West Marches campaigns...

JigokuBosatsu · Post by **JigokuBosatsu** » Thu Oct 13, 2011 3:46 pm

I was honestly surprised not to have seen a thread about this here. Either that or Googolo is not working.

Does anyone here have any experience with a West Marches style campaign, as detailed here? The basic premise is that instead of a static party, there is a large pool of characters. There is no specific adventure, but a frontierish area filled with hooks. The burden of finding these hooks, and following up on them, is all on the players.

Now, I know sandbox rp is nothing new(how else would the party have ended up in the Kingdom of Gelatinous Cubes in that game I MCed when was 10), but this just seemed like a cool approach. I ran across it when I was looking for some ideas on the Fallout campaign I'd like to run, and have been talking to a lady who had some success running one using the West Marches model.

I'm hoping a PA setting will strain belief a little less. I'm not sure I can say "This hex is full of..." (Rolls) "Grippli. Oh, sorry, that was a 7. Full of ropers!"

Username17 · Post by **Username17** » Thu Oct 13, 2011 3:54 pm

Ars Magica was set up to be played like that.

-Username17

JigokuBosatsu · Post by **JigokuBosatsu** » Thu Oct 13, 2011 4:00 pm

That's true, I forgot about that.

Everybody wanted to be a wizard, though, as I recall.

hogarth · Post by **hogarth** » Thu Oct 13, 2011 5:07 pm

Sandbox-ish games aren't for me, particularly. I like having more of a story when I play an RPG. I also prefer to not have players drift in and out of the game, if I can help it. And lastly it sounds like quite a bit of work for the GM to come up with dozens (hundreds?) of encounter areas before play begins. On the plus side, I very much like the idea of having the PCs be just about the only adventurers around; I generally go with this idea when I GM.

Paizo's Kingmaker adventure path is based on this sort of wilderness exploration model, for what it's worth.

talozin · Post by **talozin** » Thu Oct 13, 2011 5:08 pm

Before about 1980 or so, that was pretty much the way everyone played D&D. There's some material in the original DMG about how to track time in the campaign, and it only makes sense if you're dealing with multiple groups of characters and players in the same physical location.

The classical model is to do this as one vast dungeon rather than as a wilderness setting, where there are a bunch of different ways into the ruins of Castle Greyhawk and multiple different dungeon levels at each level of difficulty. But it's pretty much the same basic idea either way, and it works fine as long as you can plan pretty quickly. You don't have time to write up anything elaborate.

If you're going to try something like this, I recommend buying a bunch of old D&D dungeon modules and other adventures so you can recycle the dungeon maps in them for use in your own setting. It's a lot easier to say "hm, they're going to hit the Haunted Mansion -- I'll use the house map from 'Sinister Secret of Saltmarsh'" than it is to have to draw up new maps and populate them every time the PCs get to a dungeon.

JigokuBosatsu · Post by **JigokuBosatsu** » Thu Oct 13, 2011 5:29 pm

Cannibalizing different modules is a great idea.

One of the things about this is the bit where (as in Ars Magica) you have some flexibility in who's playing, and adding a player doesn't result in "You guys run into a paladin who really wants to join your club" but "Since you are going to see whether the old temple can be reclaimed, Bill the Paladin no longer sneers at you coming out of the brothel, but approaches you helmet in hand..." I realize there is a very fine line there, and you can make the latter happen with good DMing, it is the expectation of this happening from the get-go that makes the method cool.

At any rate, the important thing is that I am inspired by the idea. In a PA setting you can turn urban into wilderness very quickly- I'm basically just taking a map of downtown Portland and marking shit "Destroyed, reclaimed, destroyed, irradiated, rebuilt, full of Demilichespsychic brains in jars..." etc. So far I've only created one "dungeon" which I am basing off this. Should be fun.

tzor · Post by **tzor** » Thu Oct 13, 2011 5:39 pm

talozin wrote:Before about 1980 or so, that was pretty much the way everyone played D&D. There's some material in the original DMG about how to track time in the campaign, and it only makes sense if you're dealing with multiple groups of characters and players in the same physical location.

There was also a strange thing that happened (at least it did at RPI) which I would call "cloud gaming." Basically you had a number of very amorphous campaigns each with their own DM but players could migrate their characters across the various games.

JigokuBosatsu · Post by **JigokuBosatsu** » Thu Oct 13, 2011 5:42 pm

I will say that as far as response goes, everyone I've mentioned it to in person has said "Oh wow!" I can only manage what the response would have been if I'd just said "I want to start a regular rpg."

hogarth · Post by **hogarth** » Thu Oct 13, 2011 5:50 pm

JigokuBosatsu wrote:At any rate, the important thing is that I am inspired by the idea. In a PA setting you can turn urban into wilderness very quickly- I'm basically just taking a map of downtown Portland and marking shit "Destroyed, reclaimed, destroyed, irradiated, rebuilt, full of Demilichespsychic brains in jars..." etc. So far I've only created one "dungeon" which I am basing off this. Should be fun.

I also like the idea of running a campaign based in your local city; that what we always did in Villains & Vigilantes or Champions, for instance.

Come to think of it, a superhero game might work well with this type of setup (although it would probably be more "underworld exploration" than "wilderness exploration").

JigokuBosatsu · Post by **JigokuBosatsu** » Thu Oct 13, 2011 5:54 pm

Right! It makes it tons easier for improv, and for the players to visualize things. My setting will be slightly mythologized, so people can't blindside me with "I used to drink beer with the guy who ran the pawn shop on this street and he had a huge gun stash, I'm going there."

talozin · Post by **talozin** » Thu Oct 13, 2011 5:55 pm

Another thing you may want to experiment with is the Dark Sun campaign idea of character stables. This is another thing that used to be a lot more common at the dawn of RPG time -- players have 4-6 different characters apiece and depending on what's happening at any given session, they play a different one. So if Alice and Bob and Charlie all want to go explore the Temple of the Mutant Rats, Dave isn't screwed because he plays the 12th level Gatling Gunner -- if he's free that night and wants to play, he can play his 2nd level Knife Skulker instead.

Since you'll be scheduling sessions in advance, this'll even work out OK with fairly involved character generation.

Grek · Post by **Grek** » Thu Oct 13, 2011 9:36 pm

Our DM had encounter tables of 100+ for every region. Most of them were empty, and if we beat an encounter, he'd cross it off and that roll would become a "safe, nothing happens" encounter.

The only big problem was A] that it was too hard to keep people at the same level and B] too many people would show up to a session.

Ikeren · Post by **Ikeren** » Thu Oct 13, 2011 11:46 pm

I'm running a game like that online, and one offline as well. It is very strongly modelled off of Everquest 1, and Baldur's Gate 1.

hogarth · Post by **hogarth** » Fri Oct 14, 2011 4:40 am

Grek wrote:The only big problem was A] that it was too hard to keep people at the same level and B] too many people would show up to a session.

There's something to be said for having a regular party as opposed to having players waft in and out. For instance, if Joe's character got a sweet magic carpet as his share of the treasure and then Joe never showed up again, I'd be peeved.

Username17 · Post by **Username17** » Fri Oct 14, 2011 4:58 am

tzor wrote:
talozin wrote:Before about 1980 or so, that was pretty much the way everyone played D&D. There's some material in the original DMG about how to track time in the campaign, and it only makes sense if you're dealing with multiple groups of characters and players in the same physical location.
There was also a strange thing that happened (at least it did at RPI) which I would call "cloud gaming." Basically you had a number of very amorphous campaigns each with their own DM but players could migrate their characters across the various games.

Cloud Gaming became essentially impossible as rule variants accumulated and the chances of a character being made with rules that were used by the next MC were very low. 3e actually promised (and delivered) better character migration than 2nd edition AD&D, which is one of the reasons I became such a strong advocate of it.

-Username17

Grek · Post by **Grek** » Fri Oct 14, 2011 7:45 pm

hogarth wrote:
Grek wrote:The only big problem was A] that it was too hard to keep people at the same level and B] too many people would show up to a session.
There's something to be said for having a regular party as opposed to having players waft in and out. For instance, if Joe's character got a sweet magic carpet as his share of the treasure and then Joe never showed up again, I'd be peeved.

I'm talking like 10 people all wanting to play at once. It was a nightmare.

Bill Bisco: Isometric Imp · Mon Oct 17, 2011 4:51 am

I am actually going to restart a campaign of mine that is similar to the West Marches Style:

The details are below:

Name: Black Marches
System: D&D 3.5
Format: OpenRPG with Skype or Teamspeak
Material Allowed: All Wotc 3.5 and more, see Here
Starting Level: 1 , this will increase as the campaign continues. If you want to play an LA race, you may opt to do a 1 time character reset when you gain levels.
Maximum Players: Unlimited
Campaign Length: Intended to last for years.
Other Rules: Please see Here

I will be running a game this Tuesday and Wednesday at 5 PM Pacific on the OpenRPG Black Star Games Server. If you are unable to make it then, continue checking the site, adventures will continue to be advertised Here

It'd be great to see some of you.

OgreBattle · Post by **OgreBattle** » Mon Oct 17, 2011 6:35 am

Opportunity party members, going into a world to explore in any direction you want, sounds like an MMO on paper.

Would you say this puts less stress on the DM? Would this be recommended for newer DMs as it's less about consistency or an overarching plot and more just refereeing their actions.

OgreBattle · Post by **OgreBattle** » Mon Oct 17, 2011 6:37 am

Opportunity party members, going into a world to explore in any direction you want, accomplishing goals but not changing the world for other players, sounds like an MMO on paper.

Would you say this puts less stress on the DM? Would this be recommended for newer DMs as it's less about consistency or an overarching plot and more just refereeing their actions.

Bill Bisco: Isometric Imp · Mon Oct 17, 2011 1:18 pm

I would absolutely recommend it for newer DMs as it gives the DM a large amount of freedom and helps them learn to improvise adventures. You can always have an overarching plot if desired.

cthulhudarren · Post by **cthulhudarren** » Mon Oct 17, 2011 1:19 pm

I read about the Westmarch campaign ideas with interest. If your party loves Sandbox, then I think it is great. Some folks demand a story and that is different. My own group of players is a mixture of both so that makes things more challenging.

JigokuBosatsu · Post by **JigokuBosatsu** » Mon Oct 17, 2011 2:29 pm

I think it requires more work on the DM's part in the setup, but once it gets going more of the burden is put on the players.

Ikeren · Post by **Ikeren** » Mon Oct 17, 2011 4:12 pm

Would you say this puts less stress on the DM? Would this be recommended for newer DMs as it's less about consistency or an overarching plot and more just refereeing their actions.

Yeah; lots of up front development, minimal maitenance. Whereas my previous campaign I'd have to put in 2-3 hours each week we played

echoVanguard · Post by **echoVanguard** » Mon Oct 17, 2011 5:22 pm

hogarth wrote:I also like the idea of running a campaign based in your local city; that what we always did in Villains & Vigilantes or Champions, for instance.

We did this recently in a Dresden Files RPG game, and it's been a blast.

echo

nockermensch · Post by **nockermensch** » Fri Jul 20, 2012 1:56 pm

I'm reviving this thread since I found about this kind of campaign just now, after reading the House Rules thread.

My first reaction to this campaign mode was "wow, a setup like this could probably get me DMing/playing D&D again!" since my old group fell apart from scheduling conflicts.

But then I got two problems, one of logistic, other of philosophy:

1) The logistic problem: How do I deal with having to interrupt an adventure due to the unavoidable "it's like 2AM and we have to work tomorrow" problem? The old solution of stopping the game at that point and then resuming next session would kill the flexibility aspect of a West Marches game.

2) The philosophical problem: With the PCs initiating all the adventures, they are "adventurers" in the hardcore sense applied to the East India Company: "here's a land full of exotic green people: lets kill them and take their stuff."

Suggestions to address those? My first idea regarding 2) was to use only pure evil or mindless critters, but then I realized I'd be DMing essentially Diablo.