and want to cut their taxes, damn the consequences". Extending unemployment benefits is fundamentally the same as extending the Bush Tax Cuts: there is money that people will have if you extend it, and won't if you don't. The only difference is that in one case it goes to buy food and shelter, and in the other it goes to buy private school and luxury cars.

Plus, I really hate all the Fiscal Conservatives who are Very Serious about fighting off Socialism. Health insurance is fundamentally socialist. That's the way insurance works. You pay $X into a giant pool of money that goes to pay for other people's problems, so that if you ever have a problem that costs $[>>X], that giant pool of money will pay for you.
Fiscal conservatism is the radical notion that the government doesn't have infinite money just because it can print an unlimited number of dollars.
Last edited by Psychic Robot on Sat Dec 04, 2010 12:09 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by CatharzGodfoot »

Psychic Robot wrote:
"Fiscal Conservative" is a euphamism. Specifically, it stands for "I like rich people and want to cut their taxes, damn the consequences". Extending unemployment benefits is fundamentally the same as extending the Bush Tax Cuts: there is money that people will have if you extend it, and won't if you don't. The only difference is that in one case it goes to buy food and shelter, and in the other it goes to buy private school and luxury cars.

Plus, I really hate all the Fiscal Conservatives who are Very Serious about fighting off Socialism. Health insurance is fundamentally socialist. That's the way insurance works. You pay $X into a giant pool of money that goes to pay for other people's problems, so that if you ever have a problem that costs $[>>X], that giant pool of money will pay for you.
Fiscal conservatism is the radical notion that the government doesn't have infinite money just because it can print an unlimited number of dollars.
This is true, but "fiscal conservatism" has very little to do with "Fiscal Conservative".
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Post by Severian »

I'm not convinced. I'd rather see public healthcare limited to those who absolutely cannot afford it.
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Post by Grek »

Severian wrote:I'm not convinced. I'd rather see public healthcare limited to those who absolutely cannot afford it.
Even if that means depressing the economy compared to the alternative?
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Post by Severian »

Grek wrote:
Severian wrote:I'm not convinced. I'd rather see public healthcare limited to those who absolutely cannot afford it.
Even if that means depressing the economy compared to the alternative?
Does it? That's what I'm not convinced of. The government is pretty bad at spending our tax money properly(though there does need to be care available for America's poorest).
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Post by K »

CatharzGodfoot wrote: This is true, but "fiscal conservatism" has very little to do with "Fiscal Conservative".
Right. When you capitalize it like that it means cutting social programs, Reaganomics and supply side economics, and massive deficit spending for wars and foreign adventurism.

Since that's the opposite of the uncapitalized version, you can imagine why people get confused.
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Post by Psychic Robot »

This is true, but "fiscal conservatism" has very little to do with "Fiscal Conservative".
That's true.
I'd rather see public healthcare limited to those who absolutely cannot afford it.
In theory, I agree. And we need market reforms to go along with health insurance reforms to help keep costs down. (Tort reform, breaking up state-imposed insurance monopolies, and free trade between the United States and Canadian drug companies being three important steps to take.) And I would love to see an insurance system that worked in the same way that other insurance does: you pay a small monthly fee and you're covered in the event of catastrophe. The rest of your medical expenses (doctor's visits and medications) should be out-of-pocket. They should also be cheap, with costs driven down due to market forces.

But, unfortunately, this only works in theory. People nowadays expect health insurance companies to pay for their doctor's visits, and the idea of them not doing that will throw them in a panic (rightfully so): right now, doctor's visits are costly because high prices are empowered by insurance policies. (Not to mention malpractice insurance, the vast cost of medical schooling, and defensive medicine driving up costs. But that's another beast altogether.)

I dunno, I'm just rambling at this point. Yes, I'd like to see free market health care, but the profit motive keeps health insurance from being affordable, and it results in shitty things like "denial of coverage" and "pre-existing conditions means you can't have nice things."
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Post by Sashi »

Severian wrote:I'm not convinced. I'd rather see public healthcare limited to those who absolutely cannot afford it.
Last month I got a letter from my insurance company saying my premium was increasing by $4/month to pay for people too poor to afford health care. There is literally no difference between me paying insurance premiums to a company and taxes to a government, the question is just who's in charge and what structure the people in charge have.

There's been a lot of sturm und drang about universal health care, with (I think) the express purpose of completely obfuscates the fundamental issue, which is that health insurance is all about making a giant pile of money and then doling it out to people. And really all we have to decide is three things:

• How to keep the giant pile of money from dwindling so fast.
• Who is in charge of the giant pile of money.
• How much of that giant pile of money the people in charge are allowed to keep for themselves.
Last edited by Sashi on Sat Dec 04, 2010 1:23 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by Maj »

Sashi wrote:There is literally no difference between me paying insurance premiums to a company and taxes to a government
Except the whole profit thing.

If the government makes a profit on its programs, it's supposed to somehow get back to the taxpayer. If the insurance company makes a profit, it goes into a few people's paychecks.
Severian wrote:I'd rather see public healthcare limited to those who absolutely cannot afford it.
The biggest problem with this is that the people who absolutely cannot afford it are also the ones who tend to be the least healthy.

You need the good health of those who can afford it to be part of the program to offset the overall costs.
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Post by Severian »

Psychic Robot wrote: In theory, I agree. And we need market reforms to go along with health insurance reforms to help keep costs down. (Tort reform, breaking up state-imposed insurance monopolies, and free trade between the United States and Canadian drug companies being three important steps to take.) And I would love to see an insurance system that worked in the same way that other insurance does: you pay a small monthly fee and you're covered in the event of catastrophe. The rest of your medical expenses (doctor's visits and medications) should be out-of-pocket. They should also be cheap, with costs driven down due to market forces.
I'm cool with all this
But, unfortunately, this only works in theory. People nowadays expect health insurance companies to pay for their doctor's visits, and the idea of them not doing that will throw them in a panic (rightfully so): right now, doctor's visits are costly because high prices are empowered by insurance policies. (Not to mention malpractice insurance, the vast cost of medical schooling, and defensive medicine driving up costs. But that's another beast altogether.)
That will happen, but it'll be temporary. There are ways we can mitigate the problem but it'll have to happen to eventually if we slay the beasts that need slaying.
I dunno, I'm just rambling at this point. Yes, I'd like to see free market health care, but the profit motive keeps health insurance from being affordable, and it results in shitty things like "denial of coverage" and "pre-existing conditions means you can't have nice things."
This is shitty, no doubt, but it's less a problem with the free market itself, and more a problem with the specifics of how our healthcare system is set up, and those can be solved without resorting to UHC.

Sashi - I'm sorry but I don't understand what it is you're trying to say to me.
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Post by Psychic Robot »

and those can be solved without resorting to UHC.
How do you propose fixing these issues while keeping premiums, copays, and deductibles from being too high to afford? Any type of government regulation on the industry will result in the costs being passed on to the consumer.
Last edited by Psychic Robot on Sat Dec 04, 2010 1:47 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by Maj »

Severian wrote:but it's less a problem with the free market itself, and more a problem with human greed
;)
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Post by Sashi »

Severian wrote:Does it? That's what I'm not convinced of. The government is pretty bad at spending our tax money properly(though there does need to be care available for America's poorest).
This is a flat out lie. I'm not saying you are lying, I'm saying you have been taught a lie.

When Fiscal Conservatives say that government "wastes" money or spends money "irresponsibly", that's code for things like Welfare and Disability. i.e. "they gave my money to poor people". Like buying beer your friend likes and you don't, it's arguably wasteful. But Fiscal Conservatives paint this like the government is buying beer and dumping it in the street.
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Post by Sashi »

Maj wrote:
Sashi wrote:There is literally no difference between me paying insurance premiums to a company and taxes to a government
Except the whole profit thing.
Technically, since my insurance company is a nonprofit, there's not even that difference.

What I meant, though, is that calling it "universal healthcare" or the "public option" doesn't make it magically free, I'm still paying for it whether the payment is called a "premium" or a "tax".
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Post by Severian »

Psychic Robot wrote: How do you propose fixing these issues while keeping premiums, copays, and deductibles from being too high to afford? Any type of government regulation on the industry will result in the costs being passed on to the consumer.
That's a good question, and it's way too big for me to fully answer without spending a decade researching it. Fixing the issues you mentioned earlier(malpractice insurance defensive medicine insurance monoplies etc) would drive costs down, for instance. And like I said earlier there needs to be a public safety net for people who can't afford healthcare on their own.
This is a flat out lie. I'm not saying you are lying, I'm saying you have been taught a lie.

When Fiscal Conservatives say that government "wastes" money or spends money "irresponsibly", that's code for things like Welfare and Disability. i.e. "they gave my money to poor people". Like buying beer your friend likes and you don't, it's arguably wasteful. But Fiscal Conservatives paint this like the government is buying beer and dumping it in the street.
We spent over a trillion dollars on the military this year. Are you going to tell me that's a responsible use of taxpayer money?
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Post by Sashi »

Spending the money differently from how I want them to spend it is different from waste.
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Post by cthulhu »

Severian wrote:I'm not convinced. I'd rather see public healthcare limited to those who absolutely cannot afford it.
Why? The UK spends as much public money on providing universal coverage as the US government does (on a per capita basis) on medicare and medicaid. (Okay, it's 0.1% of GDP more. Oh noes. Reality is, economics of scale and price fixing allow the UK to massively drive down costs, and they also subsidise education).

If the public can provide universal healthcare for the same price as the public can provide care for the poor, why the FUCK would you not take option A. You'd have to be mentally ill.
Fixing the issues you mentioned earlier(malpractice insurance defensive medicine insurance monoplies etc) would drive costs down, for instance
This is a load of fucking shit. Insurance and torts are respnsible for about 2.4% of US medical costs. Big fucking whoop. And the defensive medicine thing? ALSO A LIE. What's ACTUALLY happening is the doctor gets a kickback when he refers you to an MRI from the MRI operators. Blam! MRI referrals go right up - and this is the new 'improved' version after doctors are now limited from referring you to their own facility for an MRI scan.

They get kickbacks from the pharmacetical companies for prescribing medicines too - this isn't defensive medicine, this is 'I want to collect my commission'

Realistically your options are

a) Be like america!

B) Be like the UK!

C) Be like France!

D) Be like Canada!

All of these have advantages and disadvantages. America does have the finest cancer treatment programs in the world and lower waiting times in the system than the other three, but it does cost more. A lot more! and delivers no better outcomes.

I'm not sure what the best idea is - France has a great system with the highest patient and doctor satisfaction scores going, but it costs a lot. The UK and Canada have systems designed by technocrats to drive out effective, universal coverage at the lowest cost. As a result they are impersonal sausage grinders, but their results are hard to argue with from a cost/benefit perspective.
Last edited by cthulhu on Sat Dec 04, 2010 2:50 am, edited 4 times in total.
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Post by Surgo »

Not to be the bullshit "FUD guy", but doesn't the UK system have 'death panels' -- ie, if your treatment costs more than $40k or whatever they won't cover it?

I heard that from a guest lecture this term...not sure on exact numbers or if it's completely true or not.
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