Conversations To Have With Your Kids

Ancient History · Post by **Ancient History** » Mon Dec 12, 2011 12:33 pm

I was thinking of unusual "talks" needed for children these days. Yes, there are the "birds & the bees" and drugs - I can't speak for any of you, but in my upbringing these discussions were brief, awkward, and devolved into me watching instructional videos along in a room or signed up for a special class - but this is the twenty-teens, and there are so many stranger things parents should take time to address with their kids.

Internet Rules - Or, how to avoid doing stupid shit. Key aspects are recognizing spam mail, not giving out personal information, not downloading everything, routine maintenance, and why browsing internet porn in a public place is uncouth.

Cosmetic Surgery - In moderation, and always with careful forethought, when done by a skilled (and sober) practitioner and in a clean place with clean tools, there is nothing wrong with getting a tattoo, piercing, augmentation, implant, etc. However, kids need to know some of the realities of this kind of thing - specifically, emphasize "don't get someone not a doctor to inject silicone into your ass/dick/tits/etc." Really, an entire sub-lecture on why penis enlargement as it currently exists tends to be dangerous and sub-optimal from both an efficacy and operational use viewpoint should probably be addressed to boys. Girls can perhaps be encouraged to write an essay on why Barbie is a bulimic little plastic ho-bag.

Do Not Copy Wikipedia - Basically, this is the art of telling a child or teenager that not every article is perfectly accurate, and that if they copy and paste from wikipedia articles they will be caught. Ideally, it would include a brief section on showing the child how to access research sources they might not normally deal with, or at least how to confirm the information in blog posts before they start a rant that gets them charged with cyberbullying.

Kaelik · Post by **Kaelik** » Mon Dec 12, 2011 5:45 pm

You should change the name of part 2. It's not cosmetic surgery unless they knock you the fuck out. Which means most of your examples about piercings/tattoos/penis enlargement/non surgical injections/some implants, are not surgery, and you should expand the category.

sabs · Post by **sabs** » Mon Dec 12, 2011 7:00 pm

Do Not Take Pictures of your Junk.
Yes, he/she is the love of your life, yes, he/she is totally awesome, and would never betray your trust or break your heart. Except that of course, they totally would. If you're under 18 don't do it at all. If you're over 18, understand that it will get out, and everyone you don't want to see it, will see it. Including every future employer, the girl/guy you're actually going to marry/live in sin with.

Maj · Post by **Maj** » Mon Dec 12, 2011 7:01 pm

I don't see much difference between Internet Rules and the etiquette talks my mom gave me. The medium is different, but the same idea of consideration and personal safety still apply.

Also, Do Not Copy Wikipedia deals with plagiarism, which is something my mom discussed with me at length after I did it when I wrote my first report ever - using books.

How to use the library (and thus the books in it) might not be a bad lecture, though. My sister missed that one, so when she hit college and was only allowed to use three internet sources in writing her papers, she had problems.

JigokuBosatsu · Post by **JigokuBosatsu** » Tue Dec 13, 2011 5:05 pm

I got the birds and the bees early, and with the help of some very salacious encyclopedias. So the mechanical stuff was fine. What I didn't get is the part about relationships and how they should be healthy... the birds are retarded and the bees are fucking psycho.

Ancient History · Post by **Ancient History** » Tue Dec 13, 2011 6:12 pm

"There comes a point in every parent's life when they have to sit down with their child and explain the birds and the bees and the flowers, and the birds that look like bees and the flowers that prefer other flowers, and the bees who prefer artificial flowers and the birds that like to get caught in spiderwebs, and the flowers that like to look at pictures of birds that look like bees caught in spiderwebs while self-pollinating..."

Koumei · Post by **Koumei** » Wed Dec 14, 2011 4:00 am

"These days we learn how to use computers from our kids. My teenage son taught me how to plug it all in, how to switch it on, how to use Google, how to delete the search history, how to delete the Internet history, how to delete the Temporary Internet Files, how to hide folders and password protect them, how to clean the monitor, how to clean the keyboard, how to clean the desk between the monitor and keyboard..."

Cynic · Post by **Cynic** » Wed Dec 14, 2011 4:05 am

I'm having a discussion with a lot of people on facebook about gender and sexual identity.

There are couple of articles floating around about a 14 year old who after years of psych therapy started geting hormonal treatment to change gender.

I've kinda started throwing in random bits of info to my 5 year old that sometimes people don't feel like what they look like.

Here is the aforementioned article.

Josh_Kablack · Post by **Josh_Kablack** » Wed Dec 14, 2011 4:21 am

Cynic wrote:There are couple of articles floating around about a 14 year old who after years of psych therapy started geting hormonal treatment to change gender.

That's a tricky one. Between knowing some transgender folks and remembering how confusing adolescence is in general, I'm rather ambivalent about that. I hope that time proves the family and doctor right in their decision, but it's just not going to be an easy transition for the teenager, especially considering existing societal prejudices.

I've kinda started throwing in random bits of info to my 5 year old that sometimes people don't feel like what they look like.

That much I am wholeheartedly and unreservedly in favor of.

Cynic · Post by **Cynic** » Wed Dec 14, 2011 5:15 am

Josh: The science is definitely in its baby form. There needs to be a lot done before it is truly viable.

But, I think it is, at least, a good step forward.

Gender identity is today's issue that needs to have more attention. With attention, maybe we can work towards acceptance and appreciation.

DSMatticus · Post by **DSMatticus** » Wed Dec 14, 2011 5:43 am

Kablack wrote: That's a tricky one. Between knowing some transgender folks and remembering how confusing adolescence is in general, I'm rather ambivalent about that. I hope that time proves the family and doctor right in their decision, but it's just not going to be an easy transition for the teenager, especially considering existing societal prejudices.

It's not helped by the fact that the sooner you start the more successful it is. On one hand, starting early alters your development more; on the other hand, young people are stupid.

Kaelik · Post by **Kaelik** » Wed Dec 14, 2011 6:14 am

Cynic wrote:Josh: The science is definitely in its baby form. There needs to be a lot done before it is truly viable.

But, I think it is, at least, a good step forward.

He's not talking about the science.

He's talking about 14 year olds being extremely fucking stupid in general, and not knowing what the fuck they want, and being at the beginning stages of hormones that fuck with their thinking.

He's ambivalent about a fucking 14 year old making that decision because it is not unlikely that that kid just made a huge fucking mistake that will make life extremely shitting for the foreseeable future.

Cynic · Post by **Cynic** » Wed Dec 14, 2011 8:42 am

I understood what he meant. I was talking about the science used behind the situation while agreeing (probably not as forcefully as i felt) with him about how I felt, THe ambivalence that is.

Before we go on further into this, I've heard people commenting that this isn't cosmetic surgery but medically necessary procedures. What "ailment" is this supposed to be treating? Is there a name for it?

RobbyPants · Post by **RobbyPants** » Wed Dec 14, 2011 2:43 pm

Cynic wrote:I've kinda started throwing in random bits of info to my 5 year old that sometimes people don't feel like what they look like.

My wife and I are trying to figure out appropriate levels of detail to to into with your three-year-old. My brother is gay, and some of my wife's extended family members are as well. We want her to be aware that not every family looks like hers, but at the same time, we don't want to open the floodgates to other questions.

She asks "why" to the most mundane things as it is!

DSMatticus wrote: It's not helped by the fact that the sooner you start the more successful it is. On one hand, starting early alters your development more; on the other hand, young people are stupid.

Exactly. This could be restated: on the plus side, starting early alters your development more; on the negative side, starting early alters your development more.

It's great if you made the "right" decision. It sucks if you change your mind.

Cynic · Post by **Cynic** » Wed Dec 14, 2011 9:43 pm

Robby: The mundane things are the ones that need answers. Sure, they can get a little uncomfortable, but sometimes that is necessary. If it is too hard a problem to provide an answer, then I try to divert them to issues that are similar but can be addressed.

RobbyPants · Post by **RobbyPants** » Wed Dec 14, 2011 11:22 pm

Cynic wrote:Robby: The mundane things are the ones that need answers. Sure, they can get a little uncomfortable, but sometimes that is necessary. If it is too hard a problem to provide an answer, then I try to divert them to issues that are similar but can be addressed.

I agree. I just said that because anything complicated will likely be worse!

Maj · Post by **Maj** » Wed Dec 14, 2011 11:28 pm

Can't you just say that her uncle loves a guy(s)? I agree that the subject should be addressed, but shouldn't it be addressed like it's normal and OK?

Some people have blond hair, some have black. Some people have boobs and some don't. Some people are fat and some people are skinny. Some people have dark skin and some have light. Some men love men and some love women (and the inverse).

Relevant [interesting] article

Cynic · Post by **Cynic** » Thu Dec 15, 2011 12:02 am

Maj: The problem is the information provided by others outside the house. For example, both Steph and I are atheists. We have informed Uma about that. Of course, my family is insanely religious Hindus. We've mentioned the difference between the two. A part of my wife's family is also insanely religious Christians. So my kid has decided that she will be all three.

We've mentioned that she can totally be what she wanted to be. So to us she's an atheist. To my parents, she's a hindu. To my in-laws she's quasi christian. Only because they know that we're atheists. My parents don't know.

As she grows up, she'll discover what she wants to be. Until then, I don't know...

DSMatticus · Post by **DSMatticus** » Thu Dec 15, 2011 12:14 am

@Maj, I've actually read that article. I was under the impression that the point was that explicitly pointing out the difference and then explaining why it's okay was actually more effective?

Of all those Vittrup told to talk openly about interracial friendship, only six families managed to actually do so. And, for all six, their children dramatically improved their racial attitudes in a single week. Talking about race was clearly key.

The problem was that "being different is okay" is too vague and general for kids to apply to specific groups. On the flip side, just mentioning groups is bad too. There was a similar article (I read it at the same time as this one for a writing course some time ago) that showed you can create arbitrary categories and kids will naturally start discriminating along those categories. Once you point out distinctions to children, they will attribute meaning to them whether you want them to or not. So just saying "there are people with dark skin, there are people with white skin," won't lead them to the value judgment (both are okay) you want. They'll invent their own value judgments or use the ones they observe from other people. You also just can't not point out categories, because it's not a vacuum and kids are going to pick up on those categories all on their own as long as society is talking about them.

If you don't talk about it at all, kids are going to notice it anyway.

If you say, "it's okay to be different," kids aren't going to apply that to specific differences.

if you say "this specific difference exists," no matter how casually or non-judgmentally you try to say it, kids aren't going to understand that you're deliberately being non-judgmental and they're going to adopt judgments they see elsewhere.

If you say, "this specific difference exists, and it's completely okay for people to be different like that because it doesn't mean anything," then kids get that you are specifically talking about that exact thing, and they understand that you are telling them not to make judgments based on that. And since they trust you more than what they randomly observe in society, they will listen to that.

Basically, kids are really observant but not very good at putting two and two together. Kids can see the categories in society, and they can see that different categories get treated differently, and they're going to adopt that sort of behavior unless you explicitly tell them otherwise. You should say, "uncle loves a guy, and that's not a bad thing. [Some people judge him for that, but it's wrong.] (Probably needs to be older for this particular part of the discussion.)" If you only tell them half, they won't infer the other half for you.

Maj · Post by **Maj** » Thu Dec 15, 2011 1:18 am

DSMatticus wrote:The problem was that "being different is okay" is too vague and general for kids to apply to specific groups.

I'm not sure how you translated my "some men love men and some love women" as something as vague as "being different is OK." And I'm not sure how you missed that those things I listed should be addressed like it's normal and OK, either. Obviously I miscommunicated.

Regardless, I was inspired by a book [written by the authors of that article I linked to] to discuss with my son specific differences being OK. And we do. From penises to brown skin, we've had some interesting discussions, and we've been having them since long before he could talk.

Whatever · Post by **Whatever** » Thu Dec 15, 2011 1:19 am

Cynic wrote:Before we go on further into this, I've heard people commenting that this isn't cosmetic surgery but medically necessary procedures. What "ailment" is this supposed to be treating? Is there a name for it?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gender_identity_disorder but that's from the DSM IV. I've read that they are considering changing it for the DSM V (the same way they stopped listing Homosexuality as a mental "disorder").

Most of the stories like that article tend to be about a kid who basically from as soon as they could talk was asserting the gender/sex mismatch. After 10 years, I can imagine the parents taking it seriously, even if the kid is only 14.

DSMatticus · Post by **DSMatticus** » Thu Dec 15, 2011 2:10 am

Maj wrote:I'm not sure how you translated my "some men love men and some love women" as something as vague as "being different is OK." And I'm not sure how you missed that those things I listed should be addressed like it's normal and OK, either. Obviously I miscommunicated.

Well, I was rehashing the entire spectrum of possibilities in one go, and most of them didn't apply to you but I wanted to mention them for completeness's sake. The only one of the bunch that specifically applied to what you'd said was:

DSM wrote:if you say "this specific difference exists," no matter how casually or non-judgmentally you try to say it, kids aren't going to understand that you're deliberately being non-judgmental and they're going to adopt judgments they see elsewhere.

Of course, I'm not even entirely sure that applies to you. I wasn't sure what you meant by "address it like it's normal and OK," and I was just using your phrasing ("some men love men, some love women") as my basis. If there's an implied, "and that's completely okay and normal" on the end of each of those, then yeah, there's no difference between what I said and what you were suggesting at all.

Otherwise, I'm pointing out the difference between "discussing categories of people non-judgmentally (and leaving children to infer the unimportance)," and "explicitly telling your children to be non-judgmental about categories of people (and discussing why)." Both are strategies people actually use, and the second seems to be more effective at approaching the topic.

Maj · Post by **Maj** » Thu Dec 15, 2011 2:31 am

Gotcha.

RadiantPhoenix · Post by **RadiantPhoenix** » Thu Dec 15, 2011 3:30 am

DSMatticus wrote:The problem was that "being different is okay" is too vague and general for kids to apply to specific groups. On the flip side, just mentioning groups is bad too. There was a similar article (I read it at the same time as this one for a writing course some time ago) that showed you can create arbitrary categories and kids will naturally start discriminating along those categories. Once you point out distinctions to children, they will attribute meaning to them whether you want them to or not. So just saying "there are people with dark skin, there are people with white skin," won't lead them to the value judgment (both are okay) you want. They'll invent their own value judgments or use the ones they observe from other people. You also just can't not point out categories, because it's not a vacuum and kids are going to pick up on those categories all on their own as long as society is talking about them.

I don't know that that's just true of children...