Getting a WoF system for D&D down to a manageable size.

[Lago PARANOIA]

So as a thought experiment I have proposed several Winds of Fate systems and one thing that keeps coming to mind is that they are really space-hungry in terms of amount of space you have to devote in a book, especially if you want to use the Green Arrow system--which everyone seems to want to use anyway. So, here are some suggestions:

• Use keywords and standardize powers as much as possible. The power schemes for 3E and 4E are such big wastes of space that it's unreal.
• You have to have some degree of power incest. The obvious way is to make everyone multiclassed, but a lot of people would then complain about not being able to be single-classed. I think the best way to accomplish this would be to have class-specific and source-general powers. That is, Wizards, Warlocks, Swordmages, and Artificers have half of their powers class-specific and the other half of their powers is drawn to a source-specific pool. Assuming that the source-specific pool is twice the size of a class list, you could chop off 25% of necessary writing. I think the best approach would be to use both and encourage people to multiclass, that way players would have power lists different from other people.
• Allow people to double up on some powers in the WoF matrix. You can call them 'signature' powers or whatnot. Obviously you want to limit the amount of times and powers people can double up on, otherwise you may as well just shrink the matrix.
• Limit the size of the WoF Matrix. I think that the maximum amount of distinct powers people can handle in a turn is 6 and I think that having more than 4 separate rows that are significantly different from each other makes a character feel too arbitrary.
• Introduce power-altering options. After the fiasco in 4E I am extremely leery about allowing these, but just an 'elemental admixture' feat or expansion option--especially if you made several of 'em--would make it feel like there are a lot more blaster builds than you could get out of using class
• Make the power selection by level conic shaped to go along with the WoF Matrix. There are two facts about D&D and WoF that you can use to your advantage. The first is that if you gradually increase the size of your WoF matrix as people gain levels, you don't need to print as many lower-level powers as higher-level ones. The second one is that a lot more people play campaigns at low levels than at high levels. I'm not a math guy so I can't tell you the overall effect, but if you use these two facts together you can shrink the size of your Powers section.
• Abandon the idea of people getting 9th level powers/spells. It might be too much of a sacred cow to slay, but I feel that 9 levels of spells is too fine of a division to automatically tell the difference in power level between each spell level. I mean, everyone can tell the difference between 2nd level spells and 3rd level spells, but 6th level spells and 7th level spells are harder. I think D&D can actually comfortably fit 6 distinct levels of spells, but this might be too much of a sacred cow to slay.
• Allow people to stick lower-level powers in higher-level slots. Again, I'm really leery of this practice since this can make it such that people can gimp their characters. You probably want to put a limit on this.
• Print multi-purpose powers. Summon Monster III gets stale nowhere near as fast as Fireball.

[BearsAreBrown]

Meta-Matrix abilities. Look at Yugioh, 1/4th the cards contain a rider effect that allows you to change your hand. These can be as simple as "Reroll the matrix die," or maybe "Roll your Matrix die again, this will be your result next turn." The other upside to abilities like this is they can be added to all classes ability lists guilt free.

[*] Print multi-purpose powers. Summon Monster III gets stale nowhere near as fast as Fireball.

This is the most powerful of your points I think. It can go two directions, either multi-use powers like Summon Monster or Matter Manipulation or allow powers to be used multiple ways. Print the Volcano Throw ability as something that can be used as a Standard Action or as an interrupt. When you choose the ability you must place each action type on your Matrix individually.

[Lago PARANOIA]

I'm not a fan of meta-matrix abilities as far as WoF-shrinkage goes, because if you're using them to the point where you get an appreciable saving in space you may as well just shrink the matrix.

Also enough meta-matrix abilities can of course shrink the randomness to the point where you lose all advantages of the system in the first place. This is why in Yugioh cards that have a rider effect that allow you to change your hand are rare, usually have some kind of negative effect and top tier. Moreover, despite having a database of literally thousands of cards there are only about 10 viable archetypes in the metagame anyway (and ALL of these archetypes have a large amount of search in them) and they have a lot of card incest anyway. Yugioh is a perfect example of why you don't want many metadeck abilities--or preferably you don't want any metadeck abilities period.

[BearsAreBrown]

It was wrong for me to say 1/4th the cards, it's more correct to say 1/4th the metagame, as you point out. I agree with you that metadeck abilities that allow you to pick a specific maneuver have no place in WoF but what is wrong with a reroll or a the ability to plan your next round?

[Lago PARANOIA]

If you want to plan for your next round, that's why the next WoF roll (after your initial one) should be at the end of your turn. That way when other players are declaring their actions you can mull over your options and monitor the tactical situation.

You don't want to use rerolls because the size of the WoF matrix makes it such that rerolls make it very likely that a player will get to spam the row they want multiple times. Combats where a player got exactly what they wanted a priori for 3 or 4 out of 4 rounds would be really common, which defeats the point of the system.

[Josh_Kablack]

You have to have some degree of power incest. The obvious way is to make everyone multiclassed, but a lot of people would then complain about not being able to be single-classed. I think the best way to accomplish this would be to have class-specific and source-general powers. That is, Wizards, Warlocks, Swordmages, and Artificers have half of their powers class-specific and the other half of their powers is drawn to a source-specific pool. Assuming that the source-specific pool is twice the size of a class list, you could chop off 25% of necessary writing. I think the best approach would be to use both and encourage people to multiclass, that way players would have power lists different from other people.

I think you actually want to go further here. Say you're building a Swordmage, which is an Arcane Defender.

You get your WoF entries from the Swordmage class list, which has a bunch of swording and teleportation moves on it. But you also get to pick up lists of powers from the Defender Sets - which has slightly more generic defender-y powers, like an attack that renders a foe unable to make attacks that aren't against you for a round. Then you also get to pick up lists from the Arcane Sets, which have somewhat more arcane powers, like Dispelling Strike or Fireball. And then you also get to pick powers from the Universal Set - which has really generic stuff anyone can use, like "Hustle: move at an increased rate", "Charge: make a double move and a melee attack", "Recovery Strike: make an attack and gain Temp HP"


This does sort of make everyone multiclassed, and any two characters who share both Source and "Role" will likely have notable overlap, but it does allow you to get by with fewer individual powers for each class, and allows players to more easily develop an idea of what other players' characters may be capable of.

[Lago PARANOIA]

I don't know how I feel about having 'universal' or 'role' powers because they invariably end up being low-grade kiddy shit because they don't have a specific phlebtonium source behind them. Unless you wanted to do something like write up a byline for Recovery Strike that has an additional effect for Divine or Transcendental heroes... but at that point, why not just write extra powers?

[BearsAreBrown]

Expanding on the concept of writing Powers which can be used in different ways at different action costs. Simply expanding all 'elemental' powers to be chosen as any individual element will grant many more choices at low writing cost. If Energy Wall can be a Standard action or an Immediate Action, when the player spends an Ability Known on Energy Wall he can choose two add either or both of these powers to his matrix. When they're added, he can also choose which element the energy wall it. Allowing him to mix and match adds even more variety, having a Fire Wall as a standard action and an Earth Wall as an immediate action.

[Lago PARANOIA]

While it's not inherently imbalanced to use the WoF for different action costs, it does change gameplay enough that you have to specifically allot for it.

Because if someone has the option of loading their WoF matrix with nothing but standard actions in the rows OR half standard actions and half off-action powers, they're always going to pick the latter. At that point you may as well just have a column devoted to off-action powers. And while it can cut down on the amount of powers that you need to write, you have to ask yourself whether effectively giving people extra attacks is worth the savings in space. Considering the problems D&D has persistently had with nested interrupts and balancing multiple attacks, I'd want to look for another way if at all possible.

[Emerald]

I think you actually want to go further here. Say you're building a Swordmage, which is an Arcane Defender.

You get your WoF entries from the Swordmage class list, which has a bunch of swording and teleportation moves on it. But you also get to pick up lists of powers from the Defender Sets - which has slightly more generic defender-y powers, like an attack that renders a foe unable to make attacks that aren't against you for a round. Then you also get to pick up lists from the Arcane Sets, which have somewhat more arcane powers, like Dispelling Strike or Fireball.

If we're already making source and role lists, why not just do everything on a keyword system? There are no "Swordmage powers," but rather Swordmages get to pick powers with the keywords Arcane, Defender, Teleportation, and, say, [energy type of player's choice]. Since classes are basically defined by role+source+schtick anyway, you might as well formalize it that way.

Then, drawing on the discussion about "signature powers," being able to choose certain WoF powers at certain times, and on-turn/out-of-turn powers, your class could be what determines how you do those things. Swordmages can choose to use a [Teleportation] power they didn't roll, Pyromancers can pick one [Fire] power and put it in their matrix up to three times, Scouts can use [Movement] and [Teleportation] powers on others' turns (subject to whatever constraints you put on immediate action-type effects), and so forth. (Each class could have more than one feature like that, since you obviously wouldn't want to restrict any of those three features to certain classes; three class features, one of each, shouldn't be unmanageable.)

You'd multiclass, then, for particular themes--to build Nightcrawler, for instance you'd play a Swordmage/Scout so you can always have a teleport power ready thanks to Swordmage, and after you've bamfed in and attacked your target, you can teleport away on their turn if they try to attack you thanks to Scout.

Thoughts?

[MGuy]

So the "class" becomes an extra, permanent, ability? Sounds workable. How would it work for single class characters?

[Username17]

I still think that making a wheel quickly is more important than keeping the number of literal entries small. I think that the ability to remake your wheel should you lose your character sheet is even more important.

That's why I think that in general you should select powers that give you a whole column in your Wheel. Sure, you can introduce expansion options or something where you can swap individual maneuvers in and out, but asking people to recreate a 20 unit 2-dimensional array of arbitrary constitution from memory is unreasonable. Asking someone to recall what their five powers were is a lot more like what normal humans can actually do.

-Username17

[Emerald]

So the "class" becomes an extra, permanent, ability? Sounds workable. How would it work for single class characters?

Good question. Giving each class one out-of-turn option and either one multiple-copies-in-the-table option or one use-something-you-didn't-roll option would ensure everyone has the same sort of support, and single-class and multiclass characters should probably both get at least one of each. I can see a few ways to handle it:

1) Single-class PC gets two immediate abilities and two signature options, multiclass PCs choose one of each from each class.

2) Single-class PC gets two immediate abilities and two signature options, multiclass PCs choose among them as desired (all four from one class, half and half, etc.).

3) Single-class PC gets one immediate ability and one signature option, multiclass PCs choose one from one class and the other from the other.

4) Single-class PC gets one immediate ability and one signature option, multiclass PCs get both from each of their classes, and single-class PCs get some incentive not to multiclass, whatever that may be.

Option 2 gives the most customization but might result in multiclassing just being used to pick up extra keywords, making a Swordmage/Scout just a Swordmage + Scout powers. Option 4 isn't really workable, since that gets away from the "classes are just more options" thing and starts introducing things like PF favored class bullshit. Option 1 and 3 are basically the same, 1 just has more stuff to deal with than 3. 3 is what I think would work the best, but the best option would depend on the actual implementation.

[Lago PARANOIA]

If we're already making source and role lists, why not just do everything on a keyword system? There are no "Swordmage powers," but rather Swordmages get to pick powers with the keywords Arcane, Defender, Teleportation, and, say, [energy type of player's choice].

Because you actually want powers to be flavorful. A Wave Motion Blast ability that lets Monks, Paladins, and Sorcerers pick it up is going to have to feel very generic, because otherwise you're going to have some weird dissonance to the power like monks wondering why they're suddenly channeling arcane energy or paladins having a demonic aura while they're using it. Little eccentricities to powers like Glitterdust throwing in a free Faerie Fire is necessary unless you want to fall into the trap 4E fell into and making powers feel too similar. But those little eccentricities aren't appropriate for every archetype.

[Emerald]

Because you actually want powers to be flavorful. A Wave Motion Blast ability that lets Monks, Paladins, and Sorcerers pick it up is going to have to feel very generic, because otherwise you're going to have some weird dissonance to the power like monks wondering why they're suddenly channeling arcane energy or paladins having a demonic aura while they're using it. Little eccentricities to powers like Glitterdust throwing in a free Faerie Fire is necessary unless you want to fall into the trap 4E fell into and making powers feel too similar. But those little eccentricities aren't appropriate for every archetype.

That's the kind of power that sounds like it would be done by source, rather than role; presumably you wouldn't have a Wave Motion Blast ability that monks, paladins, and sorcerers get because paladins are divine, sorcerers are arcane, and monks are...whatever the hell they end up as. It's just like how clerics are similar to paladins in the theme of their spell lists (LG ones, anyway), druids are similar to rangers, sorcerers are similar to wizards, and so on--you can have a perfectly flavorful Smite Heretic or Call Lightning or Fireball power or whatever, and all of the similar-flavored classes get it. Wizards, wu jen, sorcerers, dread necromancers, and all the other arcane casters essentially have access to one big Arcane spell list due to all the overlap (and the designers saying in SpC "we're too lazy to write new spells for niche classes, pick appropriate ones") yet the non-wizards don't feel exactly the same, because the different subsets of spells they have access to are different, and because each caster has its own unique ability or two.

Sorcerers, wu jen, and warmages all casts the spells that makes the peoples fall down, but they have draconic stuff, elemental stuff, and warmage edge/free metamagic to let them do it differently (disregarding the fact that the latter two still suck despite said features, of course). Similarly, if your sorcerer has access to one energy keyword of his choice and has a Draconic Blood feature that lets him fill his matrix with multiple area energy spells, your warmage has access to all energy keywords and has a Warmage Edge feature that lets him use short-range area effects out of turn, and your wu jen has access to the energy keyword appropriate to his elemental specialty and has an Elemental Focus feature that lets him drop a rolled power for one of that energy keyword, you can stick the Wave Motion Blast power on the Arcane list and none of them will feel too same-y for having access to the same list.

When it comes to roles, admittedly they'd have to be a bit more bland because they'd be shared among sources, but then most role powers tend to be bland anyway. Tank powers buff HP, AC, energy resistances, etc., DPS powers add damage to your attacks, healer powers heal and remove status effects, and so on, and don't tend to have many flashy side effects as you do with the sources or other keywords. There's really only so many ways to fluff "You regain 5 HP," whether it's a cleric, paladin, monk, wizard, or fighter using it, and conversely "I'm now 20% harder to hit" works fine whether it's divine guidance, toughness, invisible armor, or whatever.

[Josh_Kablack]

Okay, I'm still iffy on the specifics of the WoF here.

Obviously, we are talking about a full matrix style WoF and not merely a "your roll must be this high" WoF.

Now there are a several possible options for how that matrix works.

1. Players select individual powers for their characters and then place each individual power into their character's matrix however the heck they want. This has the advantage of massive character customization but the disadvantage of really slow and confusing chargen. Further if you allow slot-swapping in game, this runs the risk of re-introducing option paralysis back into the game and defeating the entire point of using WoF.
2. Players select individual powers for their character and then place each individual power into their character's matrix according to strict rules for matrix placement. For example, the rules could be "attacks in the 1 & 2 columns", "crowd control in the 3 column" "buffs and debuffs in the 4 column", "terrain alteration in the 5 column" and nova moves in the "6 column". This has the advantage of other players knowing roughly what your move can do without needing to know the specifics, but has the disadvantage that a player must buy or build powersets in row major order to avoid blank slots. That's a significant loss of customization and a potentially problematic dilution of flavor.
3. Players select lists of powers that each auto-fill in a row on the WoF matrix. In this set up, Ken Masters selects "Basic Street Fighting" which gives him Jab on a 1, Short Kick on a 2, Strong Punch on a 3, Front kick on a 4, Fierce Punch on a 5 and Roundhouse on a 6. He then selects "Shotokan Karate" which gives him Sweep on a 1, Over-the-shoulder throw on a 2, Rolling Throw on a 3, Neck-Kick on a 4, Hurrican Kick on 5 and Rising Hurrican Kick on 6. He then selects Flaming Fists of Fire which gives him Fireball on a 1-2, Uppercut on a 3-4 <adjective> Fireball on a 5 and <adjective> Uppercut on 6. This has the advantages that chargen is really really fast, and that no matter what the roll on the die is, players always have a move selectable for each of their character's themes. This has the drawback that character customization is limited.
4. Players select lists of powers that each auto-fill in a row on the WoF matrix AND each list is written so that each columns has a specific tactical result. This has the advantages that character generation is lightning fast and players are roughly aware of each other's tactical capabilities on a round-by-round basis. It has the disadvantages that character customization is extremely limited and may even feel meaningless ( see "a 10d6 EB is always a 10d6 EB" or "All 4e powers are piddly damage" ) as each player is only choosing what flavor(s) of "Attack on a 1-2, Crowd Control on a 3, Buff Debuff on a 4, Terrain Alteration on a 5, and nova on a 6" their character gets.

So which of these are we even talking about?

[Dean]

I actually had an idea yesterday. What if you used a d12 (as 12 powers to me is a nice middle ground) and said that whatever you roll you can can use that power or either of the adjacent powers. So you have 12 powers, and every time you roll you get 3 options. It's the same number of choices as the 3X4 board that people propose a lot but with more variation to prevent it getting stale quickly. 12 and 1 in this case count as adjacent.

[Ice9]

If the matrix gives results like "If you roll a 3, you are doing Crowd Control this round, but you can pick the flavor", then count me out - I don't need a RNG to pick my tactics for me.

But I could live with "If you roll a 3, you are doing a Spectral move this round, but you can pick what type (Attack, CC, Buff, etc).".

What might be ideal, but would make the generation rules trickier, is something that gave a result like:
"If you roll a 3, you are doing either Attack, CC, or Nova, and it can be either Spectral or Earth-Elemental".
I.e. half the tactical options, each in two flavors. You would need to offset every other row/column during generation, however, and it gets tricky with odd numbers.

Also, I think player should have the option to rearrange their matrix, between adventures or maybe even between days. It shouldn't be necessary to be effective, but it should be a possibility.


On the other hand, an overlapping list like deanruel suggests might be a good way to do things. It wouldn't be compatible with specific tactical layouts on each row, but it would be simple and more compatible with "meta" abilities to adjust your roll without just letting you pick.

[Josh_Kablack]

But I could live with "If you roll a 3, you are doing a Spectral move this round, but you can pick what type (Attack, CC, Buff, etc).".

Knew I missed one, thanks.

• 5. Players select lists that auto-fill columns on the WoF Matrix. In this setup, Ken Masters puts the moves from "Basic Street Fighting" in his "1&2" column, the moves from "Shotokan Karate" in his 3-4 columns and the moves from "Flaming Fists of Fire" in his "5&6" columns. In this setup, the WoF roll chooses SfX only and characters can choose whichever move within that SfX is most appropriate to the current situation. The advantages are that chargen is still pretty fast and the player will feel that their tactical decisions are meaningful, the disadvantage is that there is little parity between characters, complex communication of abilities to other players and character may go through a string of fights without even getting to showcase one of their power themes.

And I'm still having a hard time seeing why you would want to use both ability swapping and a WoF matrix? If you want to swap abilities around, why not just put them on charges, cooldown, mana bar, at-will or other system?

I thought the whole idea of WoF is to limit option paralysis - and it achieves that by LIMITING OPTIONS. I wholly understand the desire to avoid limiting options, but that desire runs counter to the entire point of using WoF for resource management.

[PhoneLobster]

Small question.

As you know I've never been a fan of WoF, and think its a big pile of doo doo.

But seriously. Has anyone actually play tested any actual WoF system at all? I mean at all.

I may be wrong, but I am fairly certain almost ANY WoF system, especially anything beyond the barest minimum is going to be decidedly unpopular with the vast majority of players and will confuse and also anger them.

So really, I think a lot of the "fleshing out WoF" threads that seem to be fucking everywhere really need to take a step back, and START by "fleshing out" some sort of testable minimum system and putting it in front of some actual players who aren't invested in the idea that WoF will be automatically good because Frank likes it.

Certainly it will start giving you plenty of info regarding this "manageable size" question if you actually start trying to you know, practically manage it, in practice, with real people.

[Josh_Kablack]

Certainly it will start giving you plenty of info regarding this "manageable size" question if you actually start trying to you know, practically manage it, in practice, with real people.

Now that's just crazy talk.

[Lago PARANOIA]

Sorcerers, wu jen, and warmages all casts the spells that makes the peoples fall down, but they have draconic stuff, elemental stuff, and warmage edge/free metamagic to let them do it differently (disregarding the fact that the latter two still suck despite said features, of course). Similarly, if your sorcerer has access to one energy keyword of his choice and has a Draconic Blood feature that lets him fill his matrix with multiple area energy spells, your warmage has access to all energy keywords and has a Warmage Edge feature that lets him use short-range area effects out of turn, and your wu jen has access to the energy keyword appropriate to his elemental specialty and has an Elemental Focus feature that lets him drop a rolled power for one of that energy keyword, you can stick the Wave Motion Blast power on the Arcane list and none of them will feel too same-y for having access to the same list.

Oh, no doubt, that kind of thing is vital in making classes feel different enough; I just don't think that kind of granularity that you're proposing is necessary enough to justify the extra writing your system would need. If people really want that level of power choice then they can multiclass.

When it comes to roles, admittedly they'd have to be a bit more bland because they'd be shared among sources, but then most role powers tend to be bland anyway. Tank powers buff HP, AC, energy resistances, etc., DPS powers add damage to your attacks, healer powers heal and remove status effects, and so on, and don't tend to have many flashy side effects as you do with the sources or other keywords. There's really only so many ways to fluff "You regain 5 HP," whether it's a cleric, paladin, monk, wizard, or fighter using it, and conversely "I'm now 20% harder to hit" works fine whether it's divine guidance, toughness, invisible armor, or whatever.

From our experience with 4E, I think that those kinds of powers should be as limited as possible. Not just because that no matter what kind of fuck-off numbers you add to them they're still fundamentally boring, but because it requires extra tracking. Don't remove them all from the game, but certainly don't give such powers enough of a spotlight to justify having a system made to accommodate them. I think it's better to keep class or source-agnostic powers on the downlow, not give them a birthday party.

But seriously. Has anyone actually play tested any actual WoF system at all? I mean at all.

I've DMed quite a few 4E D&D games and I can tell you that one of the few points of excitements in an encounter is when a monster recharges one of their 'fuck-off' moves. Of course 4E uses a really simplified system and I roll the recharge option out in the open rather than keep it hidden like I think you're supposed to. But the random element of a monster getting a dazed (save ends) ranged burst back definitely adds tension.

Certainly it will start giving you plenty of info regarding this "manageable size" question if you actually start trying to you know, practically manage it, in practice, with real people.

We don't have direct information of manageable size from actual WoF systems, we only have it from other systems. 3E's system at low level is too small, at mid and high level it gets to be too much except for hardcore experts who've mastered the explicit and implicit power-sorting algorithms. So probably somewhere in the middle.

I strongly think that asking people to sort through more than 7 distinct but generically equal options in a round is way too much. Not even 3E D&D had that much choice, at least until level 11 or so.

I wholly understand the desire to avoid limiting options, but that desire runs counter to the entire point of using WoF for resource management.

It's a pretty easy sentiment to understand. I think that peoples' eyes are bigger than their stomachs and/or they intentionally want a system that will reward them for spending 5 minutes going through a list while wasting everyone else's time.

/snark

[Ice9]

I thought the whole idea of WoF is to limit option paralysis - and it achieves that by LIMITING OPTIONS. I wholly understand the desire to avoid limiting options, but that desire runs counter to the entire point of using WoF for resource management.

Limiting options during gameplay. To avoid option paralysis in combat. But you don't have to worry about option paralysis for something that happens between gaming sessions. If a player takes an hour or two fiddling around with their matrix between games, that isn't a problem. Not something that everyone has time for - which I is why I said it shouldn't be mandatory to be effective - but an option for people who like it.

I.e. building a Magic deck vs shuffling one.

[Emerald]

Oh, no doubt, that kind of thing is vital in making classes feel different enough; I just don't think that kind of granularity that you're proposing is necessary enough to justify the extra writing your system would need. If people really want that level of power choice then they can multiclass.

I'd think it would require less writing and granularity, not more. You just need to say fireball is, say, [Fire][Ranged][Area][Arcane], and don't need to decide that Wizards and Wu Jen get it and Sorcerers don't, or whatever. Of course, this all assumes that you're still using keywords for powers at all; if you're ditching the keyword/descriptor/subtype/etc. system of 3e entirely, then I can see why that would require more effort.

[PhoneLobster]

I've DMed quite a few 4E D&D games and I can tell you that one of the few points of excitements in an encounter is when a monster recharges one of their 'fuck-off' moves.

That does not sound like a WoF mechanic at all. It sounds like a somewhat randomized power cool down or charge up. That is NOT a WoF system.

I strongly think that asking people to sort through more than 7 distinct but generically equal options in a round is way too much.

Possibly. But you know how many "different but equal" options are required to have "option paralysis" of a potentially arbitrary length?.

Two.

Hell, a lot of my work involves sales directly to the public. I've seen people pull off option paralysis with ONE choice presented to them. And I've seen it last easily an hour.

The fact is that only the strictest of WoF implementations ACTUALLY genuinely eliminates option paralysis. By effectively removing the option.

And really removing options IS the ONLY way to actually remove option paralysis. There is NOT a "number below seven" that will eliminate it but still leave options, in fact you are barely even reducing the chance of option paralysis occurring.

And all in all, when did option paralysis become such a pressing problem? The choice costs involved in fighting it, the WoF system, are IMMENSE, are we really getting seriously justifiable pay backs from this?

And if we run with your "some number of equally viable choices less than 7, after applying WoF" are we getting anywhere at all?